2016 Presidential Election

[LA Ute]

There will never be another Supreme Court Justice Scalia. And the nation will be better for it.

I think you just proved my point. :evil:

[NorthwestUteFan]

I think you just proved my point. :evil:
No I didn't. That guy was a nightmare.

[LA Ute]

No I didn't. That guy was a nightmare.

Hey, buddy, watch your mouth! ;) I said:

For liberals, replacing Scalia with even a moderate (and I am not convinced that's what Garland is) is a huge win.

You said:

There will never be another Supreme Court Justice Scalia. And the nation will be better for it.

I own you.

[NorthwestUteFan]

That is pure applesauce.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Hypothetical time: assuming Trump loses, is there a chance we will see a similar demagogue arise in 2020? Or will the Republican Party make some changes in the process to avoid that?

Similarly, will the more rabid Trump supporters abandon the Republican Party?

[NorthwestUteFan]

Hypothetical#2:
Assuming DJT wins, what type of candidates would the Democrat Party nominate in 2020? Will we see another Wall Street-friendly, slightly warhawk-ish, somewhat left-of-center moderate candidate like HRC, or will another libersl populist candidate like Bernie find a way to get nominated?

[Applejack]

Hypothetical time: assuming Trump loses, is there a chance we will see a similar demagogue arise in 2020? Or will the Republican Party make some changes in the process to avoid that?

Similarly, will the more rabid Trump supporters abandon the Republican Party?
This is the scary part of this circus. Trump is going to lose and he might lose HUGE. But what stops a similar, slightly more restrained candidate from doing the same thing? I think we'll see more populism from the right and left. The democrats aren't exactly lighting the world on fire with Hillary. Get ready for more populists in 2020

[sancho]

This is the scary part of this circus. Trump is going to lose and he might lose HUGE. But what stops a similar, slightly more restrained candidate from doing the same thing? I think we'll see more populism from the right and left. The democrats aren't exactly lighting the world on fire with Hillary. Get ready for more populists in 2020

Are populists necessarily bad? Could a "more restrained" populist actually be a good thing?

[Applejack]

Are populists necessarily bad? Could a "more restrained" populist actually be a good thing?
No, they are not. I meant to say that trumps antics (no policy positions, just emotion; vindictive personality; making wildly imaginative claims about the economy, trade, the wall, etc) appealed to a not insignificant slice of the population.

[LA Ute]

I think I hold Trump in slightly greater disdain than I do Clinton. I really can't stand either of them, for different reasons. Trump's lack of decency and narcissism are appalling. Clinton's utter amorality and reflexive, relentless mendacity are repulsive. I am thinking of writing in Seattle Ute.

[LA Ute]

Hassan dodges on whether Clinton is honest, trustworthy

I don't blame her for squirming.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/maggie-hassan-clinton-trustworthy-227054#ixzz4HbGfYWJZ

[SeattleUte]

I think I hold Trump in slightly greater disdain than I do Clinton. I really can't stand either of them, for different reasons. Trump's lack of decency and narcissism are appalling. Clinton's utter amorality and reflexive, relentless mendacity are repulsive. I am thinking of writing in Seattle Ute.

I am wondering why I see everywhere these off-kilter rants about Hillary from conservative heterosexual males where she is no different than any other politician in terms of mendacity.

[LA Ute]

I am wondering why I see everywhere these off-kilter rants about Hillary from conservative heterosexual males where she is no different than any other politician in terms of mendacity.

Once again you've hit the target: Everything can be explained by gender and sexual orientation. Evidence is unnecessary.

[SeattleUte]

I chuckled Sunday reading the Times story about Trump's obsession with negative press coverage of him which was laced with inside sources--imagining his black obsession over this very article. Two days later he shakes up his campaign and the coverage is laced with inside sources. Haha.

[Two Utes]

Once again you've hit the target: Everything can be explained by gender and sexual orientation. Evidence is unnecessary.

