The Kyle Whittingham Thread

[SoCalPat]

Three months ago, the idea of Kyle being on the hot seat was to be entertained, but not taken too seriously. Back-to-back 5-7 seasons will do that to any coach. Most coaches with lesser resumes would have been fired.

I would say since then Kyle's seat has gotten warmer. I have not been excited about the hits the program has taken as of late. We're losing mission kids, we're not making inroads in the state's top talent and our recruiting in California is no different than what it was when we were in the MWC; in fact, it may be worse (Recruiting geeks, please, make some arguments to the contrary). We just got a verbal from a kid whose lone FBS offer was San Jose State. I'm puzzled by this. If this recruit truly is all that, then we have to spend a lot of time fending off other schools -- and could lose him anyway (see: Huff, Josh; Henderson, Ryan). If he's not, he'll be there in February if we really want him. Shouldn't we be offering more polished prospects?

I don't believe I'm falling victim to the star system -- our team ranking in recruiting with relation to our conference peers has pretty much been in line with our conference finish for over a decade -- we were one of the better recruiting MWC teams, we're easily one of the bottom four recruiting teams in the Pac-12. As much as I think "recruiting news" is an oxymoron on the individual level, Rivals and Scout are pretty good with making broader assessments at the team level.

Much like Kyle delivered when everything was lined up in 2008, he's gotta bounce back when everyone is counting him out. We have never had a season under Kyle where we were being written off so far in advance. Kyle could use this to his advantage, but unlike the close calls last year, we need wins. I fully expect Kyle to be gone if we go 5-7 with Travis starting 10 or more games. If we have QB health issues again, the direction we go in becomes a much tougher call.

Fortunately, if Travis starts 12, we win a minimum of 8. I still believe in Kyle, down as I am about the aforementioned issues. If we win, we'll recruit better. But we gotta get this turned around this year. If we get to 7 total wins, I think Kyle is safe. Anything less than that, even 6-7 with a bowl loss, is really dicey. This season would have to be exceptionally cruel for us to keep Kyle without going to a bowl. If DEFCON 5 is Lane Kiffin speaking with Pat Haden at the airport, it's safe to say Kyle's status is already at DEFCON 3 and rising. But damn, this team needs a shot of good mojo. Past Travis, we haven't had any in some time.

[DrumNFeather]

I think I fall in the camp of folks (a shrinking group probably) that believes his seat is not nearly as warm as others might think. The national media still seems to really respect Kyle, and that to me is a better measure of how warm his seat might be, at least to my view, versus what the local media is pushing for or indicating. Plus, I totally buy into the money part of this thing and being "full members" along with the whole 4 full years thing he first noted when we moved to the conference.

Short of the bottom completely falling out (which I would qualify as 2-3 wins), I think we have Kyle back next season...feels like he's earned the opportunity to turn this thing around.

I agree with you that recruiting has been the toughest nut to crack here for Utah. In the past it seems like they could take a kid like this commit they just got and develop him into a nice player. These days the depth just doesn't exist on our team to be able to do that, so you're looking for more impact guys to go along with your established talents. Seems to me that they just haven't figured out how to balance going after top in-state talent, and bringing in guys from other states. I love the enroads we've made in states like Florida and Louisiana, but we need those guys to 1) Qualify, 2) Stick with the program, and 3) Breakthrough.

As for this year, the schedule again is a gauntlet, but there are some opportunities to get wins early. A competent QB beats Wazzu last year, IMO, so I'm in the camp of those that believe we need a minimum of a 3-1 start in those first four.

I agree with your comment on mojo...it felt like that was turning around with all the reports on Paul before he got hurt, so hopefully he can make it back to have an impact on the season.

[Applejack]

California recruiting has certainly not gotten worse since we joined the Pac - we used to recruit some real nobodies (Weddle, Smith, et al). It's actually pretty similar to what it used to be - we get kids that don't get offers at USC/UCLA/Stanford/Cal. In the MWC, we still had to compete with Colorado St, SDSU, SJSU for kids. Back in the day we went nuts if we beat Colorado for a recruit. Now we're pissed.

I think recruiting has fundamentally changed in a number of areas, though.

1. We don't recruit Texas as well as we used to. This is due to a lot of factors: other teams have figured out that Texas is a good place to recruit (Wisconsin, etc); we don't play at TCU every other year so we can't promise a "homecoming"; we don't have a stable of Texas kids that can welcome the new recruits.
2. We can be successful with the second tier guys in Florida and Louisiana. In the MWC we had no chance with these guys - we'd lose anyone to FAMU.
3. We have not improved in-state recruiting as much as I had hoped that we would. I thought that Pac-12 membership would really let us compete with mormon recruits who would have always chosen BYU in the past; and I think it has. I don't think we get Chase Hansen, Jake Murphy, etc if we're in the MWC. But we have been getting killled by other Pac-12 teams coming to Utah and using our old line of "we will play in front of your family and friends every other year, but you can get away from your hometown for college." I underestimated the recruiting advantage that our joining the Pac-12 would give to other Pac schools recruiting in Utah.

[DrumNFeather]

California recruiting has certainly not gotten worse since we joined the Pac - we used to recruit some real nobodies (Weddle, Smith, et al). It's actually pretty similar to what it used to be - we get kids that don't get offers at USC/UCLA/Stanford/Cal. In the MWC, we still had to compete with Colorado St, SDSU, SJSU for kids. Back in the day we went nuts if we beat Colorado for a recruit. Now we're pissed.

I think recruiting has fundamentally changed in a number of areas, though.

1. We don't recruit Texas as well as we used to. This is due to a lot of factors: other teams have figured out that Texas is a good place to recruit (Wisconsin, etc); we don't play at TCU every other year so we can't promise a "homecoming"; we don't have a stable of Texas kids that can welcome the new recruits.
2. We can be successful with the second tier guys in Florida and Louisiana. In the MWC we had no chance with these guys - we'd lose anyone to FAMU.
3. We have not improved in-state recruiting as much as I had hoped that we would. I thought that we Pac-12 membership would really let us compete with mormon recruits who would have always chosen BYU in the past; and I think it has. I don't think we get Chase Hansen, Jake Murphy, etc if we're in the MWC. But we have been getting killled by other Pac-12 teams coming to Utah and using our old line of "we will play in front of your family and friends every other year, but you can get away from your hometown for college." I underestimated the recruiting advantage that our joining the Pac-12 would give to other Pac schools recruiting in Utah.

To your final point...

I think the Gary Anderson factor is a part of that too. So now you have all the other Pac 12 schools plus Wisconsin that are actively recruiting the state of Utah, plus the BYU lifers. Makes for an interesting challenge for Whit & Co.

I seem to remember (and this may be perceived and not real) that Utah would have a kid on their radar, make an offer, and then almost immediately other programs would swoop in and offer once the kid comitted to the Utes, so it just seems harder to hang on to some of those gems that we've had in the past.

All that said, the coaches need to figure this one out. Having DE and DC here I think will help. Perhaps it is time to bring in a solid national recruiter on the defensive side of the ball as well.

[Applejack]

To your final point...

I think the Gary Anderson factor is a part of that too. So now you have all the other Pac 12 schools plus Wisconsin that are actively recruiting the state of Utah, plus the BYU lifers. Makes for an interesting challenge for Whit & Co.

I seem to remember (and this may be perceived and not real) that Utah would have a kid on their radar, make an offer, and then almost immediately other programs would swoop in and offer once the kid comitted to the Utes, so it just seems harder to hang on to some of those gems that we've had in the past.

All that said, the coaches need to figure this one out. Having DE and DC here I think will help. Perhaps it is time to bring in a solid national recruiter on the defensive side of the ball as well.

I agree on Gary Andersen. I like the guy, but Wisconsin is my second most hated team now. I want them to lose and lose badly.

[sancho]

I'm puzzled by this. If this recruit truly is all that, then we have to spend a lot of time fending off other schools -- and could lose him anyway (see: Huff, Josh; Henderson, Ryan). If he's not, he'll be there in February if we really want him. Shouldn't we be offering more polished prospects?


The idea here is to win points by being the first to offer. That QB who supposedly narrowed it down to USC and Utah (did he choose yet?) says it means a lot to him that Utah was his first offer. At the time we offered, I'm guessing he looked like any other unwanted 2 star kid.

AJ is right - we aren't going to start landing 4 star kids out of CA. We are way too far down on the totem pole for that.

As for the Utah kids, we all know that winning is the only way to keep them here. And Wisconsin losing.

[sancho]

I agree on Gary Andersen. I like the guy, but Wisconsin is my second most hated team now. I want them to lose and lose badly.

He's got it pretty easy too. Have you seen the schedules he gets to play against? They are only slightly tougher than BYUs. And they're getting easier with Maryland and Rutgers joining that watered down conference. He has 8 games built in to his schedule that the top 22 posters on this site could probably win.

[DrumNFeather]

The idea here is to win points by being the first to offer. That QB who supposedly narrowed it down to USC and Utah (did he choose yet?) says it means a lot to him that Utah was his first offer. At the time we offered, I'm guessing he looked like any other unwanted 2 star kid.

AJ is right - we aren't going to start landing 4 star kids out of CA. We are way too far down on the totem pole for that.

As for the Utah kids, we all know that winning is the only way to keep them here. And Wisconsin losing.

It also feels like we've been snake-bit a little on some of our bigger recruits. Who was the last four star that we signed that had a meaningful impact on the team? Feels like at least a few of those guys have either not panned out or have had to retire due to injury, or left due to homesickness etc...

[Applejack]

It also feels like we've been snake-bit a little on some of our bigger recruits. Who was the last four star that we signed that had a meaningful impact on the team? Feels like at least a few of those guys have either not panned out or have had to retire due to injury, or left due to homesickness etc...

I agree with snake-bittedness of our team, but that is a reflection of the lack of depth due to recruiting difficulties. Losing Kenneth Scott absolutely decimated our offense last year, but it shouldn't have. There should be other good receivers on the team.

[sancho]

He's got it pretty easy too. Have you seen the schedules he gets to play against? They are only slightly tougher than BYUs. And they're getting easier with Maryland and Rutgers joining that watered down conference. He has 8 games built in to his schedule that the top 22 posters on this site could probably win.

More ranting:

How charismatic is this guy anyway? I understand that you like GA, kid, but is he really so much more likeable than Whitt, Riley, Sark, Graham, RichRod, etc that it's worth 4 years of your life in WI just to be his buddy? You are selling your soul - a chance to play in the greatest conference in the land - for a mess of frozen pottage.

[Hot Lunch]

I have to agree with SoCalPat on this. The seat is increasingly getting hotter and hotter for Whitt. Pat makes a few good points that I have to agree with.

One of the biggest disappointments that I have had is our inability to keep the best kids in the state home. This is one of the key things that Utah has to be successful at in order to compete in this conference. If we can't win the recruiting battles for the best local talent then how do we expect to win the talent that will help the program in other states.

Right now, we are loosing to the likes of WAZZU, Oregon St, Colorado and Zona in recruiting battles in other states. These are battles that we have to win. I don't expect to be beating Oregon, UCLA, Stanford, USC and even ASU and UW right now. We still have a ways to go in order to be going head to head with those programs on kids. Right now we are beating MWC teams on kids. Outside of one or two kids that have come from the south, we aren't beating kids down there that have P5 offers as well. I judge kids by the offers they have. In the Mountain West we were able to find a few gems that didn't have any of those offers and they excelled up on the hill. To win in the PAC-12, we have to have bigger, better, more talented athletes. We need to win some of these battles, get them in the program and trust that our coaches can develop them even further. We need depth, and competition at all positions. We can't keep losing recruits to WAZZU, Oregon St., Colorado and Zona.

[Hot Lunch]

I agree with snake-bittedness of our team, but that is a reflection of the lack of depth due to recruiting difficulties. Losing Kenneth Scott absolutely decimated our offense last year, but it shouldn't have. There should be other good receivers on the team.

This probably pissed me off the most about last season. Kenneth Scott is good. Really good. His injury IMO cost us at least 2 wins. He makes that big of an impact on games. The fact that we didn't have some behind He and Dres to step in and be a player blew me away.

[Applejack]

Let's take a vote. If the Utes go 5-7 this year (very likely, in my esteemed opinion), does Kyle get shown the door? Not SHOULD he be fired, but WILL he?

I say no. Hill gives him a one-year, bowl or bust ultimatum.

[DrumNFeather]

Let's take a vote. If the Utes go 5-7 this year (very likely, in my esteemed opinion), does Kyle get shown the door? Not SHOULD he be fired, but WILL he?

I say no. Hill gives him a one-year, bowl or bust ultimatum.

I agree. Another 5-7 season and he is still here with a very hot seat.

[sancho]

I have to agree with SoCalPat on this. The seat is increasingly getting hotter and hotter for Whitt. Pat makes a few good points that I have to agree with.

There is no doubt the seat is getting hotter. The media and the fans control hot seat temperatures. Media will always be happy to fan the flames of a hot seat. And more and more fans are willing to roll the dice on a new coach. A couple of good hires in the conference lately have made us forget how common it is for a team in our position to make an unsuccessful hire.

[UBlender]

I agree. Another 5-7 season and he is still here with a very hot seat.

I also agree. If Utah goes 5-7 and competes well then he gets one more year with (hopefully) some continuity at QB and OC for the first time in forever.

[Sullyute]

Let's take a vote. If the Utes go 5-7 this year (very likely, in my esteemed opinion), does Kyle get shown the door?

I vote No.

[sancho]

Let's take a vote. If the Utes go 5-7 this year (very likely, in my esteemed opinion), does Kyle get shown the door? Not SHOULD he be fired, but WILL he?

I say no. Hill gives him a one-year, bowl or bust ultimatum.

Does it depend on the 5 wins? Does ISU, FSU, CU, WSU, and Arizona/OSU look different than ISU, FSU, Michigan, CU, and USC?

Does it depend on injuries and other decent excuses?

I don't know the answers. Firing a good coach takes a certain amount of mob mentality, and mobs are not known for rational thinking.

[Applejack]

Does it depend on the 5 wins? Does ISU, FSU, CU, WSU, and Arizona/OSU look different than ISU, FSU, Michigan, CU, and USC?

Does it depend on injuries and other decent excuses?

I don't know the answers. Firing a good coach takes a certain amount of mob mentality, and mobs are not known for rational thinking.

I don't think it does, to be honest. If we miss a bowl game this year, no one will care if we beat Washington State and lost to USC or beat USC and lost to WSU. Sure, it was fun to beat Stanford last year, but no one is talking about that game as if it saved Whit's career.

I personally think that Whit is a good coach, but I do think his position is precarious if we don't get six wins this year. And I think it will be very hard to get six given our schedule/linebackers.

[SoCalPat]

Let's take a vote. If the Utes go 5-7 this year (very likely, in my esteemed opinion), does Kyle get shown the door? Not SHOULD he be fired, but WILL he?

