Official Wazzu Thread: At least we have this going for us: 6-0 vs. Cougars since 2010

[sancho]

1. If Whitt says another time that the Pac-12 is hard and that we don't have the depth, he needs to go! The constant whine of this line of talk is getting old. There is some truth, but I don't hear Sark, RichRod, Graham say this more than on one or two occasions. The more he talks about it, the more the players buy into it, and the downward spiral continues(I might have posted this same thing last year). Stop talking about failure, and start talking about how you are going to change things. We have been in the thick of things in many of the games, but I think Whitt's sphincter puckering is holding the team back.

I agree 100%. Time to retire that excuse.



2. As the year unfolded, the two most important games of the season were the Arizona game and today's game. And both times we came out flatter than 4 day old roadkill. We needed to follow up the Stanford win with another W to show that we were not pretenders, and we needed today to have a chance at bowl eligibility. Trend this back to the Colorado game in 2011 and the Washington and Arizona games in 2012, and I am starting to have real concern about the coaches ability to get the team prepared and not uptight out the gate.


How many times have we given up a TD on the opening drive? Maddening.



8. If we don't let a few assistants go this offseason, we are in trouble. This staff desperately needs an injection of new ideas, esp on the defensive side of the ball.

I don't know what to think about this. Our defense has been so good at times this year. I can understand struggling with our zone, and maybe we do need to bring in someone to teach this. But why could we not get a pass rush going today when we've been so good at it all season?

[Jarid in Cedar]

I agree 100%. Time to retire that excuse.



How many times have we given up a TD on the opening drive? Maddening.



I don't know what to think about this. Our defense has been so good at times this year. I can understand struggling with our zone, and maybe we do need to bring in someone to teach this. But why could we not get a pass rush going today when we've been so good at it all season?


Getting a pass rush against a quick throw offense is difficult. Running zone against the quick passing game is the way to go. The rush can get there if the QB doesn't have an opening to throw the qucik hit or slant. Tuiaki, Scalley, Shah, and Sitake are a solid group so I can't say that I want one of them gone, but we need some fresh blood, new ideas.

[Rocker Ute]

We're down 6, have WSU on 3rd and long and just need a stop with 5 minutes to go in the game. I swear to you when and my son can verify that when we lined up to rush 3 and put the rest in a zone I said to my son, "They're going to strike and get a first down and likely some massive yardage..." sure enough... all the way to the end zone and the game was over. Why the hell did we do that when we were getting burned all day when we put out that defense. Any situation where Halliday had time in the pocket and their receivers could exploit our soft zone we got nailed.

That was unforgivable in my mind.

My wife was happy, we were going to dinner as soon as the game ended, so I flipped off the TV and ate my weight in nachos at Porcupine Grill.

At least the Runnin' Utes won tonight. I'm done with football the rest of the year.

[OrangeUte]

It's hard to not go bowling again. We need the work. I'm not on the edge when it comes to whit. But I am really close. He's simply falling apart and not playing to win. We look scared and desperate. We can go, in his own words, "toe to toe with the best of this conference." Let's fucking do it. We play with no swagger and very little confidence. That's a big difference. We need to play with the knowledge that we belong.

Now we need to work on keeping Erickson so we have continuity through the off season and into next year. We need to do this because if we don't then our identity shifts again. We are whits team on defense but on offense he has given us no identity at all. He constantly steals great athletes from the offensive side of the ball and puts them on defense. Other coaches have let him. Erickson will fight for his offensive players. But we have to get him invested in being here. If not, I have no idea what the answer is.

[UTEopia]

Now we need to work on keeping Erickson so we have continuity through the off season and into next year. We need to do this because if we don't then our identity shifts again. We are whits team on defense but on offense he has given us no identity at all. He constantly steals great athletes from the offensive side of the ball and puts them on defense. Other coaches have let him. Erickson will fight for his offensive players. But we have to get him invested in being here. If not, I have no idea what the answer is.

If someone told me before the game that the Utes would score 37 points, I would have thought the Utes win going away. Watching the game I got the feeling that the Utes would come back but they never could get over the hump. I know the two pick 6 were critical and if you do the math, the Utes win without those. However, I don't think it is that simple. As with OSU, the Utes had no answers defensively. They couldn't get any pressure rushing 4, a problem that has existed throughout the year, and they couldn't cover when they blitzed and even then they could not get to the QB. Like OSU, this is a team loss and it looks to me that although the Utes have enough talent to come close, they don't have enough talent to win.