Excellent retort La. But, I'm voting for Hillary to save the Republic.

[LA Ute]

Here's a Democratic senatorial candidate who is betraying her gender and sexual orientation by dodging questions about Clinton's trustworthiness:

http://bcove.me/v6rivowy

This is from a white straight male but still may contains come useful info:

Why Can’t Hillary Stop Fudging the Truth? (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/07/hillary-clinton-emails-history-214095)

[LA Ute]

Pretty interesting analysis of why Hillary's lying matters less to voters than Trump's does:


I’ve decided I cannot trust a great deal of what he says. I cannot state strongly enough how little I trust him to keep his political word, or to have any fidelity to the issues he seems to be promoting at the moment. If he did become president, he certainly might turn out to be trustworthy on some of them, but I cannot tell ahead of time which ones they might be or whether there even are any such issues.

I am assuming many many other people see something similar, and they don’t need the MSM to tell them about it. Trump himself gives them reason to feel that way and very little reason to feel otherwise, and he has no political history that would tell us otherwise, either.

Not to mention his many other character flaws: he defames people (and lies about them into the bargain), and he is impulsive, mercurial, and really does act at times as though he is somewhat unbalanced. He’s not crazy, but he has demonstrated many character traits—even during this campaign season itself—that frighten people and make them not trust him in terms of his basic character as a human being in addition to his character as a political candidate. You may think that shouldn’t matter, but it does matter, and it has always mattered.

Now, you can certainly counter with the idea that Hillary Clinton is a liar and extremely untrustworthy, too. And indeed, she is. And I’m not voting for her, but if I were a liberal in tune with her policy positions, I would actually consider her quite trustworthy in terms of her politics, on which she is consistently liberal/leftist. With Hillary, politically, what you see if what you get, and if you like what you see, you might vote for it despite her flaws. She also has a surface manner (as does Obama) that seems relatively steady and statesmanlike (albeit she is a bit older and more unsteady than before), certainly relative to Trump, and people care about that sort of thing.

None of this is just due to media manipulation. It’s due to exactly the same sort of thing that happens with a jury evaluating a witness on the stand, and it’s something known as “demeanor.”

Trump needed to convince many undecided people in the vast middle that he had a trustworthy character in the sense that he could make decisions based on more than impulsiveness and narcissism, and could be relied on to tell the truth at least most of the time. He hasn’t done it with enough of them so far, and I don’t see that changing (in part because people have seen otherwise from him for about a year already). The MSM was always going to be on the Trump attack as soon as he was the GOP nominee, and not only did he have to know that but everyone here probably knew it, too. And yet he has failed, and failed utterly, to act in a way to counter what the MSM was inevitably going to do.

http://neoneocon.com/2016/08/17/on-trump-its-the-character/

[NorthwestUteFan]

Here is an interesting op-Ed from a former Utah state Rep and former head of the RNC for Davis Country, describing why he is voting for Hillary and why that is the only real option this November.

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/4222913-155/op-ed-this-lifelong-republican-will-be


I've been an active Republican for all of my adult life. That this venerable political party, once home to visionary thinkers and leaders, could hand its presidential nomination to Trump, who seems not to know how much he doesn't know and could not care less, is unfathomable to me. It is unfortunate that so many of those who claim to be leaders of the congressional and presidential wings of the Republican Party have long since made their Faustian bargains and are actively endorsing a totally self-centered know-nothing who behaves like the caricature of a banana-republic dictator.




Trump is riding astride the Four Horsemen of Calumny he has resurrected from an earlier and equally dismal Republican playbook: Fear, Ignorance, Bigotry and Smear. Then-Sen. Margaret Chase Smith, R-Maine, coined the phrase on June 1, 1950, as the first in the Senate to oppose Sen. Joe McCarthy. Smith's "Declaration of Conscience" laid out four fundamental American values that McCarthyism and now Trumpism seek to trample: (1) the right to criticize, (2) the right to hold unpopular beliefs, (3) the right to protest and (4) the right of independent thought.