I say no. Hill gives him a one-year, bowl or bust ultimatum.

If Travis starts 12 games and is top 5-6 at his position in the league, I don't think an argument exists in keeping him unless you're willing to let his past influence the decision.

[crazyute]

Let's take a vote. If the Utes go 5-7 this year (very likely, in my esteemed opinion), does Kyle get shown the door? Not SHOULD he be fired, but WILL he?

I say no. Hill gives him a one-year, bowl or bust ultimatum.
...

[sancho]

If Travis starts 12 games and is top 5-6 at his position in the league

Pac-12 preseason QB power ranking

1) Mariota
2) Hundley
3) Kelley
4) Mannion
5) Halliday
6) Hogan
7) Wilson
8) Goff
9) Kessler
10) Miles
11) Liufau
12) Arizona QB

Funny thing, if we were in the SEC, Wilson would probably be top 3 this season. Outside of Marshall, there's nobody down south to get excited about this preseason.

[Applejack]

As much as everyone considers Whit an Urban protege, he really isn't. He only coached under Pope Urban for two years. Whitt's real mentor is Rascally Ron McBride. In a lot of ways, the Utah program is still the one that Mac developed.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xxvhw8ehkKc/T6UjuvidxBI/AAAAAAAAFfM/1Oowg02g4Vk/s640/BigFred+020.jpg

Ways in which Whittingham is like McBride:

- It often takes all year to identify the best running back on the team. Crazy Ron used to drive me crazy with his RB rotations. Just this week Whit moved Booker into a co-starting role with Poole. I like Poole, but it's been clear since Q1 of the Idaho State game that Booker has a different gear. It also took Whit until the Fiesta Bowl to figure out that Matt Asiata was NFL material and Darrell Mack was not.
- Recruit offensive players for defense. Ronny Mac should have patented this move. It seemed like he just recruited running backs, and then flipped most of them to DB or LB. Domo is Whit's latest greatest flip.
- Quarterback issues.Mike Fouts. T.D. Croshaw. Tommy Grady. Jon Hays. I could go on.

Ways in which Whttingham is not like McBride:


- He has kickers. Mac's teams always lost a game or two a year because we forgot to have a kicker (St. Daniel Pulsipher excluded). Whit has done a pretty good job of having good kickers/punters on his teams.
- He got rid of the Daffy. Mac loved screwball formations and plays, and they rarely worked. I think one thing that Whit learned from Urban is to use trickery sparingly and surprisingly.
- His teams are more disciplined. We still get penalized a lot, but its usually for pass intereference, something our man coverage forces us to do at times. Mac's teams used to get enough brain-dead personal fouls and late hits to give a young fan the shakes.

[Utah]

I disagree. Booker, for example, has fumbling issues. He has shown he won't fumble, so he has moved up. Whitt wanted Booker to be our #1 and has said so since January. Booker needs to hold onto the ball.

2 - recruiting offense then moving them. Disagree again. In the MWC, Whitt went after HS QB's because they were athletes. A 2 star athletic QB had 4 star safety potential. He wasn't getting 4 star safeties in the MWC. But he knew he could develop one. So he did.

As far as in the PAC-12, who have they recruited then switched? Hatfield? Hatfield was a two way player in HS and an amazing defensive player. Our WR's are deep this year. This just worked out better for Utah and Hatfield.

As far as QB issues go, it's not from a lack of effort. It's more bad luck. In the MWC, you can't have more than 1 QB. The only reason you received a QB was so he could play right away. Wynn getting hurt killed us.

After Whitt's first year in the PAC-12, he signed Wilson and Hansen. The next year was Cox, Manning, Thomas. The next year he brought in Thompson, Thompson, Isom.

So, the QB issue is more MWC team playing BCS football than QB issues. The QB "issue" is more impatience with fans than anything Whitt is doing wrong.

[U-Ute]

As much as everyone considers Whit an Urban protege, he really isn't. He only coached under Pope Urban for two years. Whitt's real mentor is Rascally Ron McBride. In a lot of ways, the Utah program is still the one that Mac developed.

I have always felt that Whittingham is 70% Mac, 20% Urban, 10% Edwards. Yes. Saint LaVell.

It wasn't just kickers that Urban brought, but the overall emphasis on special teams, something that continues today. For example, Mac never used a scholarship for a deep snapper. This is something brought to the program by Urban that has been continued by Whittingham.

The one maddening thing that Whittingham does that Mac did was the "play not to lose" mentality when ahead. I loved the killer mentality Urban brought. Although, that may just be more of a psychological makeup than anything. Meyer has a bit of that "Riverboat Gambler" mentality that neither Whittingham or Mac has.

But that tough, gritty, smashmouth football Kyle is defined by is most certainly influenced by his dad foremost, followed by Mac.

I think that Kyle has a much more even emotional keel than either Mac or Urban had. I think that comes from Edwards.

[U-Ute]

I disagree. Booker, for example, has fumbling issues. He has shown he won't fumble, so he has moved up. Whitt wanted Booker to be our #1 and has said so since January. Booker needs to hold onto the ball.

Fumbling is the quickest way down the depth chart for a RB, but a close second is screwing up pass protection and getting your QB killed.

Poole has been in the program for a year and, consequently, he is better at the pass protection. This is a much more difficult thing for us fans to gauge since we are not aware of the pass protection calls and what the RB's responsibility is on any given play.

[sancho]

The one maddening thing that Whittingham does that Mac did was the "play not to lose" mentality when ahead. I loved the killer mentality Urban brought. Although, that may just be more of a psychological makeup than anything. Meyer has a bit of that "Riverboat Gambler" mentality that neither Whittingham or Mac has.

But that tough, gritty, smashmouth football Kyle is defined by is most certainly influenced by his dad foremost, followed by Mac.


Urban's "killer instinct" was possible because he had superior teams capable of scoring at will. Against more even competition in the SEC and Big10, Urban has had to go conservative many times. Good coaches have to be able to assess the situation. Whittingham has no issue with running up the score when he can. But when he's barely clinging to life against a better team, his QB and TE are injured, and his line can't buy more than a half second of protection, he has to consider trying to run out the clock.

[Applejack]

2 - recruiting offense then moving them. Disagree again. In the MWC, Whitt went after HS QB's because they were athletes. A 2 star athletic QB had 4 star safety potential. He wasn't getting 4 star safeties in the MWC. But he knew he could develop one. So he did.

As far as in the PAC-12, who have they recruited then switched? Hatfield? Hatfield was a two way player in HS and an amazing defensive player. Our WR's are deep this year. This just worked out better for Utah and Hatfield.

Charles Henderson (all-Lousiana WR)
Brian Blechen (QB)
Tavaris Williams (played both ways in HS but was all-state RB)
Marcus Williams (played both ways in HS but was all-state WR)
Brian Allen (if he really does switch to DB)
Nate Orchard (all-state WR, although everyone recruited him for defense)
Daniel Nielsen (played O-line his freshman year)
Greg Reese (TE at junior college)
Marcus Sanders-Williams (RB)
Wallace Gonzalez (did not play DE for the Astros)

[Applejack]

Urban's "killer instinct" was possible because he had superior teams capable of scoring at will. Against more even competition in the SEC and Big10, Urban has had to go conservative many times. Good coaches have to be able to assess the situation. Whittingham has no issue with running up the score when he can. But when he's barely clinging to life against a better team, his QB and TE are injured, and his line can't buy more than a half second of protection, he has to consider trying to run out the clock.

I agree that Whit's and McBride's teams both have been maddening at times in the 4th Quarter (ASU 2013 anyone?). But that's because the teams are always built on defense first, offense dead last. I think that sort of team plays to Utah's recruiting strengths, but it also gives me gray hairs.

[Utah]

Urban's "killer instinct" was possible because he had superior teams capable of scoring at will. Against more even competition in the SEC and Big10, Urban has had to go conservative many times. Good coaches have to be able to assess the situation. Whittingham has no issue with running up the score when he can. But when he's barely clinging to life against a better team, his QB and TE are injured, and his line can't buy more than a half second of protection, he has to consider trying to run out the clock.

I agree 100%. Whitt has played not to lose because his QB was a walkon or an underclassman. I think we see a completely different mentality this year with two JR QB's.

[Utah]

Charles Henderson (all-Lousiana WR)
Brian Blechen (QB)
Tavaris Williams (played both ways in HS but was all-state RB)
Marcus Williams (played both ways in HS but was all-state WR)
Brian Allen (if he really does switch to DB)
Nate Orchard (all-state WR, although everyone recruited him for defense)
Daniel Nielsen (played O-line his freshman year)
Greg Reese (TE at junior college)
Marcus Sanders-Williams (RB)
Wallace Gonzalez (did not play DE for the Astros)

I think your stretching a little here. Those names you named would have been moved by most coaches.

Henderson was given a shot at WR and has a better chance to play at DB.
Blechen was recruited for defense. Blechen is that 2 star QB with 4 star safety potential.
I'm not going to discuss the two way players. If their highest ceiling was on defense then good for Whitt putting them there.
Allen has been given a shot at receiver. Isn't good enough. Might get more playing time at DB.
Neilson is too big for OL. Not good enough to play on offense. So, he gets a shot at defense.
Reese - given a shot at offense. Not good enough.
Sanders-Williams - not good enough. Will see the field quicker at LB this year (wouldn't shock me if he moves back to RB next year)
Gonzalous - athlete.

I don't think your list proves anything. A lot of those kids were on offense, weren't good enough, so they moved to where they could play quicker, which goes against your theory that Whitt recruits for defense only. Our offense is much, much, much deeper than our defense this year.

[Utah]

I agree that Whit's and McBride's teams both have been maddening at times in the 4th Quarter (ASU 2013 anyone?). But that's because the teams are always built on defense first, offense dead last. I think that sort of team plays to Utah's recruiting strengths, but it also gives me gray hairs.

I don't agree with this. I think Utah has done that the last two years because of our QB. If you look at our team this year, our first year with any semblance of depth, we are much deeper and talented offensively.

Whitt's a smart man. He knows you need an offense to win in the PAC-12. He's spent the last 4 years recruiting the offense. We will see the fruit of that this year.

What we as fans needed to do was realize that we were a MWC team competing in the PAC-12 and we needed to allow Whitt time to get depth to where it needs to be. This year is the first year we are a PAC-12 team competing in the PAC-12.

The "week in, week out" saying is very real. We couldn't survive it. No mid-major can.

[USS Utah]

I agree that Whit's and McBride's teams both have been maddening at times in the 4th Quarter (ASU 2013 anyone?). But that's because the teams are always built on defense first, offense dead last. I think that sort of team plays to Utah's recruiting strengths, but it also gives me gray hairs.

Before Mac, Fassell put offense first and defense dead last, and Utah lost a lot of high scoring shoot outs.

By going to an up tempo offense and bringing in DC, it does at least appear that Whit is trying to get away from the so called "playing not to lose" philosophy.

[USS Utah]

Allen has been given a shot at receiver. Isn't good enough. Might get more playing time at DB.

Redshirted in 2012
Played in ten games in 2013, mostly special teams.
Lined up at WR against Weber State.

Essentially, couldn't beat out either Fitz or Denham, who together were less than spectacular, for playing time.

http://www.utahutes.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/brian_allen_796843.html

[Applejack]

I think your stretching a little here. Those names you named would have been moved by most coaches.

Henderson was given a shot at WR and has a better chance to play at DB.
Blechen was recruited for defense. Blechen is that 2 star QB with 4 star safety potential.
I'm not going to discuss the two way players. If their highest ceiling was on defense then good for Whitt putting them there.
Allen has been given a shot at receiver. Isn't good enough. Might get more playing time at DB.
Neilson is too big for OL. Not good enough to play on offense. So, he gets a shot at defense.
Reese - given a shot at offense. Not good enough.
Sanders-Williams - not good enough. Will see the field quicker at LB this year (wouldn't shock me if he moves back to RB next year)
Gonzalous - athlete.

I don't think your list proves anything. A lot of those kids were on offense, weren't good enough, so they moved to where they could play quicker, which goes against your theory that Whitt recruits for defense only. Our offense is much, much, much deeper than our defense this year.

Sorry, you asked for a list of players we recruited who switched from offense to defense. Isn't that what we're talking about? Ronnie did it (hello DeShawn Crockett!), Whit does it. Nothing to be defensive about (boo-yah!).

[Utah]

Sorry, you asked for a list of players we recruited who switched from offense to defense. Isn't that what we're talking about? Ronnie did it (hello DeShawn Crockett!), Whit does it. Nothing to be defensive about (boo-yah!).

No problem. I understood it as he immediately put them on defense because he hates to offense. I was just showing that the guys you mentioned we either recruited for defense or switched to get a better shot at playing time.

[USS Utah]

Sorry, you asked for a list of players we recruited who switched from offense to defense. Isn't that what we're talking about? Ronnie did it (hello DeShawn Crockett!), Whit does it. Nothing to be defensive about (boo-yah!).

DeShawn Crockett, despite being undersized, got his shot in the 2000 opener, and it was obvious that he was not the answer at RB. There is no reasonable argument that he should have started over Tate and Hunter.

[Applejack]

DeShawn Crockett, despite being undersized, got his shot in the 2000 opener, and it was obvious that he was not the answer at RB. There is no reasonable argument that he should have started over Tate and Hunter.

I remember!

This is the whole "Utah strategy" that MrBride started: bring in a ton of RBs and move the ones that don't pan out to defense. It's genius!

[Diehard Ute]

One going the other way

Per his own twitter (via Piper) Monte Seabrook has been moved to RB

[Utah]

One going the other way

Per his own twitter (via Piper) Monte Seabrook has been moved to RB

That's interesting. Injuries at RB?

[UBlender]

One going the other way

Per his own twitter (via Piper) Monte Seabrook has been moved to RB

There are others too. JR Salt was a DL when he came to Utah, redshirted and moved to OL. Sam Tevi being another. A lot of people thought Fakailoatonga would make a mean DE but he's been at TE. Among others.

[UBlender]

That's interesting. Injuries at RB?

RB has gotten sneakily thin. We have three guys expected to contribute a lot and then DreVian Young looks like a good player for the future. But that's it. If we had a 2-3 injuries we'd be in trouble.

[SoCalPat]

Kyle has dropped to 71st in the Hot Seat Rankings at coacheshotseat.com. He started the season in the 40-45 range. And four Pac-12 coaches rate as having hotter seats -- Leach and McIntyre have skyrocketed up the list, joining Dykes and Riley ahead of Kyle.

[concerned]

Kyle has dropped to 71st in the Hot Seat Rankings at coacheshotseat.com. He started the season in the 40-45 range. And four Pac-12 coaches rate as having hotter seats -- Leach and McIntyre have skyrocketed up the list, joining Dykes and Riley ahead of Kyle.


Why Dykes or Riley would be on any kind of hot seat at the moment is beyond me.