Back-to-back years with no bowl game sucks and it will not get any easier next year. I thought the Utes had a tough non-conference schedule this year but Michigan > BYU and Fresno > than USU at least looking at it now.

The Utes need major upgrades at the skill positions on both offense and defense. I know KW and the other coaches will take a lot of heat for this season and ultimately they have the responsibility to win. However, unlike the situation with Mac where I thought his teams underperformed their collective talent, I think the Utes have mostly played to their talent level. I don't see this as a situation where a different coach like Urban Meyer could come in a turn the team around.


Orange, I take exception to your comment that Whit takes great players away from the offense and puts them on defense. I can't think of a single player on the current defense who was going to play offense and I have a hard time remembering any in the past. Guys who moved from offense to defense like Sean Smith, Ryan Lacy and Moe Lee did so because they were not contributing on offense and I really don't think we know whether they would have been "great" offensive players. I am pretty sure Blechen was never going to be a D1 QB so his move doesn't fit either. I do agree that keeping DE is critical and that selecting and staying with an offensive identity is critical.

I also think it is critical that we have QB's in the system that all can run the same offense. I think it hurts when QB read option is a big part of the offense and then you cannot run it because you go to the backup QB. I don't necessarily think that you need to run the QB read option because of the injury potential to the QB, but if you are, No. 2 better be able to do what No. 1 does.

This will be a long offseason.

[LA Ute]

Getting a pass rush against a quick throw offense is difficult. Running zone against the quick passing game is the way to go. The rush can get there if the QB doesn't have an opening to throw the qucik hit or slant. Tuiaki, Scalley, Shah, and Sitake are a solid group so I can't say that I want one of them gone, but we need some fresh blood, new ideas.

Reilly said after the game that it was hard to pass rush when Halliday got rid of the ball so quickly. He sounded very frustrated. There must be a way to scheme that --but whatever we did today wasn't it.

I'm tired of the "PAC-12 is a tough league" excuse too. As for assistants, one problem with hiring your friends is that it's hard to fire them. It'll be interesting to see what happens after December 2.

[SeattleUte]

Wilson was a walk on last year?

Okay, we got it backwards. Last year we started with a walkon and ended up with true freshman.

[OrangeUte]

You may be right about the players converting from offense to defense.

Gotta keep Erickson. I see that as a huge goal in the off season.

[sancho]

Okay, we got it backwards. Last year we started with a walkon and ended up with true freshman.

We've now flushed every permutation of bad out of our system and will return to normal next year (normal being a QB controversy between an experienced but interception prone junior and an untested red-shirt freshman with a famous QB name).

[sancho]

Gotta keep Erickson. I see that as a huge goal in the off season.

Is there concern that it won't happen? I thought it was more or less a given?

[OrangeUte]

Is there concern that it won't happen? I thought it was more or less a given?

No idea. I haven't heard anything but I keep waiting for him I get offered another job.

[sancho]

No idea. I haven't heard anything but I keep waiting for him I get offered another job.

I can't imagine our offense has impressed anyone all that much, but I guess it happened with Chow.

[OrangeUte]

I can't imagine our offense has impressed anyone all that much, but I guess it happened with Chow.

I had heard speculation of unlv being a possible spot for him. But they are now bowl eligible so it might not happen with that school. Who knows what might happen but we need a coach to give is an offensive identity.

[jrj84105]

You may be right about the players converting from offense to defense.

Gotta keep Erickson. I see that as a huge goal in the off season.

That's a given. I'm not sure even KW's biggest supporters want him to make another OC hire. If DE goes, so does KW.

[jrj84105]

I also think it is critical that we have QB's in the system that all can run the same offense.
I've had a very hard time convincing anyone of this critical point. When you have 3 QB's on your team who are each suited to a different system, you don't have an offense that is 3 deep at QB, you have three offenses that are each 1 deep. An injury means both a personnel change and a system change. This can't happen as we've seen. This is why I was so disappointed in our QB recruiting last year- BJ and crew stayed true to form in picking a variety pack rather than trying to find system QBs.

I really think that DE nailed what the best possible offensive identity should be for Utah. He only had enough players to fill the one deep though. Our natural recruiting pool lends itself to TE's, FB's, and big O-linemen with little in the way of receivers or speedy backs. That sets us up to run a pro style offense. The schools that succeed with a pro style offense, however, are your elite schools that routinely have a talent advantage. It's a complicated system, and just generally doesn't work well for teams at any kind of talent disadvantage. So not having the speed or talent at the skill positions required to run the spread option (Oregon) or spread to pass (WSU), where does it leave us?