Ouch.

[Ma'ake]

"ow, you can certainly counter with the idea that Hillary Clinton is a liar and extremely untrustworthy, too. And indeed, she is. And I’m not voting for her, but if I were a liberal in tune with her policy positions, I would actually consider her quite trustworthy in terms of her politics, on which she is consistently liberal/leftist. With Hillary, politically, what you see if what you get, and if you like what you see, you might vote for it despite her flaws. She also has a surface manner (as does Obama) that seems relatively steady and statesmanlike (albeit she is a bit older and more unsteady than before), certainly relative to Trump, and people care about that sort of thing.

This is what this campaign should have been about: "even though my candidate has flaws, I can accept those, because we mostly agree on worldview, policy, etc".

This is what the 2012 election was about. Romney was coherent, smart, rational... going against someone who was essentially the same, with differences on degree, how fast to push change, etc.

Sanders, Brexit and Trumpism have blown the top off the normal political game, revealing a much bigger chessboard that includes deep seated anxieties that haven't been adequately addressed by not just the two main US parties, but (in the case of Brexit) by the political class, at all.

The "left behinds" are angry, and they're threatening to vote.

We're currently distracted by Trump and his vast portfolio of buffoonery and staggering amounts of ignorance, but the Sanders and Trumpism "movements" haven't disappeared. Assuming Clinton wins, both parties will have 4 years to try and figure out this new world. Both Capitalism and democracy are on trial.

[Rocker Ute]

Telling the truth is only part of being trustworthy. So while it can be contended that they are both liars (and that all politicians are liars) what else can we trust him with.

I can trust Clinton to handle nuclear codes appropriately. I can trust her to be diplomatic when necessary. I can trust her to be respectful. I can trust what her various policies will be (even if I don't agree with lots of them). I can also trust her to hold my wallet for me while I leave the room.

I can't say I trust The Donald to do any of those things. The only reason my wallet might be safe with him would be the cash contained might be too small to be of interest to him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

Telling the truth is only part of being trustworthy. So while it can be contended that they are both liars (and that all politicians are liars) what else can we trust him with.

I can trust Clinton to handle nuclear codes appropriately. I can trust her to be diplomatic when necessary. I can trust her to be respectful. I can trust what her various policies will be (even if I don't agree with lots of them). I can also trust her to hold my wallet for me while I leave the room.

I can't say I trust The Donald to do any of those things. The only reason my wallet might be safe with him would be the cash contained might be too small to be of interest to him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Trump's biggest problem is now what you've stayed: he scares people. His self-indulgent temperament is horrible. This is a matter of character. Temperament is a matter of personal choice.

[Brian]

I spent most of July in the UK, and after we finished talking about Brexit, they wanted to talk about Trump.
There is not a great sense of the general dislike for Hilary, they see her as an experienced politician and qualified to run. Many of them were surprised that she's not real popular in her own party.
But again and again, the sentiment I got was 'how on earth the system could allow such an unqualified loose cannon to become a candidate'. They see him as a complete clown.

Not sure how a handful of professors maps to the feelings of the rest of the UK, or to Europe and the rest of the world, but it was an interesting data point.

[Two Utes]

I spent most of July in the UK, and after we finished talking about Brexit, they wanted to talk about Trump.
There is not a great sense of the general dislike for Hilary, they see her as an experienced politician and qualified to run. Many of them were surprised that she's not real popular in her own party.
But again and again, the sentiment I got was 'how on earth the system could allow such an unqualified loose cannon to become a candidate'. They see him as a complete clown.

Not sure how a handful of professors maps to the feelings of the rest of the UK, or to Europe and the rest of the world, but it was an interesting data point.