[SoCalPat]

Why Dykes or Riley would be on any kind of hot seat at the moment is beyond me.

Dykes has dropped some 10-15 spots, if memory serves. Still on the hot seat, but a 4-1 start (very possible) has him safe off of it. Riley isn't even on the hot seat and is listed as "Safe For Now."

[DrumNFeather]

This goes here, maybe. From the mailbag:


How about a Utah-Cal centric mailbag this week? As always, follow me on Twitter (https://twitter.com/Kevin_Gemmell).

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/teamlogos/ncaa/500/254.png?w=80&h=80&transparent=trueVer in SLC writes: Kyle Whittingham is 11-1 in non-conference and bowl games since joining the Pac-12. Going back to include the MWC days, he is 34-8 all time. Granted, the Pac is a TOUGH league, and Utah's struggles are proving that out, but could Whitt's coaching niche be more about knowing how to beat unfamiliar opponents and once a good team gets used to playing the Utes, they figure them out? After all, as the Pac schools get used to playing them each year the win totals go down. Even the win against Stanford was the first meeting of the teams since joining.

Kevin Gemmell: I see your point. But on the flip side, it’s kind of hard to “figure a team out” when they have had four offensive coordinators in three years. Just sayin’.

The simple fact is Utah hasn’t had consistency at quarterback – be it performance or injury related – since 2008. That they’ve managed to go 38-25 with patchwork quarterback play during that stretch is actually quite impressive. Granted, 20 of those wins came when they were still in the Mountain West.

To your question, the Utes are 9-18 in Pac-12 play since joining the league in 2011. The conference wins have declined each year, from four wins in ’11, three in ’12 and two in ’13. Most of the quarterback injuries occurred early in the season, thus leaving the Utes in scramble mode the rest of the time.

Also, when push comes to shove, coaching … schemes … spread vs. pro-style … a lot of that is secondary. It’s important, for sure. But football is football. And a huge chunk of it comes down to personnel. If you have the personnel to compete, you’re going to compete. Even the most brilliant of coaches can’t overcome a lack of personnel.

What we’re starting to see from Utah is recruiting and player development to the point where it can be a competitive Pac-12 team. The Utes are recruiting faster players, stronger players and filling out depth.

I was actually talking to Kyle Whittingham about this this morning for another story slated for next week. The Utes are better than they were in 2010. But so is the rest of the league. It’s relative. The question is are they better to the point where they can win a few more conference games?

I think so – if they can stay healthy.

[Utah]

This next week is big. Utah, ND and Michigan all performed similarly vs mid-major/FCS opponents. Yet ND destroyed Michigan.

Good yardstick for our team this weekend.

[LA Ute]

This goes here, maybe. From the mailbag:

[/FONT][/COLOR]

Gemmell actually makes a pretty compelling case. (BTW, the question reads like it came from a BYU fan, but maybe it was just an educated Kyle detractor.) Utah's lackluster PAC-12 performance so far really does seem to be the result of bad coaching decisions; rotten luck with injuries and QB situations that either didn't work out, or that never happened because of recruiting near-misses; increasingly better PAC competition; and lack of PAC-quality depth. All of those things have been addressed and/or are improving. The luck part ought to improve just by virtue of the law of averages. So it will be interesting to see whether the needle finally moves in the other direction this season. I still love our conference situation and would rather have these challenges than be back where we were.

[Utah]

Gemmell actually makes a pretty compelling case. (BTW, the question reads like it came from a BYU fan, but maybe it was just an educated Kyle detractor.) Utah's lackluster PAC-12 performance so far really does seem to be the result of bad coaching decisions; rotten luck with injuries and QB situations that either didn't work out, or that never happened because of recruiting near-misses; increasingly better PAC competition; and lack of PAC-quality depth. All of those things have been addressed and/or are improving. The luck part ought to improve just by virtue of the law of averages. So it will be interesting to see whether the needle finally moves in the other direction this season. I still love our conference situation and would rather have these challenges than be back where we were.

It all comes down to the QB. What happens if Wynn is never injured? We win the south our first year. Probably win 10+ our second. Then a big, healthy confident Wilson takes over.

Or, what if Hansen never goes on a mission? We go to bowls the last two years.

You can't win with a walkon QB in this league. We proved that. The good news is, our walkon is now our fifth string QB.

[Applejack]

One going the other way

Per his own twitter (via Piper) Monte Seabrook has been moved to RB

Too bad about Lucky Radley leaving. That's his spot that we have to fill.

I just checked on Radley at SDSU: After two games, he has two carries for 1 yard. Oh well, he lives in San Diego.

[sancho]

Ways in which Whittingham is like McBride:

- Recruit offensive players for defense. Ronny Mac should have patented this move. It seemed like he just recruited running backs, and then flipped most of them to DB or LB. Domo is Whit's latest greatest flip.


Brady Hoke should have taken a page from this playbook. Devin Gardner looks like he would make a great strong safety.

[LA Ute]

It's still early in the 2014 season but I must admit I am impressed. Kyle has shown resourcefulness and adaptability beyond my expectations.

For example, he's pulled in talent with an immediate impact from unlikely places: Look at what Tevin Carter, Kaelin Clay, Gionni Paul, Tim Patrick and Kendal Thompson did in the Michigan game. Those guys weren't wearing Utah jerseys 12 months ago.

He brought in Dave Christensen and it seems that for the first time since the Ludwig era we have an offensive philosophy that works.

The O-line is better, if not where it needs to be.

The defense once again looks like a Ute defense.

Yes, he had help in all these efforts, but he's the captain of the ship. I hope this continues, we see 8 wins, Kyle gets renewed, and he stays on as the Utah coach until retirement after a successful career. I hope he becomes our LaVell.(without a dropoff in program success after he retires)

[Utah]

It's still early in the 2014 season but I must admit I am impressed. Kyle has shown resourcefulness and adaptability beyond my expectations.

For example, he's pulled in talent with an immediate impact from unlikely places: Look at what Tevin Carter, Kaelin Clay, Gionni Paul, Tim Patrick and Kendal Thompson did in the Michigan game. Those guys weren't wearing Utah jerseys 12 months ago.

He brought in Dave Christensen and it seems that for the first time since the Ludwig era we have an offensive philosophy that works.

The O-line is better, if not where it needs to be.

The defense once again looks like a Ute defense.

Yes, he had help in all these efforts, but he's the captain of the ship. I hope this continues, we see 8 wins, Kyle gets renewed, and he stays on as the Utah coach until retirement after a successful career. I hope he becomes our LaVell.(without a dropoff in program success after he retires)

Any zoob could see that Whitt hasn't had a PAC-12 team until this fall. Any zoob would have noticed that when he has talent, he is a pretty good coach. And any zoob would assume that now that Whitt has talent, he would be successful.

It's ok to be pissed I've been right. What do I know? I'm surprised you haven't called me out saying that Wilson is a top half of the PAC-12 QB. That's your only hope right now. That Wilson sucks it up.

[SoCalPat]

It's still early in the 2014 season but I must admit I am impressed. Kyle has shown resourcefulness and adaptability beyond my expectations.

For example, he's pulled in talent with an immediate impact from unlikely places: Look at what Tevin Carter, Kaelin Clay, Gionni Paul, Tim Patrick and Kendal Thompson did in the Michigan game. Those guys weren't wearing Utah jerseys 12 months ago.

He brought in Dave Christensen and it seems that for the first time since the Ludwig era we have an offensive philosophy that works.

The O-line is better, if not where it needs to be.

The defense once again looks like a Ute defense.

Yes, he had help in all these efforts, but he's the captain of the ship. I hope this continues, we see 8 wins, Kyle gets renewed, and he stays on as the Utah coach until retirement after a successful career. I hope he becomes our LaVell.(without a dropoff in program success after he retires)

Minor quibble. Paul was on campus a year ago, and the coaches even had hope he'd be eligible immediately, what with everything going on at Miami with the sanctions and what not.

As important as Travis is to the offense, we needed Gionni to play this year for the defense to carry the 8-win water. I'm not putting any ceiling on this team right now.

[UBlender]

I was musing this morning about the vocal minority wanted Kyle gone last season and kept talking about the inevitability of the change through the whole off-season. One of the counterpoints people like me always bring up is "Who are we going to get that will be better?" Well, two of the names most commonly brought up by that crowd were Tim DeRuyter and Matt Wells. I'm so glad that crowd has no influence as both of those coaches are looking in a bad way right now. (It's also a reminder of why hiring the successful mid-major coach or the hot assistant is always a dicey proposition, as Utah basketball has found out firsthand).

One other note, after finally getting to watch the last 7:51 online last night I listened to Kyle's post-game interview with the ABC/ESPN crew. Maybe he was just a little punchy because of the unique situation but I thought Kyle had a little bit of a swagger to him that he doesn't usually show on game day. I remember seeing some of that in 2008. I'm not saying this team is on that level but it made me think we have a coach that knows he's got some nice things coming together and things are looking up.

[SoCalPat]

Coacheshotseat.com has noticed the job Kyle has done. He's plummeted all the way to 98th, sixth in the Pac-12.

At risk of jinxing a good thing, we're gonna have to lock this thread pretty soon.

[chrisrenrut]

Coacheshotseat.com has noticed the job Kyle has done. He's plummeted all the way to 98th, sixth in the Pac-12.

At risk of jinxing a good thing, we're gonna have to lock this thread pretty soon.

It's fluid. We haven't even played a conference game yet.

If we reel off 5 straight conference losses like we did last year, the temperature will again rise. Even if we go 3-6 in conference, that will get us to a bowl game, which will deflect some heat. But the fact that we still struggle well below .500 in conference will be lingering out there.

[concerned]

It's fluid. We haven't even played a conference game yet.

If we reel off 5 straight conference losses like we did last year, the temperature will again rise. Even if we go 3-6 in conference, that will get us to a bowl game, which will deflect some heat. But the fact that we still struggle well below .500 in conference will be lingering out there.

KW just needs to get to next year. Next year the schedule sets up for us really nicely, assuming we can replace our safeties.

[Homer Crimson]

Coacheshotseat.com has noticed the job Kyle has done. He's plummeted all the way to 98th, sixth in the Pac-12.

At risk of jinxing a good thing, we're gonna have to lock this thread pretty soon.

Too late?

[SoCalPat]

Too late?

Sweet Louise, I don't believe anything I say has an outcome on future events, but this is getting me to at least think about it.

Anyway, Kyle in one-possession games since joining the Pac-12:

2011: 2-2*

2012: 2-2

2013: 4-3

2014: 0-1

Total: 8-8

Caveats: Five of those 8 wins came against BYU, Utah State and Colorado. A sixth came in our bowl win vs. Georgia Tech. Additionally, one of the losses was 2011 USC, which officially was a 9-point loss, but was a one-possession game the final time we touched the ball. Even if you eliminate that game from Kyle's record, he's 2-7 against non-last place teams in one-possession games in Pac-12 play. That's not cutting it.

FWIW, McBride's record in one-possession games his last three years was 5-12, and several of those losses were against teams perceived to be a huge step up in class (roadies at Arizona and Michigan 2002, No. 8 BYU in 2001 stand out). It was when he started losing big leads (AFA and UNM 2002) that support emptied out.

2013 ASU and 2014 WSU were both one-point losses, but I think we can all tell that's the only thing those games have in common as they pertain to support for Kyle and optimism going forward.

[mpfunk]

A few thoughts on Whittingham's hot seat. Since joining the Pac-12:

Wins over Pac-12 teams that finished with a winning record: 1
Last road victory in the Pac-12: 2011
Pac-12 road victories against winning teams: 0
Record at home in the Pac-12: 6-9. We have never had a winning record at home in the Pac-12 (2011: 2-3, 2012: 2-2, 2013: 2-3, 2014: 0-1)

[sancho]

Wins over Pac-12 teams that finished with a winning record: 1
Last road victory in the Pac-12: 2011
Pac-12 road victories against winning teams: 0


These three change on Saturday!

I made a "fire coach decision" flow chart. It was my first ever flowchart. I have been needing to make one for something else, so I am practicing on this one:

1254

[mpfunk]

These three change on Saturday!

I made a "fire coach decision" flow chart. It was my first ever flowchart. I have been needing to make one for something else, so I am practicing on this one:

1254

As someone on the fire Whittingham bandwagon that doesn't want to be there, give me some reasons to have hope that he can turn this thing around.

[sancho]

As someone on the fire Whittingham bandwagon that doesn't want to be there, give me some reasons to have hope that he can turn this thing around.

I'm on the keep Whittingham bandwagon, but yesterday I started thinking about other options for the first time.

My reason to hope that things will get better with Whitt?

For the first time since joining the Pac-12, I thought on Saturday that our main offensive problems are limited to just 1 position - the quarterback. If our issues are centered around 1 position, then 1 player can make the difference. Maybe Wilson finally steps up, maybe it's someone else, but I finally think we are one player away. I have never felt like that before in the Pac-12.

I know some smart posters disagree and feel that the line is another big problem. If those posters are right - if the line really is getting worse instead of better - it's probably time to think about a coaching change. So I'm interested to know what others think about QB and the line. So, board members, are we one player away, or are our issues much broader?

Even if we are just one player away, QBs don't grow on trees, and there's no guarantee that Whittingham will ever have that one player we need.

But if we really are close to turning the corner, I would hate to start a rebuild. A rebuild might set us back a long time. Whitt has been at the top before. One good season, and he's back on everyone's "good coaches" list. One good season might be enough to launch us into a stable orbit around "6-8 wins." We basically have everything we want in a coach right now except the winning. We have stability. We have a guy who doesn't say stupid things each week in his interviews. We have a guy who is likable. We have a guy who has handled discipline issues pretty well. Having all that, I just want to give him as much patience as I can muster with the QB issues.

[LA Ute]

I just don't think we know enough yet, because a change at this point in our history is going to be a gamble to some extent. How many Urban Meyers are out there? I am not sure whether to be optimistic or not about KW's chances of success-- I'm leaning pessimistic -- but I think the situation will be much clearer at the end of November.

[concerned]

I just don't think we know enough yet, because a change at this point in our history is going to be a gamble to some extent. How many Urban Meyers are out there? I am not sure whether to be optimistic or not about KW's chances of success-- I'm leaning pessimistic -- but I think the situation will be much clearer at the end of November.

im pessimistic about Kyle. After Saturday, Not sure he will ever get us past annual 5-7's.

I'm more pessimistic about not Kyle. As ocgreg pointed out, for every Jim Carroll, there is a Ted Tolner, Larry Smith, John Robinson II, Paul Hackett, Lane Kiffin, and Steve Sarkissian. (Not sure why he is down on Sarkasian).

[sancho]

im pessimistic about Kyle. After Saturday, Not sure he will ever get us past annual 5-7's.