Well, DE and Urban before him showed that this personnel does really well with the spread to run offense which is absolutely predicated on the read option. It is the single most important play in this offense, and Urban's staff at OSU will say that like it's gospel. Now that defenses are downsizing, this offense, especially when we can run multiple TE sets, creates mismatches in space in the passing game so we are still executing spread principles in the passing game. The downside is the risk of injury, but the impact of these injuries would be far less had we recruited to the system. We should be able to successfully recruit these QB's because tweeners who are a just a little better than average at both running and passing will do just fine.

Schulz belongs in a spread to pass offense. Connor Manning belongs in a spread to pass offense. Thomas is a DB. That leaves us with Cox and hopefully Isom capable of running DE's offense, meaning we are only two deep next year. That is unacceptable.

[Viking]

I'm guessing Pac12 gear sales will plummet in SLC.

BYU's team would be 0-8 the Pac12. They have mastered mediocrity and will get blown up by OSU or UA in the "bowl" game. You can just see the lack of belief that they can win at the outset of every non-cream puff game. And UT was a total fluke...UT would not give up the points they did if the game were held today.

Utah's risk is that recruits decide they'd prefer to play for a non cellar dweller, even if that cellar is the mansion of the Pac12 (see Kansas, WSU, Illinois).

BYU will remain mediocre as long as Bronco is around. He's not a bad coach, but BYU with Whit this season is undefeated or one-loss.

[Diehard Ute]

BYU will remain mediocre as long as Bronco is around. He's not a bad coach, but BYU with Whit this season is undefeated or one-loss.

I have a friend who played at BYU, and was on the team when Bronco was brought in.

He does not speak highly of him at all and has told me he regrets going there and wishes he had gone to Utah.

[U-Ute]

1. If Whitt says another time that the Pac-12 is hard and that we don't have the depth, he needs to go! The constant whine of this line of talk is getting old. There is some truth, but I don't hear Sark, RichRod, Graham say this more than on one or two occasions. The more he talks about it, the more the players buy into it, and the downward spiral continues(I might have posted this same thing last year). Stop talking about failure, and start talking about how you are going to change things. We have been in the thick of things in many of the games, but I think Whitt's sphincter puckering is holding the team back.

I think we have a lot more talent than we used to, but we're still lacking in some areas. Most notably QB and LB. Losing your QB mid-season is hard, but it is a season killer if you don't have any depth. We've all noted our issues here. Hale and Norris have been improvements for us at LB this year. I think that losing Norris for this game hurt us, as well as loosing Hooker for the season. We just don't have the depth that has the speed we need.

EDIT: I would also add DB to the list. There is a notable step down once you get to Honeycutt and Chappuis.


3. We do not know how to play zone. I have been pounding this drum since our struggles against the pass in 2010. When you play teams that throw as often and as well as we see in this conference, we need to be able to play zone effectively. At this point, any zone that we played means that we have guys standing around to tackle the guy after he completes the pass.

We don't have the speed at LB to play it effectively against good quarterbacks and receivers. One play in particular highlights that: Whittingham got burned playing man-to-man on the one skinny post play that the ball was overthrown. He was 2 steps behind the receiver. The windows in a zone defense become bigger when you're slower.


I've had a very hard time convincing anyone of this critical point. When you have 3 QB's on your team who are each suited to a different system, you don't have an offense that is 3 deep at QB, you have three offenses that are each 1 deep. An injury means both a personnel change and a system change. This can't happen as we've seen. This is why I was so disappointed in our QB recruiting last year- BJ and crew stayed true to form in picking a variety pack rather than trying to find system QBs.

This is my biggest beef with Kyle and, in my mind, is another hint that he hasn't fully committed to the spread offense. This lack of commitment is hurting us because we have half a team that's built for the spread offense and half a team that's suited for a pro-style offense. That means we have a team that can run neither.

[UtahDan]

Okay, we got it backwards. Last year we started with a walkon and ended up with true freshman.

To me the bigger issue with this is that we can't keep a starter healthy. That is the problem with running QBs at every level of the game.

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[LA Ute]

This is my biggest beef with Kyle and, in my mind, is another hint that he hasn't fully committed to the spread offense. This lack of commitment is hurting us because we have half a team that's built for the spread offense and half a team that's suited for a pro-style offense. That means we have a team that can run neither.