When I was there in the 80s, they thought Reagan was a clown and Carter was a great President. Unemployment was running at 30% in some of the northern cities and the Labour Party was basically the Socialist party back then. Reagan and Thatcher won out. And the standard of living in Britain is better and unemployment is much lower.

The English talk like they know everything but they really don't know much--much like Bernie supporters.. They enjoy ridiculing America, but they love American culture.

Look at the clown they have who is Mayor of their biggest city.

[Rocker Ute]

I spent most of July in the UK, and after we finished talking about Brexit, they wanted to talk about Trump.
There is not a great sense of the general dislike for Hilary, they see her as an experienced politician and qualified to run. Many of them were surprised that she's not real popular in her own party.
But again and again, the sentiment I got was 'how on earth the system could allow such an unqualified loose cannon to become a candidate'. They see him as a complete clown.

Not sure how a handful of professors maps to the feelings of the rest of the UK, or to Europe and the rest of the world, but it was an interesting data point.

I work with people in South Africa and Brazil, and they are all afraid of Trump and amazed he has had the success he does. Of course, like two utes notes above about London, these countries also don't have a great track record for elected officials.

[Applejack]

I work with people in South Africa and Brazil, and they are all afraid of Trump and amazed he has had the success he does. Of course, like two utes notes above about London, these countries also don't have a great track record for elected officials.
I'm American and I cannot believe the success trump has enjoyed this year.

[Rocker Ute]

I'm American and I cannot believe the success trump has enjoyed this year.

Side note, but every time you post I want to change my board name to one of the three:

Bob Maplethorpe
Future Man
Mr Henry

[LA Ute]

I'm American and I cannot believe the success trump has enjoyed this year.

It's the most depressing phenomenon I've ever seen in American politics. And I am old!

[Brian]

I think the best outcome at this point is for Trump to keep on Trumping and get a Reagan-Mondale type landslide (or worse!) in November.

Burn the party to the ground and start over.

[LA Ute]

I think the best outcome at this point is for Trump to keep on Trumping and get a Reagan-Mondale type landslide (or worse!) in November.

Burn the party to the ground and start over.

The alt-right and the Trumpkins need to be sent packing. The rest of the GOP can do just fine without them.

[NorthwestUteFan]

We have a friend from Belgium starting with us this week. She is largely indifferent to Hillary Clinton as a candidate, and believed that HRC would be a capable leader who will maintain the the current trade and international policy relations with Europe. In a sense, HRC won't interfere with her day-to-day life.

Donald Trump, on the other hand, is terrifying to her. She sees him as an utter buffoon who doesn't seem smart enough to understand the repercussions of his statements. His recent rant about NATO had her very nervous, because security and safety in Europe depends heavily on the detente provided by NATO. DJT reminds her of the xenophobic, right-wing, Nationalist, demagogue and EU Parliament member Marine Le Pen (and her father, Jean-Marie Le Pen), especially in the anti-Muslim rhetoric and the ties to Russia/Putin. He is also similar to the ultra conservative president of Poland, and seeing that type of rhetoric coming from a person who has a real chance to become the president of the USA is terrifying to Europeans. They have a very real and relatively recent set of experiences with this type of leader and it rarely ends well.

[Moose]

The alt-right and the Trumpkins need to be sent packing. The rest of the GOP can do just fine without them.

Are you sure about that LA Ute? Where did these Trumpkins come from? Seems to me they are primarily white people without college degrees. Have they not been a big part of the Republican base for many years? Mitt Romney's biggest mistake was assuming that the alleged 47% (it's much lower than that) of the population who live off the government all vote for Democrats. They actually make up a big chunk of the Republican Party and they're why Trump is the Republican Party nominee.


Republicans need to chase after educated people. Problem is most Republicans don't realize that "educated people" actually does include a lot of people with brown skin, so they should also ease up on the anti-immigration rhetoric which Romney got sucked into and cost him the election.