I'm more pessimistic about not Kyle. As ocgreg pointed out, for every Jim Carroll, there is a Ted Tolner, Larry Smith, John Robinson II, Paul Hackett, Lane Kiffin, and Steve Sarkissian. (Not sure why he is down on Sarkasian).

Well, what if we get Urban to come back, and Mike McCoy, somehow preferring SLC over San Diego, agrees to be OC? Whitt stays as DC, and Sitake is the DLine coach. Gary Anderson is hired to give "ute train" halftime pep talks.

Plus, Steve Smith is hired as a special assistant coach whose job is to beat the tar out of any player who gets too soft.

[USS Utah]

I just don't think we know enough yet, because a change at this point in our history is going to be a gamble to some extent. How many Urban Meyers are out there? I am not sure whether to be optimistic or not about KW's chances of success-- I'm leaning pessimistic -- but I think the situation will be much clearer at the end of November.

Urban took Utah to the next level, but he did so against an MWC schedule, not a p5 schedule. There is no way to know how Meyer would have fared in a similar G5 to P5 transition because he never did it (taking a team, not taking a job). It might be useful to remember that.

[jrj84105]

I'm on the keep Whittingham bandwagon, but yesterday I started thinking about other options for the first time.

My reason to hope that things will get better with Whitt?

For the first time since joining the Pac-12, I thought on Saturday that our main offensive problems are limited to just 1 position - the quarterback. If our issues are centered around 1 position, then 1 player can make the difference. Maybe Wilson finally steps up, maybe it's someone else, but I finally think we are one player away. I have never felt like that before in the Pac-12. I know some smart posters disagree and feel that the line is another big problem. If those posters are right - if the line really is getting worse instead of better - it's probably time to think about a coaching change. So I'm interested to know what others think about QB and the line. So, board members, are we one player away, or are our issues much broader?
We had issues at O-line and WR in addition to QB. We are also struggling mightily to recruit players to the WR position having lost our two best WR commits and being on the way to losing another to WSU. We are also striking out with O line this year, not being able to land instate talent that grew up Utah fans. We also missed on our top QB target who is from TW's HS and who liked our program immensely. Our trajectory in all three areas is that our current personnel are more talented overall than what we have coming in the recruiting pipeline.



But if we really are close to turning the corner, I would hate to start a rebuild. A rebuild might set us back a long time. Whitt has been at the top before. One good season, and he's back on everyone's "good coaches" list. One good season might be enough to launch us into a stable orbit around "6-8 wins." We basically have everything we want in a coach right now except the winning. We have stability. We have a guy who doesn't say stupid things each week in his interviews. We have a guy who is likable. We have a guy who has handled discipline issues pretty well. Having all that, I just want to give him as much patience as I can muster with the QB issues.
I think it would take more than 1 season of 7-5 to put KW back on a good coach list. We have some good talent coming back next year and a handful of young DE/Sitake recruits, but after 2015 things will get very sketchy. 2015 will very likely be Utah's best season for a while barring a complete change in the recruiting trajectory. In the case of WSU, the Cougars had some good guys coming back, including a good young QB. Leach benefitted from some early success which he used to build the perception of him being a good coach which he is now parlaying into better recruiting. A 7-6 season in 2015 does little to change the overall impression of KW being a middling or worse PAC coach, but it could make his replacement look very good by comparison, and that might be the shot in the arm that the program needs from a recruiting perspective. Is giving KW one more year with a better than average 2015 squad a good idea when it could carry more weight with KW's successor?

[jrj84105]

im pessimistic about Kyle. After Saturday, Not sure he will ever get us past annual 5-7's.

I'm more pessimistic about not Kyle. As ocgreg pointed out, for every Jim Carroll, there is a Ted Tolner, Larry Smith, John Robinson II, Paul Hackett, Lane Kiffin, and Steve Sarkissian. (Not sure why he is down on Sarkasian).
The Mississippi State win was a big blow to our chances of hitting a home run. Like I posted above, I think there is a good chance that the 2015 squad is our best in recent years. Since recruiting is a game of perception and recruiting in the key to improvement, I think any coach that we hire going into the 2015 season has a lot better chance of getting a nice recruiting and perception bump than a coach that comes later than 2015. I think the hire involves a lot of guess work, but the timing can be optimized for the best chance. The timing says make the change after this year.

[jrj84105]

I just don't think we know enough yet, because a change at this point in our history is going to be a gamble to some extent. How many Urban Meyers are out there? I am not sure whether to be optimistic or not about KW's chances of success-- I'm leaning pessimistic -- but I think the situation will be much clearer at the end of November.

We don't need a better coach than KW, just one whose skillset better fits our current needs (offensive identity, recruiting). We don't really need another Urban when a simple RichRod would suffice. I would look for an obtainable coach that has a history of fielding prolific offenses and recruiting well but who has struggled to put together a consistent D and hope that Sitake, Scalley, and Tuiaki can be the yin to his yang. There are going to be some jobless coaches that fit that bill.

[SoCalPat]

Urban took Utah to the next level, but he did so against an MWC schedule, not a p5 schedule. There is no way to know how Meyer would have fared in a similar G5 to P5 transition because he never did it (taking a team, not taking a job). It might be useful to remember that.

How is this even relevant? His track record strongly suggests he would've been successful.

Besides, our 2003 schedule was pretty rough. Oregon, Texas A&M and Cal in the non-con, plus the traditional MWC powers on the road (CSU, AFA, BYU). It's not like we fattened up on WAC dogmeat like Boise did.

[LA Ute]

Urban took Utah to the next level, but he did so against an MWC schedule, not a p5 schedule. There is no way to know how Meyer would have fared in a similar G5 to P5 transition because he never did it (taking a team, not taking a job). It might be useful to remember that.

Come on now, no need to become acerbic! I am just saying that it takes a special coach to do what Urban did. There aren't many like that around. So letting KW go is a risk. I think you agree with me there. That's why I think we need to see the full body of KW's 2014 work before coming to an informed opinion about his ability to succeed in the PAC-12. Based on his history, I'm becoming pessimistic that he can do it. I'm also pessimistic that a new coach would have success right away, and the new guy's failure would probably have long-term negative effects. In other words, I'm worried.

[sancho]

I would look for an obtainable coach that has a history of fielding prolific offenses and recruiting well

I agree that a new coach could be just the shot in the arm that the program needs. It could also, of course, be a complete disaster that leaves us in an even worse spot. I guess we get to talk it over all season long.

Kinda crazy that RichRod and Leech were both on the market at the same time. I don't think it's usually like that.

Replacement options:

There appear to be no big up-and-coming coaches out of the G5 ranks this season. The guy at ECU may qualify, but he is an ECU alum and may want to stay. Plus, if he's the only one, someone bigger than Utah will get him.

Ex NFL coaches. There are always a few of these around. Worked for UCLA. Didn't work for Texas A&M.

Assistant coaches. Plenty of options here. Complete crap shoot. Michigan just hired Alabama's OC. That is not working out so far. Andy Staples on SI suggested the 29 year old OC from Texas A&M.

[jrj84105]

We had a very transient PAC12 recruiting bounce. I think most people who follow Utah recruiting would see 2014 and 2015 as peak years for KW led Utah. If people are afraid of what a bad coaching hire could do to Utah, they should follow our recruiting and start thinking about how KW will fare with less talent, because hat's what we're facing in 2016 and beyond. If this is an up year, what does a down year look like wih KW?

[Devildog]

It's put up or shut up time. Either Kyle can win conference games or he can't. The Utes need a bowl game. We needed to beat Washington State to get the numbers on our side. We didn't. Now we have to go get wins where it is supposed to be more difficult than home against Washington State. If Kyle gets the bowl... I'm sure he's safe... if not, well... the job pays pretty well.

[USS Utah]

How is this even relevant? His track record strongly suggests he would've been successful.

Besides, our 2003 schedule was pretty rough. Oregon, Texas A&M and Cal in the non-con, plus the traditional MWC powers on the road (CSU, AFA, BYU). It's not like we fattened up on WAC dogmeat like Boise did.

It seems that I challenged an article of faith yesterday -- here and at UF.N -- with this.

CSU, AFA and BYU on the road -- sure sounds the same as UCLA, Stanford and ASU on the road. Remind me again the last time Utah won in the Rose Bowl or in Tempe.

[USS Utah]

Come on now, no need to become acerbic! I am just saying that it takes a special coach to do what Urban did. There aren't many like that around. So letting KW go is a risk. I think you agree with me there. That's why I think we need to see the full body of KW's 2014 work before coming to an informed opinion about his ability to succeed in the PAC-12. Based on his history, I'm becoming pessimistic that he can do it. I'm also pessimistic that a new coach would have success right away, and the new guy's failure would probably have long-term negative effects. In other words, I'm worried.

I'm worried about getting a football version of Giac or Boylen.

UCLA fired Kyle Dorell and hired Rick Neuheisel, before firing him and hitting a home run with Mora.

Colorado fired Hawkins to get a former player who was fired after two years.

Maybe Whit won't be able to get it done in the Pac, but letting him go hoping for a quick fix is clearly risky.

[LA Ute]

Maybe Whit won't be able to get it done in the Pac, but letting him go hoping for a quick fix is clearly risky.

Yep, I agree.

[SoCalPat]

I'm worried about getting a football version of Giac or Boylen.

UCLA fired Kyle Dorell and hired Rick Neuheisel, before firing him and hitting a home run with Mora.

Colorado fired Hawkins to get a former player who was fired after two years.

Maybe Whit won't be able to get it done in the Pac, but letting him go hoping for a quick fix is clearly risky.

I would say we're getting Giac/Boylen results with Kyle right now.

Those coaches had big wins against ranked teams or in tough venues as well. They had several near-misses in recruiting. They also had talented players that couldn't mesh. It seems a lot like what we're seeing now in football.

[SoCalPat]

It seems that I challenged an article of faith yesterday -- here and at UF.N -- with this.

CSU, AFA and BYU on the road -- sure sounds the same as UCLA, Stanford and ASU on the road. Remind me again the last time Utah won in the Rose Bowl or in Tempe.

It's not like you don't have a point to some degree with what you said. I just hate it when we knock great teams from the past down a peg to try and prove a point today.

That 2003 team would whip the 2014 team's ass. Agree? If so, then the SOS arguments are pretty much baseless.

[NorthwestUteFan]

2003 team had an NFL qb, a Whittingham/Anderson defense, and one of the smartest offensive minds in the business at HC.

The last thing listed is the most important. Our HC and OC had an immediate answer for any defense presented to them, and seemed to make excellent in-game adjustments in between plays, and not between possessions or between games as they seem to happen now. They had an answer for short yardage, quick plays when the D stacks the box, knew how to confuse the secondary, etc.

And everybody on the was extremely well-prepared and mentally tough.

I miss the days when I knew our coaching staff were always the smartest coaches on the field.

[sancho]

I would say we're getting Giac/Boylen results with Kyle right now.

Those coaches had big wins against ranked teams or in tough venues as well. They had several near-misses in recruiting. They also had talented players that couldn't mesh. It seems a lot like what we're seeing now in football.

Fair point, but what really characterized the last year of Boylen for me was the sense of hopelessness. I don't feel that way yet with football (I know that some do).

[SoCalPat]

Fair point, but what really characterized the last year of Boylen for me was the sense of hopelessness. I don't feel that way yet with football (I know that some do).

Painful as it was, Jimmer Fredette (who was national POY, crazy as it seems in hindsight and watching him flop in the NBA) dropping 49 in the JHC felt nowhere near as hopeless as losing a 21-0 lead at home to Washington State. We knew we sucked in hoops. We thought we were a fringe South contender heading into Wazzu. Call it hopelessness, call it whatever ...

[LA Ute]

Fair point, but what really characterized the last year of Boylen for me was the sense of hopelessness. I don't feel that way yet with football (I know that some do).

I am not there yet. I am somewhere in the vicinity of where I was with McBride, however: We have risen to a certain place that I only dreamed of 10 years ago, but are we stuck here? I.e., can we reasonably hope things will improve? With Mac there was no real reason to think so.

[Homer Crimson]

I started to rehash my conversion to the dump-Kyle gang, but decided that I'll just watch the rest of the season unfold. I'll just say this about it: I don't want Hill to pull the trigger until he has someone locked up that isn't just a lateral move, and that, at least on paper, can be shown to have a shot at bettering us. Tall order, I know, and why I don't expect Kyle to be going anywhere soon, even if we go 5-7 again.

Sancho- that flow chart is nauseatingly accurate.

[USS Utah]

I would say we're getting Giac/Boylen results with Kyle right now.

Those coaches had big wins against ranked teams or in tough venues as well. They had several near-misses in recruiting. They also had talented players that couldn't mesh. It seems a lot like what we're seeing now in football.

Giac quit on the team, so I would have to disagree as far that goes.

[USS Utah]

2003 team had an NFL qb, a Whittingham/Anderson defense, and one of the smartest offensive minds in the business at HC.

The last thing listed is the most important. Our HC and OC had an immediate answer for any defense presented to them, and seemed to make excellent in-game adjustments in between plays, and not between possessions or between games as they seem to happen now. They had an answer for short yardage, quick plays when the D stacks the box, knew how to confuse the secondary, etc.

And everybody on the was extremely well-prepared and mentally tough.

I miss the days when I knew our coaching staff were always the smartest coaches on the field.

And yet that loss to New Mexico still happened.

2003 did have a better QB situation, which was needed when the starter was lost to injury against A&M.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Stupid Lobos. I was thinking of 2004, not 2003.

But my point stands. I want to see solid, dominant execution punctuated by fireworks on Oh-fense, and still have a defense that strikes fear in the heart of the other team's OC. I want more opposing coaches to shout "Wow! Wow! Wow!" a la the Texas A&M coach in the 2004 game.

[sancho]

Stupid Lobos. I was thinking of 2004, not 2003.

But my point stands. I want to see solid, dominant execution punctuated by fireworks on Oh-fense, and still have a defense that strikes fear in the heart of the other team's OC. I want more opposing coaches to shout "Wow! Wow! Wow!" a la the Texas A&M coach in the 2004 game.

So you want to be Oregon, Baylor or Texas A&M. I want that too. We should hire Art Briles.

[concerned]

The thing that makes KW's situation difficult is that he has one year left on his contract. You cant let him be a lame duck next year, so you have to decide at the end of this year whether to give him an extension or not. If you do, for how long and how much. Even a one year extension makes KW a lame duck. That is the difficult decision for CH it seems to me. If KW had two or three years left on his K, the decision would be much easier.

[sancho]

The thing that makes KW's situation difficult is that he has one year left on his contract. You cant let him be a lame duck next year, so you have to decide at the end of this year whether to give him an extension or not. If you do, for how long and how much. Even a one year extension makes KW a lame duck. That is the difficult decision for CH it seems to me. If KW had two or three years left on his K, the decision would be much easier.

Sure would be nice if we could win some games and make the decision easy.