To me this seems to be the strongest evidence that offense is something of an afterthought to Kyle, or at least a lower priority. Or maybe he just doesn't "get" offense.

[UtahDan]

Also, I think it's worth noting that apart from a couple of bad picks in his second start (which i think is forgivable for ANY underclassman in his second start) the offense looked good.

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[Diehard Ute]

In one of Lya's better blog entries lately she discusses the need for upgrades at the skill positions. Especially WR and DB. Kyle also admitted that we have to recruit the skill positions far better to compete

[Solon]

The only good that came out of the game today was that high frustration allowed me to kick out 56 miles on my trainer while watching the game( 28 of them in the first hour after the first pick 6!).


2. As the year unfolded, the two most important games of the season were the Arizona game and today's game. And both times we came out flatter than 4 day old roadkill. We needed to follow up the Stanford win with another W to show that we were not pretenders, and we needed today to have a chance at bowl eligibility. Trend this back to the Colorado game in 2011 and the Washington and Arizona games in 2012, and I am starting to have real concern about the coaches ability to get the team prepared and not uptight out the gate.

8. If we don't let a few assistants go this offseason, we are in trouble. This staff desperately needs an injection of new ideas, esp on the defensive side of the ball.


#2 is what I find to be the most discouraging. I would put the ASU game ahead of the AZ game. We HAD to have that game; coming off of a bye, 2-game losing streak. Home game. It was the perfect opportunity to unleash hell. Instead, we got that 20-19 loss. Historically, Whit has known all of the right buttons to push to get teams ready for a big game. I wonder if the team checked out on him before yesterday.

As for #8, I think we'll learn a lot about Whit by how he decides to clean house.

[USS Utah]

#2 is what I find to be the most discouraging. I would put the ASU game ahead of the AZ game. We HAD to have that game; coming off of a bye, 2-game losing streak. Home game. It was the perfect opportunity to unleash hell. Instead, we got that 20-19 loss. Historically, Whit has known all of the right buttons to push to get teams ready for a big game. I wonder if the team checked out on him before yesterday.

I imagine UCLA fans are feeling similar after last night.

[LA Ute]

I imagine UCLA fans are feeling similar after last night.

Do you really think UCLA's season is comparable to ours?

Anyway, there is certainly lots of emotion behind fans' concerns (I haven't looked at UF.net yet but I'm sure there was quite a meltdown there). The discussion here is about Whit's body of work. Do you disagree that based on that body of work, the jury is still out as to whether Whit has what it takes to succeed on the PAC-12? I now have less confidence than I did after the Stanford game that the verdict will be positive. Still, as a Utah fan nothing would make me happier than to see Whit become a huge success.

[USS Utah]

Do you really think UCLA's season is comparable to ours?

Anyway, there is certainly lots of emotion behind fans' concerns (I haven't looked at UF.net yet but I'm sure there was quite a meltdown there). The discussion here is about Whit's body of work. Do you disagree that based on that body of work, the jury is still out as to whether Whit has what it takes to succeed on the PAC-12? I now have less confidence than I did after the Stanford game that the verdict will be positive. Still, as a Utah fan nothing would make me happier than to see Whit become a huge success.

Last night cost UCLA a 3rd straight south division title. Last night should have been an opportunity for UCLA to "unleash hell." Instead they got a 38-33 loss. The Bruins didn't have a bye the week before, but they had more to play for.

I didn't say UCLA fans probably felt exactly the same, I used the word "similar" for a reason.

Does Whit have what it takes? I don't know. Does Whit have the same structure and support as the teams he is competing against? I believe Utah is still working to close the gap; they just got a new, state of the art football faclity, so they're moving in a good direction.

I think, in addition to closing the gap, what Whit needs is time? He figured this would take five years, and I haven't seen anything to suggest it could happen faster.

[sancho]

the jury is still out as to whether Whit has what it takes to succeed on the PAC-12?

Is that true of every Pac-12 coach other than Shaw?

[LA Ute]

Is that true of every Pac-12 coach other than Shaw?

Not if you define success a having a winning conference record. Lots of them have done that. Like I said, I fervently hope Kyle does too.

[sancho]

Not if you define success a having a winning conference record. Lots of them have done that. Like I said, I fervently hope Kyle does too.

Well, don't worry. I'll give you a 70% guarantee that we finish 5-4 or better in conference next season.