In my opinion, the GOP will continue to nominate buffoons like Trump until it embraces science and becomes progressive with social issues. In other words, the GOP needs to chase moderate democratic voters who are conservative in fiscal matters but have been voting for Democrats due to social issues. Mitt Romney seemed to chase votes from the far right rather than battling to win over moderate democrats.

[SeattleUte]

Are you sure about that LA Ute? Where did these Trumpkins come from? Seems to me they are primarily white people without college degrees. Have they not been a big part of the Republican base for many years? Mitt Romney's biggest mistake was assuming that the alleged 47% (it's much lower than that) of the population who live off the government all vote for Democrats. They actually make up a big chunk of the Republican Party and they're why Trump is the Republican Party nominee.


Republicans need to chase after educated people. Problem is most Republicans don't realize that "educated people" actually does include a lot of people with brown skin, so they should also ease up on the anti-immigration rhetoric which Romney got sucked into and cost him the election.

In my opinion, the GOP will continue to nominate buffoons like Trump until it embraces science and becomes progressive with social issues. In other words, the GOP needs to chase moderate democratic voters who are conservative in fiscal matters but have been voting for Democrats due to social issues. Mitt Romney seemed to chase votes from the far right rather than battling to win over moderate democrats.

The GOP needs to accept responsibility for this debacle instead of blaming everyone else. Accepting responsibility is always therapeutic and the first step to reconstruction. I see LA Ute as a bellwether of GOP actions and thinking, so I'm not optimistic. As a small government advocate in just about every respect, I lament the loss of a counterweight to the liberal populism that's emerged even among the Republicans. The first thing the Republicans need to do is get the Christian right, which fortunately is diminishing at an amazing rate, at arm's length. Republicans have let their base shrink until now you can't only tailor your message to white males and elect a president.

[Brian]

The alt-right and the Trumpkins need to be sent packing. The rest of the GOP can do just fine without them.

I think the fundamental problem with the GOP is that they are leaderless, and idea-less.
Other than they are anti anything that President Obama says/does/tries, I have no idea what the GOP is trying to do.
I think step 1 is that they need an agenda, a pro-something agenda.

I will admit that I'm not a real ardent follower of politics, so this is just the observations of a casually observing buffoon.

[LA Ute]

The GOP needs to accept responsibility for this debacle instead of blaming everyone else. Accepting responsibility is always therapeutic and the first step to reconstruction. I see LA Ute as a bellwether of GOP actions and thinking, so I'm not optimistic. As a small government advocate in just about every respect, I lament the loss of a counterweight to the liberal populism that's emerged even among the Republicans. The first thing the Republicans need to do is get the Christian right, which fortunately is diminishing at an amazing rate, at arm's length. Republicans have let their base shrink until now you can't only tailor your message to white males and elect a president.

Wow, your posts on this subject are getting tiresome. Let's not retread old ground. The discussion has already taken place on my Facebook wall:

*****

Seattle Ute:

[LA], I identified the problem at the beginning. The Republicans have imploded because their base is the width of a stilleto. Is [Clinton] vulnerable? Yes; in an alternate universe where the Republicans are not the party of Donald Trump. A Republican candidate who would command a broaderb base of support could beat her. But over time the Republican party has become the party of Donald Trump, and so it ceded this election to the Democrats. As Stuart shows, what choice do we have. Your attacks on her are poitnless, as there really is no other choice.

Stuart Schultzke:

John, that Party is not as far off as you think. If Jeb Bush hadn't dedicated $50M to attacking Rubio, if a senior GOP governor hadn't gone off his rocker attacking Rubio, THIS is what HRC is facing right now, and she's easily down 10-12 points - a Cuban nominee, backed by an Indian American Governor, an African American Senator and probably a Hispanic running mate (Susanna Martinez). The GOP was on a knife's edge between these forces, and the wrong side won, but it wasn't inevitable.

Seattle Ute:

I hope you're right. In four years we may be amazed at how the Rupublicans found their new center. It took the Democrats a lot longer to do that after 1968.