[UTEopia]

Why does everyone think KW's contract is up at the end of 2015? I read his contract a few years ago and 8 wins gets him an automatic extension to 5 years. The Utes won 8 games in 2011. That would put his contract up at the end of 2016.

[concerned]

Why does everyone think KW's contract is up at the end of 2015? I read his contract a few years ago and 8 wins gets him an automatic extension to 5 years. The Utes won 8 games in 2011. That would put his contract up at the end of 2016.

I forgot about that; I hope you are right; makes a big difference. Because we have a much more favorable schedule next year and a senior qb, you really want to give KW the oppty to coach it (at least i would).

[USS Utah]

Stupid Lobos. I was thinking of 2004, not 2003.

But by "everybody" you surely don't mean the second team defense? Recall the Colorado State game of 2004 when the starters were sent back in after the Rams scored a few times.

[CoolBreeze]

But by "everybody" you surely don't mean the second team defense? Recall the Colorado State game of 2004 when the starters were sent back in after the Rams scored a few times.

You mean after we were up 56-10 at the end of the third quarter? Those second (third in reality) teamers gave up some points and that was what worried you and makes you think Urban wouldn't be a good transition coach?

Urban knew he had to have style points back then. He had his targeted margin of victory, and even though some people thought he should pull Alex etc at half, he rode the horse into the 4th almost always to make sure that we would get enough props in the press to get into the BCS game.

[USS Utah]

You mean after we were up 56-10 at the end of the third quarter? Those second (third in reality) teamers gave up some points and that was what worried you and makes you think Urban wouldn't be a good transition coach?

Urban knew he had to have style points back then. He had his targeted margin of victory, and even though some people thought he should pull Alex etc at half, he rode the horse into the 4th almost always to make sure that we would get enough props in the press to get into the BCS game.

Reading comprehension can be difficult.

It would be silly to worry about a hypothetical.

[CoolBreeze]

Reading comprehension can be difficult.

It would be silly to worry about a hypothetical.

It's not that hard. In fact I'm really good at it. You spend a few posts trying to talk about how Urban might not be any better than KW at a transitional team. Northwest says 2003 is awesome and wishes team was more like that. Only person to say "everybody" in a few pages when he talks about everybody even the backups. You come along and point out that "everybody" gave up points to CSU, again implying Urban's teams weren't so much better than KW teams.

What exactly did I miss?

Look I'm glad there are conservative opinions about KW and that people say not everyone is Urban. I have no desire to stoke any fires for KW's ouster, it's pointless this early in the season. But rehashing backups from 2004 with incorrect recaps of events doesn't do much good either, imho.

[USS Utah]

You spend a few posts trying to talk about how Urban might not be any better than KW at a transitional team.

That not what I said. I said Urban's success at Utah came against an MWC schedule rather than a P5 schedule, and that there is no way to know how he would have done in Kyle's shoes.


Northwest says 2003 is awesome and wishes team was more like that.

And I then pointed out that the 2003 team lost at home to New Mexico.


Only person to say "everybody" in a few pages when he talks about everybody even the backups.

He said everybody was well-prepared and mentally tough.


You come along and point out that "everybody" gave up points to CSU, again implying Urban's teams weren't so much better than KW teams.

I merely pointed out that there was some concern about the second team defense by using the example of the starters being sent back in against CSU. I said nothing about the 2004 team not being so much better than any of Kyle's teams.

[CoolBreeze]

Fair enough. If that's what you meant then I don't want to put words in your mouth.

On the other hand, I do not recall much concern for the second team defense back in 2004, especially in garbage time when it was usually the thirds in there.

[mpfunk]

It seems like a lot of the not-fire Whittingham posts are because it is risky to hire a new coach. I absolutely agree it is a huge risk to fire a coach and hire a new coach. It could absolutely get worse with a new coach. It was the same thing in 2002 when the Utes fired a good coach in Ron McBride. Things could have gotten worse, but the risk was worth trying to elevate the program.

Here is the problem, in year 4 in the Pac-12, Kyle Whittingham is not showing any signs that he can make this team competitive in the Pac-12. We are a .500 team at home, we never win on the road, and we rarely beat good Pac-12 teams. So you either take the risk or decide that you are content with 5-7 seasons.

[concerned]

It seems like a lot of the not-fire Whittingham posts are because it is risky to hire a new coach. I absolutely agree it is a huge risk to fire a coach and hire a new coach. It could absolutely get worse with a new coach. It was the same thing in 2002 when the Utes fired a good coach in Ron McBride. Things could have gotten worse, but the risk was worth trying to elevate the program.

Here is the problem, in year 4 in the Pac-12, Kyle Whittingham is not showing any signs that he can make this team competitive in the Pac-12. We are a .500 team at home, we never win on the road, and we rarely beat good Pac-12 teams. So you either take the risk or decide that you are content with 5-7 seasons.

You give him next year to get over the hump. If we are 5-7 next with a favorable schedule and a senior qb, you have to conclude it will never happen.

[Solon]

It seems like a lot of the not-fire Whittingham posts are because it is risky to hire a new coach. I absolutely agree it is a huge risk to fire a coach and hire a new coach. It could absolutely get worse with a new coach. It was the same thing in 2002 when the Utes fired a good coach in Ron McBride. Things could have gotten worse, but the risk was worth trying to elevate the program.

Here is the problem, in year 4 in the Pac-12, Kyle Whittingham is not showing any signs that he can make this team competitive in the Pac-12. We are a .500 team at home, we never win on the road, and we rarely beat good Pac-12 teams. So you either take the risk or decide that you are content with 5-7 seasons.

The mindset I would like to discard is the idea that Utah can't get a top-shelf candidate (whether already well-known, or an up-and-comer). How many P5 schools are there? 60 maybe? There aren't that many HC jobs at this level out there. If Utah has an opening, there will be a lot of interest. I'm sure there are plenty of good coordinators, coaches at smaller schools, etc. who have what it takes to be a HC at this level.

While I'm sensitive to the realities of recruiting, the idea that a school should hire someone with pre-existing ties to the program is outdated. Isn't that one of the biggest knocks on Whit - that he's only hired from within his own circle? Isn't that what has sunk the Michigan boat?

If the Utes are looking for a coach in the offseason, I would hope that Hill casts the net more widely than just people tied to the program.

[mpfunk]

You give him next year to get over the hump. If we are 5-7 next with a favorable schedule and a senior qb, you have to conclude it will never happen.

I'm not convinced that you can give him until next year without him showing progress this year. Progress = wins. I'm not sure Utah is going to show any progress this year. All anyone is asking for is for him to get to 6-6. It isn't an unreasonable goal.

I don't want Utah to have to move on, but the results on the field and in recruiting are extremely disturbing. Utah's recruiting class last year was pathetically bad. The year we fire a coach, we are going to have another really bad recruiting class. If Whittingham repeats last years class that will be 3 consecutive failed recruiting classes. That is a huge concern. Whittingham has to win now, not next year.

[sancho]

It seems like a lot of the not-fire Whittingham posts are because it is risky to hire a new coach. I absolutely agree it is a huge risk to fire a coach and hire a new coach. It could absolutely get worse with a new coach. It was the same thing in 2002 when the Utes fired a good coach in Ron McBride. Things could have gotten worse, but the risk was worth trying to elevate the program.


There are unknown probabilities along either path. Just because we were 5-7 two years in a row doesn't mean we don't go 9-3 next year. It's getting more and more rare in sports for people to show patience with a coach, but sometimes teams are rewarded for weathering a tough stretch. Maybe the Cowboys will be an example of that this year. Pretty much any other team in professional football would have canned Garrett by now, but for some reason Jerry Jones hasn't. We'll see what happens there.

I do think that, due to the crazy nature of college football recruiting, it is increasingly difficult and dangerous to hold onto a losing coach. It's nuts, but college football is the most "style over substance" sport out there.

[sancho]

Utah's recruiting class last year was pathetically bad. The year we fire a coach, we are going to have another really bad recruiting class. If Whittingham repeats last years class that will be 3 consecutive failed recruiting classes. That is a huge concern. Whittingham has to win now, not next year.

I don't follow recruiting very closely. How to you decide whether a recruiting class is a "failed" class?

[sancho]

I'm sure there are plenty of good coordinators, coaches at smaller schools, etc. who have what it takes to be a HC at this level.

Yes, there are thousands of people who can coach football well. But there are only dozens (if that) who have the name recognition, charisma, and luck to turn a middling P5 into a strong P5. We have 50 years of P5 history that indicates it's really really hard to move up in the college football caste system.

We won't know who the exciting candidates are for a while, but right now, that cupboard does not look very full.



If the Utes are looking for a coach in the offseason, I would hope that Hill casts the net more widely than just people tied to the program.

Is there any reason to think he wouldn't? His basketball hires have never had ties to Utah, right? Urban didn't have Utah ties. Isn't Whittingham the only hire he's made from within the program? He's done a pretty good job with hires. With the exception of Krystko, he's always landed someone that people were excited about and thought highly of.

[mpfunk]

I don't follow recruiting very closely. How to you decide whether a recruiting class is a "failed" class?

Look at the offers our recruits had.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[jrj84105]

Our recruit rankins across the board are on a multi-year decline. We are not recruiting on a trajectory to make up any kind of talent gap- we're falling further behind. Recruit rankings don't predict the success of individual players, but composite rankings do predict the success of a team pretty well. There are always going to be 2 star gems and 4 star flops, but in general, but you really can't build a winning P5 team with two star recruits because even the good ones aren't ready to provide neccesary depth early in their college careers.


As far as risk, I don't believe we have anything to lose on offense. We clearly have something to lose on defense. The great unknown is how well KS could maintain the defense without KW. I'm fairly confident that KS can recruit and evaluate talent on defense without Whittingham. KS (especially with an intro from DE) is our best recruiter hands down. I'm less afraid of the defensive dropoff with Sitake than I am hopeful of an offensive (and offense recruiting) upside with an offense-minded HC.

[jrj84105]

I don't follow recruiting very closely. How to you decide whether a recruiting class is a "failed" class?

If you followed recruiting you would probably see that this should be an "up year" for Utah relative to what is to come. Getting to 6-6 this year doesn't really indicate we'll get to 7-5 in 2015 and 8-4 in 2016. If anything, this year and 2015 may be peak years for a KW led Utah. From that perspective, 6-6 does not inspire much confidence.

[DrumNFeather]

Lost in all of the hoopla of the weekend, Kyle picked up his 80th win at Utah. Quite a way to do it.

[DrumNFeather]

5-1 and 2-1 in the league. This seat is getting cooler...let's hope it is ice cold by season's end!

[Applejack]

5-1 and 2-1 in the league. This seat is getting cooler...let's hope it is ice cold by season's end!

It's pretty damn icy right now. We're about to play 5 ranked teams in five weeks -we're going to lose many of those games and all the bipolar fans who this morning are deciding whether they want to play in the Fiesta or the Orange bowl will flip out and call for Kyle's head for failing to recruit a quarterback, not coaching up the receivers, calling timeouts before fgs, etc.

But the guy runs a pretty good system that takes advantage of Utah's inherent advantages (read: polynesian recruits). We're not going undefeated any time soon, but the level we're at now - competitive - is about the highest level that Utah will consistently acheive.

I'm really enjoying this season. I feel like Mac is back - the defense is must-watch-tv while the offense allows you to quickly use the bathroom before the awesomely entertaining punt and/or field goal units take the field.

[SeattleUte]

It's pretty damn icy right now. We're about to play 5 ranked teams in five weeks -we're going to lose many of those games and all the bipolar fans who this morning are deciding whether they want to play in the Fiesta or the Orange bowl will flip out and call for Kyle's head for failing to recruit a quarterback, not coaching up the receivers, calling timeouts before fgs, etc.

But the guy runs a pretty good system that takes advantage of Utah's inherent advantages (read: polynesian recruits). We're not going undefeated any time soon, but the level we're at now - competitive - is about the highest level that Utah will consistently acheive.

I'm really enjoying this season. I feel like Mac is back - the defense is must-watch-tv while the offense allows you to quickly use the bathroom before the awesomely entertaining punt and/or field goal units take the field.

Uh, the difference is that Mac coached in the WAC and we're in the Pac 12. You don't do Whit any favors comparing him to a mediocre coach like McBride.

[Applejack]

Uh, the difference is that Mac coached in the WAC and we're in the Pac 12. You don't do Whit any favors comparing him to a mediocre coach like McBride.

I'm not comparing their abilities - Kyle is clearly a better coach. Mac was more of a "friend" than a coach.

But, even a Pac-12 homer like yourself has to admit that watching our current edition of Utah Football has some eerie similarities to the teams from the 1990s (or as you would call it in Seattle, "the renaissance"):

- Absolutely no confidence in the QB(s).
- A running back who is so deadly that he makes you scream at the t.v. every time the ball is not simply handed to him.
- An agressive, ferocious defensive line that scares opponents. (The OSU center may have peed his pants last night).
- A general feeling that our best chance for a touchdown would come on an interception return.
- Potential for special teams magic.
- DBs that are fast, but occassionally get beat over the top because they are (a) short and (b) converted running backs.
- Tight ends that are just for show.

I could go on. Look, we're not Oregon; this is Utah football, and it started with Mac. Just embrace MAFU.

[Dawminator]

Uh, the difference is that Mac coached in the WAC and we're in the Pac 12. You don't do Whit any favors comparing him to a mediocre coach like McBride.

This is at best a very ignorant comment; at worst pretty damn stupid.

Utah would suck to this day if it weren't for Mac. No Urban Meyer, no Fiesta Bowl, No Sugar Bowl, no 34-31, no Kyle Whittingham and very likely no PAC 12. I get that MAC had his weaknesses as a coach, but lets try to be responsible and show even the tiniest smidgens of gratitude for saving the football program.

Who knows, if he inherited what he left to Meyer back in 1990, maybe we are talking about a few special years.

[LA Ute]

I have a Rivals membership and usually learn something from visiting that board. But man, there are a lot of people there who think they know an awful lot about football. It's kind of amusing to read their diagnoses of exactly what is wrong and prescriptions for what exactly ought to be done. The level of detail makes it all the more amusing.

[DrumNFeather]

I have a Rivals membership and usually learn something from visiting that board. But man, there are a lot of people there who think they know an awful lot about football. It's kind of amusing to read their diagnoses of exactly what is wrong and prescriptions for what exactly ought to be done. The level of detail makes it all the more amusing.
You're gonna have to give examples...can't just dangle that carrot!

[mpfunk]

Uh, the difference is that Mac coached in the WAC and we're in the Pac 12. You don't do Whit any favors comparing him to a mediocre coach like McBride.

Calling McBride a mediocre coach is ridiculous. The guy is a good coach and Utah owes a hell of a lot to him.

[LA Ute]

You're gonna have to give examples...can't just dangle that carrot!

It is a pay site so I really can't share too much. One example: There are multiple long posts about why stadium expansion must take place NOW and is such a no- brainer that Chris Hill is a fool for not seeing that obvious reality.

More on topic for this thread, many posters are certain about exactly what Kyle is doing wrong and why he should be fired. Some denigrate KW and refuse to give him any credit in an almost zoob-like manner. It's a minority but a large one.

[concerned]

I think his seat is pretty cold.and I am ecstatic about how tough this team is. And resilient. But he has got to get the offense figured out. We can't go on like this year after year. Has there ever been a quarterback who developed and became better after he arrived at the U? Other than Alex and BJ of course.

[Mormon Red Death]

I think his seat is pretty cold.and I am ecstatic about how tough this team is. And resilient. But he has got to get the office figured out. We can't go on like this year after year. Has there ever been a quarterback who developed and became better after he arrived at the U? Other than Alex and BJ of course.

Ratliff

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2

[USS Utah]

I think his seat is pretty cold.and I am ecstatic about how tough this team is. And resilient. But he has got to get the office figured out. We can't go on like this year after year. Has there ever been a quarterback who developed and became better after he arrived at the U? Other than Alex and BJ of course.

BJ at mid-season 2008 -- recall an offense that struggled at home against Oregon State -- was getting a lot of flack from the at least a portion of the fanbase.

[LA Ute]

BJ at mid-season 2008 -- recall an offense that struggled at home against Oregon State -- was getting a lot of flack from the at least a portion of the fanbase.

I remember him getting lots of flack over both his junior and senior years.

[DrumNFeather]

I remember him getting lots of flack over both his junior and senior years.
Wasn't he 5-5 when he got hurt vs. UNM? Ratliff came in and beat BYU that year...if I have my seasons right.

[LA Ute]

Wasn't he 5-5 when he got hurt vs. UNM? Ratliff came in and beat BYU that year...if I have my seasons right.

I remember lots of people (including me) wondering if he had the killer instinct (it turned out he did) and why he always seemed to have happy feet. He got better.

[USS Utah]

Wasn't he 5-5 when he got hurt vs. UNM? Ratliff came in and beat BYU that year...if I have my seasons right.

That was his true soph year.

[SeattleUte]

This is at best a very ignorant comment; at worst pretty damn stupid.

Utah would suck to this day if it weren't for Mac. No Urban Meyer, no Fiesta Bowl, No Sugar Bowl, no 34-31, no Kyle Whittingham and very likely no PAC 12. I get that MAC had his weaknesses as a coach, but lets try to be responsible and show even the tiniest smidgens of gratitude for saving the football program.

Who knows, if he inherited what he left to Meyer back in 1990, maybe we are talking about a few special years.

This is like saying had there been no Middle Ages after the fall of Rome there would have been no Renaissance, no Enlightenment, and no America. It's hard to argue with what actually happened. But hell, wasn't there a more direct way? Actually, you can look at it the other way and say the fact there was ancient Greece and ancient Rome and there is now modern Europe and the United States shows that the Middle Ages really underacheived.

I was born in 1958, I have been a diehard ute fan since I was six, and I did not see them win an outright football championship until Urban Meyer in 2003. That's unacceptable. They were a big fish in a small pond and should have been dominating the WAC and MWC like they ultimately did, and like Arizona State did before it went to the pac 12.

I've been consistent. Clear back when Matt had his board, and in the early days of Webmonkey's board, I said I didn't like Mac. I always felt his teams were undisciplined, and underachieving. yes, he was a friend, the players' asshole buddy. Look what he did at Weber. Nothing. I wanted him fired five years before it happened. He was a mediocre coach. Better than Tom Lovat and the others, yes. But we deserved much more, and history says I'm right. Thank God Chris Hill finally fired him or we'd still be in the MWC.

By the way, I've been consistent in defending Whit and saying it's ludicrous to say he's on the hot seat and I defended Majerus until the bitter end, after LA and SoCal and most everyone else abandoned him. I love our current basketball coach. Mac, not so much. And yes, I loath Boylen.

[Dawminator]

This is like saying had there been no Middle Ages after the fall of Rome there would have been no Renaissance, no Enlightenment, and no America. It's hard to argue with what actually happened. But hell, wasn't there a more direct way? Actually, you can look at it the other way and say the fact there was ancient Greece and ancient Rome and there is now modern Europe and the United States shows that the Middle Ages really underacheived.

I was born in 1958, I have been a diehard ute fan since I was six, and I did not see them win an outright football championship until Urban Meyer in 2003. That's unacceptable. They were a big fish in a small pond and should have been dominating the WAC and MWC like they ultimately did, and like Arizona State did before it went to the pac 12.

I've been consistent. Clear back when Matt had his board, and in the early days of Webmonkey's board, I said I didn't like Mac. I always felt his teams were undisciplined, and underachieving. yes, he was a friend, the players' asshole buddy. Look what he did at Weber. Nothing. I wanted him fired five years before it happened. He was a mediocre coach. Better than Tom Lovat and the others, yes. But we deserved much more, and history says I'm right. Thank God Chris Hill finally fired him or we'd still be in the MWC.

By the way, I've been consistent in defending Whit and saying it's ludicrous to say he's on the hot seat and I defended Majerus until the bitter end, after LA and SoCal and most everyone else abandoned him. I love our current basketball coach. Mac, not so much. And yes, I loath Boylen.

Congratulations on being consistently stupid regarding Mac.

[SeattleUte]

Congratulations on being consistently stupid regarding Mac.

Congratulations on being consistently insipid regarding Mac.

[LA Ute]

By the way, I've been consistent in defending Whit and saying it's ludicrous to say he's on the hot seat and I defended Majerus until the bitter end, after LA and SoCal and most everyone else abandoned him.

Wow. You think these loyalties to certain Utah coaches are shining examples of your Ute fandom? And you think they have something to do with AJ's perfectly unoffensive comment that watching this year's Ute team reminds him of Mac's teams?

[SeattleUte]

Wow. You think these loyalties to certain Utah coaches are shining examples of your Ute fandom? And you think they have something to do with AJ's perfectly unoffensive comment that watching this year's Ute team reminds him of Mac's teams?

I didn't make that argument. I only described my Ute fandom for background. I do think my judgments of these coaches have been sound, regardless of my fandom.

[OrangeUte]

I don't know how anyone can call Kyle's offenses anything other than frustrating to watch.

I also don't know how anyone can call kyle's seat anything but cold.

[LA Ute]

I didn't make that argument. I only described my Ute fandom for background. I do think my judgments of these coaches have been sound, regardless of my fandom.

Reasonable and knowledgeable fans have had questions about whether Kyle has what it takes to succeed in the PAC-12. The same was true of the question whether it was time for Majerus to move on. (Think runnutz on both questions.) If you have thought differently that means you simply had a different view. It's not a mark of Ute fan sagacity or virtue. Or am I reading you incorrectly?

[WhiskyPriest]

I expect us to resign Coach Whitt. The players obviously love him and are fighting for him. I personally love the toughness the Utes are displaying this year, if only we had a passing game...

[SeattleUte]

Reasonable and knowledgeable fans have had questions about whether Kyle has what it takes to succeed in the PAC-12. The same was true of the question whether it was time for Majerus to move on. (Think runnutz on both questions.) If you have thought differently that means you simply had a different view. It's not a mark of Ute fan sagacity or virtue. Or am I reading you incorrectly?

I never questioned your ute fandom virtue. I did question your sagacity about Kyle and Rick in the past. But hHere I was just making the point that nowithstanding my dislike for Boylen and opinion that Mac is overrated, I'm not a knee jerk fire the coach fan.

[LA Ute]

I never questioned your ute fandom virtue. I did question your sagacity about Kyle and Rick in the past. But hHere I was just making the point that nowithstanding my dislike for Boylen and opinion that Mac is overrated, I'm not a knee jerk fire the coach fan.

Stipulated.

[LA Ute]

Guess who's on the Bear Bryant Coach of the Year Watch List?

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/10/24/bear-bryant-award-releases-20-coach-watch-list/

[DrumNFeather]

I move to suspend this thread...or delete the m-fer all together!

[Applejack]

I move to suspend this thread...or delete the m-fer all together!

Second!

[USS Utah]

I love you Kyle!

[mpfunk]

He is off the hot seat. He may even get an extension.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[Applejack]

He is off the hot seat. He may even get an extension.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

Is that Funk driving JiC's train?

[DrumNFeather]

He is off the hot seat. He may even get an extension.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
Though some of it was self inflicted (ok, a lot) he gets big credit for weathering the storm. House money the rest of the way!

[LA Ute]

I move to suspend this thread...or delete the m-fer all together!

Now it's just The Kyle Whittingham Thread. How's that?

[Solon]

Now it's just The Kyle Whittingham Thread. How's that?
Yes. Good work.

[Ma'ake]

Here's an impressive video from last night. This stuff is priceless. Whitt has mastered the motivational speech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfhdEpPBQps

1. Impressive that this got put together this quickly. Invaluable, for recruiting, for cohesion, all the way around. It makes *me* want to run through a wall for Whitt. (OK, that's a blatant exaggeration. I would run through a shower curtain maybe, if I knew what was on the other side.)

2. I actually found this gem on Cougarboard, where a longtime Y fan was alerting that crowd that Utah is pulling away, that "true BYU blue" family kids where watching this video on an iPad, at church, and *they* were stoked. "We are losing the new generation" (paraphrase).

[Devildog]

Since it now appears that Utah has found a way to win conference games... Kyle deserves to be off the hook. We need to be able to keep at it.

This is a tough business. There is adversity every week.

The Washington State game to start our conference schedule wasn't that long ago and it looked bleak heading into a meat grinder with that home loss to one of our weakest PAC 12 competitors fresh on our minds. Then Kyle and this team did what we all wanted to see by going out there and getting it done the hard way...and he reminded us all how good he can be. We hadn't really witnessed that since moving into the PAC... but now we have, and he has demonstrated that he can do it at this level. So glad to see it, I've always liked Kyle as our coach and wanted him to find this kind of success. Great, give the man an extension... but now take this bad-ass team and go fight for a conference championship.

[concerned]

I was so despondent after Wazzou. Like everybody else, I want kW to succeed more than anything, and after that game i was sure he wasn't going to ever get past 5-7, because I didn't think he would ever get the offense untracked. what a difference a month makes.

[Devildog]

what a difference a month makes.

Hell yes.

Expectations always changing. At the beginning of the season I was hoping for bowl eligibility... Now I'm almost embarrassed to say it... I want to beat ASU so bad and make a serious run at the conference championship. I really think they can fawkin' do it.

[LA Ute]

I actually found this gem on Cougarboard, where a longtime Y fan was alerting that crowd that Utah is pulling away, that "true BYU blue" family kids where watching this video on an iPad, at church, and *they* were stoked. "We are losing the new generation" (paraphrase).

The last really good team BYU had (some would say the only really good one) was in 1996. That means that anyone under 30 or so has only a childhood memory of it.

[SigmaUte]

The terrifying thing though, as good as this team is, it might be better next year. Yes we lose some great players, but that happens every year. We return a lot of great players too. I think the great reason I am optimistic is that we will have a OC for more than a 1. Travis Wilson will have a chance to be in the same system for multiple years. That will be huge.

Anyways, this year isn't even close to being over so not worth thinking about it.

Utah has been a pleasant surprise, but they have to keep taking care of business.

Just win baby, Go Utes!

[Homer Crimson]

As a reformed Kyle doubter, I think his butt is frozen to his seat and I'm thinking he gets an extension even if we only go 4-1 in the last 5 games. I still think his handling of the OC position and the offense in general raises red flags about his overall team management abilities, but I think he's progressing along with the program, so as long as he keeps showing improvement he's solid. I will always miss having a prolific offense, and I think Kyle's game management philosophy is usually going to mean low-scoring games that tend to be uncomfortably close, but I'll take it and grin. No looking back; Kyle's our man for the next few seasons.

[sancho]

even if we only go 4-1 in the last 5 games

4-1? The oddsmakers are probably guessing we go 1-4 in the last 5 games. Will we be a favorite against anyone other than CU? Maybe Arizona if they cool down between now and then.

[Applejack]

4-1? The oddsmakers are probably guessing we go 1-4 in the last 5 games. Will we be a favorite against anyone other than CU? Maybe Arizona if they cool down between now and then.

LOL. If he goes 4-1 he'll definitely get an extension - from Michigan.

[U-Ute]

As a reformed Kyle doubter, I think his butt is frozen to his seat and I'm thinking he gets an extension even if we only go 4-1 in the last 5 games. I still think his handling of the OC position and the offense in general raises red flags about his overall team management abilities, but I think he's progressing along with the program, so as long as he keeps showing improvement he's solid. I will always miss having a prolific offense, and I think Kyle's game management philosophy is usually going to mean low-scoring games that tend to be uncomfortably close, but I'll take it and grin. No looking back; Kyle's our man for the next few seasons.

I hope he gets an extension if we go 2-3.

[DrumNFeather]

Kyle is on the latest one on one show with Yogi Roth on the Pac 12 Network.

[jrj84105]

Against USC our offense looked like it was starting to figure out what it is. More than wins and losses, that's what I've wanted to see happen this year. Now we're without Dres. We've seen more two TE sets in recent games. Will Scott, Patrick, Tonga, Faikiloatonga, Booker, Wilson, and an improving O-line emerge as the Power Spread offense that seems like such a natural fit for Utah? Are we the team that Stanford was supposed to be?

[USS Utah]

Ted Miller tweet:

"Kyle Whittingham is no longer on an even warm seat. Utah has wins over USC, UCLA & Stanford. That’s impressive."

Link:

https://twitter.com/TedMillerRK/status/533805891808538624

[U-Ute]

Nebraska reported to have met with Kyle.

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/12/04/report-nebraska-also-met-with-utah-head-coach-kyle-whittingham/

[chrisrenrut]

Nebraska reported to have met with Kyle.

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/12/04/report-nebraska-also-met-with-utah-head-coach-kyle-whittingham/


But the Utah coach apparently didn’t fit all the criteria Eichorst set forth for Nebraska’s head coach like Riley did.

Or hopefully more likely, Kyle turned them down flat.

[Applejack]

Or hopefully more likely, Kyle turned them down flat.

I'm sure Kyle listened. I would. Nebraska is a great football program. If he choose to stay at Utah, it's probably because Nebraska fans are more delusional than Utah fans.

[chrisrenrut]

I'm sure Kyle listened. I would. Nebraska is a great football program. If he choose to stay at Utah, it's probably because Nebraska fans are more delusional than Utah fans.

I'm sure he listened. But my guess is that they couldn't offer him enough to make it worth it to him to uproot his family, and leave what he has built here.

[Sullyute]

It is nice to know that Kyle has gone from the hot seat to the hot list. I think we are lucky to have what we do. Oregon State fans are going to learn this the hard way.

[Diehard Ute]

There's reports locally that Nebraska never talked to Kyle. I wouldn't put it past Nebraska media to include Phantom candidates after a strange hire

[Applejack]

There's reports locally that Nebraska never talked to Kyle. I wouldn't put it past Nebraska media to include Phantom candidates after a strange hire

Haha. This would be awesome. "Trust us, we looked at other Pac-12 coaches before we settled on Oregon State's coach."

[Solon]

Haha. This would be awesome. "Trust us, we looked at other Pac-12 coaches before we settled on Oregon State's coach."

After what they did to Solich, I wouldn't put anything past Nebraska. Weren't they ranked top-20 when he got fired?
I remember thinking at the time that there must have been some kind of scandal or academic problem that eventually would come out to explain the move.

[NorthwestUteFan]

There's reports locally that Nebraska never talked to Kyle. I wouldn't put it past Nebraska media to include Phantom candidates after a strange hire

"You wouldn't believe some of the resumés I have received for the OC job..."

~Kyle Whittingham, a few days prior to hiring Brian Johnson as OC

[justaute]

And, yet, we still can't run an average offense.


"You wouldn't believe some of the resumés I have received for the OC job..."

~Kyle Whittingham, a few days prior to hiring Brian Johnson as OC

[NorthwestUteFan]

And, yet, we still can't run an average offense.

I am not convinced that KWhitt knows what constitutes a great offense.

[chrisrenrut]

Interesting and comprehensive (nice way of saying looong) write up by a Michigan fan on Kyle being part of their plan B if Harbaugh doesn't come. Kind of an interesting read to see an outsiders perspective of Kyle.

http://mgoblog.com/diaries/cc-evaluating-kyle-whittingham-plan-b-option

[chrisrenrut]

I was interested in Kyle's current contract, specifically the buyout. Turns out it is nowhere near what McIlwains was at CSU, just $200k per year remaining on the contract.

http://sports.newsday.com/long-island/data/college/college-football/coaches-salaries/kyle-whittingham/

And no mention of automatic extension clauses like I thought I had heard about.

[LA Ute]

Interesting and comprehensive (nice way of saying looong) write up by a Michigan fan on Kyle being part of their plan B if Harbaugh doesn't come. Kind of an interesting read to see an outsiders perspective of Kyle.

http://mgoblog.com/diaries/cc-evaluating-kyle-whittingham-plan-b-option

That was pretty impressive and in-depth. This is an interesting statement:


Utah is not a talent rich area of the country and what talent there is will get swiped often by BYU or regional Pac 12 powers - hell, even Michigan can go in and get a guy like Mone.

Probably more true than I'd like to admit.

[Diehard Ute]

I was interested in Kyle's current contract, specifically the buyout. Turns out it is nowhere near what McIlwains was at CSU, just $200k per year remaining on the contract.

http://sports.newsday.com/long-island/data/college/college-football/coaches-salaries/kyle-whittingham/

And no mention of automatic extension clauses like I thought I had heard about.

The automatic extension was in the original 2008 deal which was extended in 2011

https://law.marquette.edu/assets/sports-law/pdf/gcc-rollover-art.pdf

Scroll down a ways to the part about Kyle.

I'd prefer to see the actual contract and not a summary....it was published at some point but I can't find it.

[OrangeUte]

Kyle to Michigan. That's interesting. Given the sniping with Harbaugh and the 49ers, I think it's hard to believe Harbaugh isn't in Ann Arbor this next year. But they will likely have to wait until January to make the announcement. That isn't going to be good for recruiting.

[U-Ute]

Kyle to Michigan. That's interesting. Given the sniping with Harbaugh and the 49ers, I think it's hard to believe Harbaugh isn't in Ann Arbor this next year. But they will likely have to wait until January to make the announcement. That isn't going to be good for recruiting.

Michigan's desire to make winning the press conference their top priority will keep them from chasing Kyle.

[OrangeUte]

Michigan's desire to make winning the press conference their top priority will keep them from chasing Kyle.

I think so too. Will they wait until the nfl season is over just to get Harbaugh?

[U-Ute]

I think so too. Will they wait until the nfl season is over just to get Harbaugh?

I am sure they already have an idea of whether or not they have a shot at Harbaugh. If they think they have a chance they will wait.

[justaute]

If I were running Michigan, I wouldn't chase Kyle at all. Don't get me wrong, Kyle is a terrific coach, especially on the defensive side. Though, given his inability to at least administer the offensive side of things, Kyle just would not be included on my list. Even on the defensive side, yes, we have had a lot of studs, but it's not as though we the top 1% statistically speaking.


Michigan's desire to make winning the press conference their top priority will keep them from chasing Kyle.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I can't see any way Michigan will go after a second Defensive-minded coach after firing Hoke.

[Diehard Ute]

Word floating around Twitter is the spoke with Harbaugh and Michigan left feeling that he only wanted to coach in the NFL

[SoCalPat]

I think so too. Will they wait until the nfl season is over just to get Harbaugh?

The Niners ain't making the playoffs, and much of late December/early January is a dead period for recruiting anyway.

[utefan]

Rumors are flying that Whitt is going to be offered another job. If it's true, do we extend him and give him a huge raise, or do we lose him?

[Diehard Ute]

Rumors are flying that Whitt is going to be offered another job. If it's true, do we extend him and give him a huge raise, or do we lose him?

Perhaps you could provide a link to these rumors (outside the Detroit radio guys "sources" tweet)

[utefan]

Perhaps you could provide a link to these rumors (outside the Detroit radio guys "sources" tweet)
They were talking about it on 1280 today.

I also heard it a few days ago from a friend of mine who has a source that has been pretty reliable in the past.

[UTEopia]

Rumors are flying that Whitt is going to be offered another job. If it's true, do we extend him and give him a huge raise, or do we lose him?

I think his contract currently ends at the end of the 2016 season (two more seasons) and might automatically extend 1 more year based on winning 8 games this year. If that is the case, I would extend the total deal 5 years. That essentially adds 2 more years. I would think you would need to increase his salary to 2.2 mil which is what GA is getting at Oregon St. I think you would also need to give KS an extended deal (maybe 3 years) and also do new two year deals with Tuiaki, Shah, Scalley, ARod and Erickson. DC, Stubblefield and Harding still have a year left on their deals. I would not be in any hurry to do an extension with any of them with the exception of Harding.

[Diehard Ute]

They were talking about it on 1280 today.

I also heard it a few days ago from a friend of mine who has a source that has been pretty reliable in the past.

1280 was just running the guy from Detroits tweet that kyle was "in Ann Arbor"

[utefan]

1280 was just running the guy from Detroits tweet that kyle was "in Ann Arbor"
There was that, and Hans also said that he'd heard some things from his sources that he wasn't ready to say on the record yet.

[Scorcho]

1280 was just running the guy from Detroits tweet that kyle was "in Ann Arbor"

Utah Football on twitter shows Utah (with Whitt) accepting the Vegas Bowl invite today at the football offices.

Diehard with the win.

[Diehard Ute]

Utah Football on twitter shows Utah (with Whitt) accepting the Vegas Bowl invite today at the football offices.

Yeah. The guy implied it was this week but avoided any details. Lots of people called him out on kyle being in the facility today

[Homer Crimson]

Time to bring "Hot Seat" back to this thread? Has anyone substantiated the rumors of Hill being done with Kyle and having a replacement lined up?

[utefan]

Time to bring "Hot Seat" back to this thread? Has anyone substantiated the rumors of Hill being done with Kyle and having a replacement lined up?
I don't know if Hill is done with him or not. You'd have to be pretty close to Hill to know the answer to that. But with all that's going on, if Hill doesn't have a backup plan, aka a replacement lined up, then Hill isn't doing his job.

[NorthwestUteFan]

It seems that with Whitt's automatic contract extension it will be impossible to fire him. To do so would be very expensive and would almost assuredly poison the water at Utah for years yo come.

[LA Ute]

I don't know if Hill is done with him or not. You'd have to be pretty close to Hill to know the answer to that. But with all that's going on, if Hill doesn't have a backup plan, aka a replacement lined up, then Hill isn't doing his job.

Hill always has an up-to-date list of vetted candidates for all his head coach positions. The idea is not to be starting from scratch if a coach leaves.

[Slim]

Hill always has an up-to-date list of vetted candidates for all his head coach positions. The idea is not to be starting from scratch if a coach leaves.

True but it sounds like Hill is pushing him out the door. If this is the case and he doesn't have some one waiting to be name shortly thereafter, he looks like an ass.

[LA Ute]

True but it sounds like Hill is pushing him out the door. If this is the case and he doesn't have some one waiting to be name shortly thereafter, he looks like an ass.

He would look even worse than that. Well, it now looks like KW is not going anywhere, but it's my understanding that Hill will never be without a list of successor candidates at hand. I'm sure he has one for football right now.

[SeattleUte]

True but it sounds like Hill is pushing him out the door. If this is the case and he doesn't have some one waiting to be name shortly thereafter, he looks like an ass.

This is not how it ever works. It's a fantasy. Even USC doesn't fire a coach and then announce at the same time they've got a dream candidate lined up. Usually what happens, even at USC, is you fire the coach and then you go through weeks of frustration as your first half dozen or so prospects announce they're not interested or withdaw. It's what happened even when they wound up with Pete Carroll or Sarkesian.

At Utah, which has 100th the magnetism of USC, and would be firing the most successful coach (by far) in its history after a 9-4 Pac 12 season with wins over USC, UCLA, Stanford, and Michigan, and a 45-10 bowl game whipping of a 10-2 Colorado State team coached by a very admired individual who's leaving for a truly plum job, and a finish in the academic top 10, the problem would be magnified by 1000x. If Chris Hill fires Whittingham the entire country would agree he should be taken away in a straight jacket. It's simply not going to happen no matter how much Hill may hate his highly accomplished head coach because Hill would go up in flames if he did it.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I am sure there are plenty of USC fans who are upset about hiring Sarkiffian. Especially after the BC game.

[mUUser]

This is not how it ever works. It's a fantasy. Even USC doesn't fire a coach and then announce at the same time they've got a dream candidate lined up.......

The coaching profession is a fraternity of sorts. Any coach worth his salt won't interview for a job while the job is still filled. True, it probably wouldn't take much to convince Justin Fuente or Matt Wells, but would take more than a polite phone call to wrap up Mullen, Anderson or someone of their caliber. Still, nobody we'd ever be interested in will interview with Hill behind Whitt's back. Replacing a successful and respected coach like KW with an equivalent prospect will be a crap shoot at best.

[justaute]

Whatever the truth is, there is just too much drama with all the coaching carousel in recent years. I am much more concerned, relatively speaking, about the current and prospective players.

[sancho]

True but it sounds like Hill is pushing him out the door. If this is the case and he doesn't have some one waiting to be name shortly thereafter, he looks like an ass.

That's not what I've been reading. Hill made huge contract offers to sitake to get him to stay. It looks more and more like sitake left over a bruised ego that turned into a fire of stupid when Gary Anderson poured his snake oil all over it.

I know very little here, but so far it seems like Anderson and sitake are the bad guys. I'm guessing whittingham can't be very happy about all this.

I'm still in the scalley and arod camp.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I echo Sancho. Sitake was essentially offered a 50% pay increase and a 3-yr contract. He chose to walk away from that. I don't think Hill would offer that big of an increase and time extension if he wanted to to push Whitt out the door.

I am sure Kalani has personal reasons for leaving which may involve a bruised ego, but to tell the truth the challenge at OSU will be good for him. If the can turn the defense into a powerhouse he will show himself to be a highly competent coach.

[OrangeUte]

I echo Sancho. Sitake was essentially offered a 50% pay increase and a 3-yr contract. He chose to walk away from that. I don't think Hill would offer that big of an increase and time extension if he wanted to to push Whitt out the door.

I am sure Kalani has personal reasons for leaving which may involve a bruised ego, but to tell the truth the challenge at OSU will be good for him. If the can turn the defense into a powerhouse he will show himself to be a highly competent coach.

Good point and reminder in this crazy set of facts.

[OrangeUte]

http://www.sltrib.com/sports/1992784-155/monson-whittingham-will-leave-utah-i?fullpage=1

Hhhheeeerrreeee's Monson! Weighing in.... But not weighing in. He really doesn't have anything to report that we haven't covered.

[justaute]

However the situation plays-out, the coaching-carousel at the U has been embarrassing.

[chrisrenrut]

Here is my take right now. Tell me where I am wrong:

Kyle and Chris Hill worked together to put an offer together to keep Sitake, Tuiaki, and Christensen (based on email records). They were unsuccessful in doing so, for reasons we can only speculate about. This may or may not have added pressure to the negotiations for Kyle's own contract.

Kyle's contract was automatically extended by one year due to reaching 9 wins this year. Speculation is that there is contract negotiation going on. Kyle wants more years, and a larger base for more security if he were to be let go in the future. Chris Hill is gun shy at giving more years or more base, for reasons we can only speculate at. It could be that he is not sold on Kyle's success yet, since he can't keep an offensive coordinator around or develop an offensive identity, he has losing seasons 2 out of the last 3 years, he doesn't like or is tired of Kyle, or he has some ringer replacement waiting in the wings.

Given Kyle's position, he may have looked at options outside of Utah, to either strengthen his negotiating position, or have an exit strategy if negotiations are unable to come to a satisfactory conclusion. This may include, in order of likelihood: Michigan, Pitt, Ohio St, or BYU.

Chris Hill may have been putting feelers out, or outright offered replacements including: Dan Mullen, Gary Anderson, or Dennis Erickson.

There are only anonymous sources for everything listed as speculation. Sources seem to be recycled ad infinitum, creating for some, the appearance of legitimacy.

Edit- The automatic extension was incorrect. The wording in the contract stated 9 wins in a 12 game regular season, or 6 conference wins.

[UTEopia]

Here is my take right now. Tell me where I am wrong:

Kyle and Chris Hill worked together to put an offer together to keep Sitake, Tuiaki, and Christensen (based on email records). They were unsuccessful in doing so, for reasons we can only speculate about. This may or may not have added pressure to the negotiations for Kyle's own contract.

Kyle's contract was automatically extended by one year due to reaching 9 wins this year. Speculation is that there is contract negotiation going on. Kyle wants more years, and a larger base for more security if he were to be let go in the future. Chris Hill is gun shy at giving more years or more base, for reasons we can only speculate at. It could be that he is not sold on Kyle's success yet, since he can't keep an offensive coordinator around or develop an offensive identity, he has losing seasons 2 out of the last 3 years, he doesn't like or is tired of Kyle, or he has some ringer replacement waiting in the wings.

Given Kyle's position, he may have looked at options outside of Utah, to either strengthen his negotiating position, or have an exit strategy if negotiations are unable to come to a satisfactory conclusion. This may include, in order of likelihood: Michigan, Pitt, Ohio St, or BYU.

Chris Hill may have been putting feelers out, or outright offered replacements including: Dan Mullen, Gary Anderson, or Dennis Erickson.

There are only anonymous sources for everything listed as speculation. Sources seem to be recycled ad infinitum, creating for some, the appearance of legitimacy.



That pretty well sums up what I think.

[LA Ute]

That pretty well sums up what I think.

But wouldn't it be a huge breach of etiquette for CH to be talking to another coach, and/or for another coach to be talking to CH, while Kyle is still under contract?

[SeattleUte]

Here is my take right now. Tell me where I am wrong:

Kyle and Chris Hill worked together to put an offer together to keep Sitake, Tuiaki, and Christensen (based on email records). They were unsuccessful in doing so, for reasons we can only speculate about. This may or may not have added pressure to the negotiations for Kyle's own contract.

Kyle's contract was automatically extended by one year due to reaching 9 wins this year. Speculation is that there is contract negotiation going on. Kyle wants more years, and a larger base for more security if he were to be let go in the future. Chris Hill is gun shy at giving more years or more base, for reasons we can only speculate at. It could be that he is not sold on Kyle's success yet, since he can't keep an offensive coordinator around or develop an offensive identity, he has losing seasons 2 out of the last 3 years, he doesn't like or is tired of Kyle, or he has some ringer replacement waiting in the wings.

Given Kyle's position, he may have looked at options outside of Utah, to either strengthen his negotiating position, or have an exit strategy if negotiations are unable to come to a satisfactory conclusion. This may include, in order of likelihood: Michigan, Pitt, Ohio St, or BYU.

Chris Hill may have been putting feelers out, or outright offered replacements including: Dan Mullen, Gary Anderson, or Dennis Erickson.

There are only anonymous sources for everything listed as speculation. Sources seem to be recycled ad infinitum, creating for some, the appearance of legitimacy.

Edit- The automatic extension was incorrect. The wording in the contract stated 9 wins in a 12 game regular season, or 6 conference wins.

You are yourself recycling rumors, saying Hill has put out feelers. If he put out feelers to Gary Andersen it's unbelievable to me; it would be really stupid because chances are Andersen would tell Whittingham. Andersen isn't going anywhere. His reputation is not so made that he can look like a complete flake. Oregon State is a comparable job to Utah.

I think what's going on is Whittingham has a lot more leverage than Hill; he's Utah's most successful coach ever, succeeding in every aspect of his calling and universally admired including by fans, and Hill has no other options. (My initial supposition that a few big donors were goading Hill to make a change may well be wrong as this is starting to appear all about the negotiations.) And Hill is leaking all this innuendo to try to get a foothold for himself.

We've seen that one way for people in the college sports biz to generate loyalty is to provide access (see Boylen and his apologists). When contracts are in play, Hill creates this situation of Hill vs. the coach and the amateur and professional pundits take sides accordingly.

Hill needs to just suck it up and give Whit more money and some security. It's upsetting how badly hill has bungled this already. Costing us our defensive coodinator and another valuable defensive assistant.

I haven't been seduced by access to Hill so I tell it like it is.

[LA Ute]

I haven't been seduced by access to Hill so I tell it like it is.

You are reaching new levels of awesomeness with each new Chris Hill post.

[UtahsMrSports]

Anyone catch the article in the d news about this? Whoever dirk facers source was, he was very very careful in how he worded. Not one word about kyle coming back, just that he is not being forced out.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Jim Harbaugh = Michigan coach and will be in the sidelines in RES next Sept. It will be interesting to see what happens now that NFL jobs will open up.

Who will be on our sidelines? If it is Whitt, then he needs to find and hire the best OC in the history of the program...

[Diehard Ute]

Anyone catch the article in the d news about this? Whoever dirk facers source was, he was very very careful in how he worded. Not one word about kyle coming back, just that he is not being forced out.

You're reading into things that aren't there

The Tribune is now backing off their rift story as well.

[UtahsMrSports]

You're reading into things that aren't there

The Tribune is now backing off their rift story as well.

Well, lol, yeah, there are things definitely not there......

And do you have a link for the trib backing off their story?

[sancho]

Who will be on our sidelines? If it is Whitt, then he needs to find and hire the best OC in the history of the program...

ARod, part II. Full circle. And it's gonna work just fine.

[LA Ute]

Anyone catch the article in the d news about this? Whoever dirk facers source was, he was very very careful in how he worded. Not one word about kyle coming back, just that he is not being forced out.

I noticed that too.

[NorthwestUteFan]

ARod, part II. Full circle. And it's gonna work just fine.

Perpetual mediocrity, here we come! (Or maybe we never left)

[sancho]

Perpetual mediocrity, here we come! (Or maybe we never left)

Oh, we left. And we're not going back. Kyle will still be here winning games after the name Gary Anderson has been long forgotten. And ARod is gonna kill it the second time around.

[utefan]

Jim Harbaugh = Michigan coach and will be in the sidelines in RES next Sept. It will be interesting to see what happens now that NFL jobs will open up.

Who will be on our sidelines? If it is Whitt, then he needs to find and hire the best OC in the history of the program...
It doesn't even matter who our OC is. After running through 7 of them with the exact same offense and exact same problems, it's pretty obvious our offensive problems come from Whittingham.

Unless Whittingham agrees to back off and let the OC have total control, then we'll be seeing more of the same.

It's like Whittingham thinks the only job of the offense is to stay on the field long enough to give the defense a break. Then the special teams comes in and either gets 3 points or gets a great punt so the defense has good field position.

[sancho]

It doesn't even matter who our OC is. After running through 7 of them with the exact same offense and exact same problems, it's pretty obvious our offensive problems come from Whittingham.

Unless Whittingham agrees to back off and let the OC have total control, then we'll be seeing more of the same.

It's like Whittingham thinks the only job of the offense is to stay on the field long enough to give the defense a break. Then the special teams comes in and either gets 3 points or gets a great punt so the defense has good field position.

I've never seen any evidence that Kyle does this with the offense. That is not the problem. The problem is the personnel, the injuries, and the carousel leading to a lack of offensive identity.

Chow was the domino that started our problems. I like the symmetry of going back to Arod. Symbolically erase the decade of chasing after something better.

[Utah]

Doesn't ARod as OC guarantee Wilson is our starter next year? Also, given ARod's history, doesn't it mean our offense looks the same as it has the last 4 years?

Whitt is what Whitt is.

[sancho]

Doesn't ARod as OC guarantee Wilson is our starter next year? Also, given ARod's history, doesn't it mean our offense looks the same as it has the last 4 years?

Whitt is what Whitt is.

I don't see why. Arod and Whitt can run a QB competition in the Spring like anyone else. And if Travis wins that competition, we know we at least have a guy who can get us wins.

Arod is the closest thing to continuity we can have, and continuity is what we have needed so badly for so long.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Aaron did achieve his goal of 'minmizing turnovers' this year, so that is a positive. But we can't seem to improve our QB's abilities read a defense and to check down.

Whether you love him or hate him, Mike Leach has the knack for training his QBs to make snap decisions and to throw to the right place at the right time. I do not necessarily want our offense to look like the Air Raid, but there are some improvements to be had and our coaching staff seems to perennially struggle with this aspect.

[Snowman]

My opinion of Leach increased exponentially after her locked Craig James' spoiled brat in the tool shed.

[UTEopia]

Doesn't ARod as OC guarantee Wilson is our starter next year? Also, given ARod's history, doesn't it mean our offense looks the same as it has the last 4 years?


If ARod is the OC the offense he would like to run will look a lot like what Baylor runs.

[SeattleUte]

Whatever happened to Urban's OC at Utah, the guy that flamed out at Vegas, except for the high water mark 27-0 whipping he gave Whit that launched Whit's glorious run?

[sancho]

Whatever happened to Urban's OC at Utah, the guy that flamed out at Vegas, except for the high water mark 27-0 whipping he gave Whit that launched Whit's glorious run?

Mike Sanford is the head coach at Indiana State.

[LA Ute]

Mike Sanford is the head coach at Indiana State.

He really wanted the Utah job after Urban left, but Chris Hill didn't even give him a look.


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[utefan]

If ARod is the OC the offense he would like to run will look a lot like what Baylor runs.
You mean if ARod is the head coach he'd run Baylor's offense. If he was the OC, he'd run the same crap that Whittingham has forced everyone else to run all these years.

The most important thing the offense can do is give the defense a rest. Let special teams and defense win the game. I am starting to think Whittingham actually believes this.

Remember early in the season when the Utes were putting up 50+ points against crappy teams, and all the players kept saying they hadn't even scratched the surface of the plays yet? Then the wheels fell off the offense against Michigan, and we wondered where those plays were all season. Then in the bowl game, boom, the Ute offense comes out swinging.

Too bad we didn't see that double pass reverse against Arizona State.

Whittingham is very good at getting defensive players to play above their capabilities. He's just the opposite with offensive players. I have no doubt that if another coach were coaching the same guys, they'd get much more production out of our offense. Our defense would probably take a hit, but our offense would improve.

We've been blaming the QB, OC, offensive line, and everyone else for years and years. It's time we start placing the blame where it belongs. Our offense sucks every year because we have a head coach that thinks the most important thing an offense can do is give the defense a rest.

[sancho]

You mean if ARod is the head coach he'd run Baylor's offense. If he was the OC, he'd run the same crap that Whittingham has forced everyone else to run all these years.

The most important thing the offense can do is give the defense a rest. Let special teams and defense win the game. I am starting to think Whittingham actually believes this.

Remember early in the season when the Utes were putting up 50+ points against crappy teams, and all the players kept saying they hadn't even scratched the surface of the plays yet? Then the wheels fell off the offense against Michigan, and we wondered where those plays were all season. Then in the bowl game, boom, the Ute offense comes out swinging.

Too bad we didn't see that double pass reverse against Arizona State.

Whittingham is very good at getting defensive players to play above their capabilities. He's just the opposite with offensive players. I have no doubt that if another coach were coaching the same guys, they'd get much more production out of our offense. Our defense would probably take a hit, but our offense would improve.

We've been blaming the QB, OC, offensive line, and everyone else for years and years. It's time we start placing the blame where it belongs. Our offense sucks every year because we have a head coach that thinks the most important thing an offense can do is give the defense a rest.


That double pass reverse goes for 0 yards against Arizona...if we are lucky.

Whittingham has no problem with offense. He is not trying to sabotage points. He is not forcing the offense to be run in a certain way - if he had, that would be good. It would at least have given us a system.

We need time to develop a system and an identity. We lost a lot when Chow left, and we should have held on to BJ.

[OrangeUte]

I'm officially starting the Kyle to San Francisco rumor.

[Utah]

I'm officially starting the Kyle to San Francisco rumor.

Lol. Watch out for Tom Cella and Pig on a Bus to start tweeting their "sources" say Whitt to SF....lol. It looks like the whole Dan Mullen thing started from Cella reading UF.n

[LA Ute]

If ARod is the OC the offense he would like to run will look a lot like what Baylor runs.

Here's a summary of how that works:

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2013/11/7/5073520/baylor-football-offense-art-briles-2013

Look like the Baylor offense requires a lot of receiver speed.

[SeattleUte]

He really wanted the Utah job after Urban left, but Chris Hill didn't even give him a look.


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That's not how I remember it. Sanford was Hill's guy but he'd jumped the gun and signed with Vegas. Hill didn't want to break his rule against hiring LDS head coaches. But there was no choice because we'd have spoiled our best season ever losing the Fiesta Bowl and had not Hill hired Whit he'd have been at BYU.

[LA Ute]

that's not how i remember it. Sanford was hill's guy but he'd jumped the gun and signed with vegas. Hill didn't want to break his rule against hiring lds head coaches. But there was no choice because we'd have spoiled our best season ever losing the fiesta bowl and had not hill hired whit he'd have been at byu.

lol.

[mpfunk]

ARod, part II. Full circle. And it's gonna work just fine.

It will be ARod, not sure that anyone better than him would have any interest in the job.

No established coordinator is coming anywhere near Utah.

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[NorthwestUteFan]

It will be ARod, not sure that anyone better than him would have any interest in the job.

No established coordinator it's coming anywhere near Utah.

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That's OK. This will be Whitt's last year anyway.

[concerned]

That's not how I remember it. Sanford was Hill's guy but he'd jumped the gun and signed with Vegas. Hill didn't want to break his rule against hiring LDS head coaches. But there was no choice because we'd have spoiled our best season ever losing the Fiesta Bowl and had not Hill hired Whit he'd have been at BYU.

LA has it absolutely right. Sanford took the UNLV job when Hill told him he wouldnt be considered for the Utah job. Everybody knew Meyer and Mullen ran that offense, not Sanford.

[Mormon Red Death]

It will be ARod, not sure that anyone better than him would have any interest in the job.

No established coordinator is coming anywhere near Utah.

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How about Bob anae?
He's Polynesian
His offenses score points
He knows the recruiting and state.
He's coached in the pac12
He's friends with kyle

[mpfunk]

How about Bob anae?
He's Polynesian
His offenses score points
He knows the recruiting and state.
He's coached in the pac12
He's friends with kyle

Why would he leave a stable situation at byu and the possibility to replace BM for 1 season at Utah?

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[Mormon Red Death]

Why would he leave a stable situation at byu and the possibility to replace BM for 1 season at Utah?

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Utah would pay him more
Its in the pac12

[mpfunk]

Utah would pay him more
Its in the pac12

Both are true, but are those enough to be okay with the fact that you will be there one year before being fired, demoted, or forced out?

This is why we can't get an up and coming established coordinator from a G5 school.

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[UtahsMrSports]

You guys convinced me that there was nothing to see here and then spence checketts says that whitt has done all but make it official that hes leaving. Lol. This has become must see tv.

[OrangeUte]

You guys convinced me that there was nothing to see here and then spence checketts says that whitt has done all but make it official that hes leaving. Lol. This has become must see tv.

Do you have a link for this?

[UtahsMrSports]

Do you have a link for this?


His twitter, @1280spence

[OrangeUte]

His twitter, @1280spence

Thanks and UGH!!!!!!

[UtahsMrSports]

Thanks and UGH!!!!!!

No problem. Im really hoping things can be worked out. But i dont know.

[Old Standing ute]

You guys convinced me that there was nothing to see here and then spence checketts says that whitt has done all but make it official that hes leaving. Lol. This has become must see tv.

Thank God for Whitt making Spence Checketts leave.
LOL, can he do the same for Monson.

[Slim]

Thank God for Whitt making Spence Checketts leave.
LOL, can he do the same for Monson.

Everyone talking with "sources" are 1280 guys. Everyone else is quiet. They're either going to look like geniuses or morons when this is all over. My guess would be the latter.

[USS Utah]

You guys convinced me that there was nothing to see here and then spence checketts says that whitt has done all but make it official that hes leaving. Lol. This has become must see tv.

Hans, Gordo and Spence didn't get the memo, everyone else is backing off the "Whit is all but gone" meme.