Stuart, it's an interesting theory that the legitimate Republican candidates just self-destructed through civil war while Trump was underestimated and uscathed. Remember all those primaries where he was winning a plurality in the 20%s.

Stuart Schultzke

I think at this point John, it's more than theory - Ted Cruz actively accommodated Trump into late 2015, calling him "terrific" and "someone who tells the truth" - that's partly because Cruz is an opportunistic bastard, partly because none of them, including Trump, thought he'd be around long.

But there is little doubt - Kasich never laid a glove on Trump. Jeb!'s Super PAC spent its entire budget attacking Rubio. At the very moment of Rubio's ascendance Christie designed an attack trap that caught him. ALL the while, and until it was basically too late, Trump was almost untouched...except by Rubio. But the senior party figures - Jeb, Christie, Kasich - ALL held their fire. Cynically thinking they'd have a shot at his voters once he inevitably bowed out.

It became a perfect storm - the media gifted Trump $2B in largely uncritical free exposure, the candidates didn't go after him, and millions of crossover Dems and Independents showed for open primaries.

Seattle Ute:

Stuart, you should write an article.

*****

I agree with Stuart, and you also seem to agree with him. Let's talk about something other than your demands that I blame the GOP generally for Trump.

[SeattleUte]

Wow, your posts on this subject are getting tiresome. Let's not retread old ground. The discussion has already taken place on my Facebook wall:

*****

Seattle Ute:

[LA], I identified the problem at the beginning. The Republicans have imploded because their base is the width of a stilleto. Is [Clinton] vulnerable? Yes; in an alternate universe where the Republicans are not the party of Donald Trump. A Republican candidate who would command a broaderb base of support could beat her. But over time the Republican party has become the party of Donald Trump, and so it ceded this election to the Democrats. As Stuart shows, what choice do we have. Your attacks on her are poitnless, as there really is no other choice.

Stuart Schultzke:

John, that Party is not as far off as you think. If Jeb Bush hadn't dedicated $50M to attacking Rubio, if a senior GOP governor hadn't gone off his rocker attacking Rubio, THIS is what HRC is facing right now, and she's easily down 10-12 points - a Cuban nominee, backed by an Indian American Governor, an African American Senator and probably a Hispanic running mate (Susanna Martinez). The GOP was on a knife's edge between these forces, and the wrong side won, but it wasn't inevitable.

Seattle Ute:

I hope you're right. In four years we may be amazed at how the Rupublicans found their new center. It took the Democrats a lot longer to do that after 1968.

Stuart, it's an interesting theory that the legitimate Republican candidates just self-destructed through civil war while Trump was underestimated and uscathed. Remember all those primaries where he was winning a plurality in the 20%s.

Stuart Schultzke

I think at this point John, it's more than theory - Ted Cruz actively accommodated Trump into late 2015, calling him "terrific" and "someone who tells the truth" - that's partly because Cruz is an opportunistic bastard, partly because none of them, including Trump, thought he'd be around long.

But there is little doubt - Kasich never laid a glove on Trump. Jeb!'s Super PAC spent its entire budget attacking Rubio. At the very moment of Rubio's ascendance Christie designed an attack trap that caught him. ALL the while, and until it was basically too late, Trump was almost untouched...except by Rubio. But the senior party figures - Jeb, Christie, Kasich - ALL held their fire. Cynically thinking they'd have a shot at his voters once he inevitably bowed out.

It became a perfect storm - the media gifted Trump $2B in largely uncritical free exposure, the candidates didn't go after him, and millions of crossover Dems and Independents showed for open primaries.

Seattle Ute:

Stuart, you should write an article.

*****

I agree with Stuart, and you also seem to agree with him. Let's talk about something other than your demands that I blame the GOP generally for Trump.

I hope he's right is a better description of where I am. I think he has an interesting theory. Have you seen his article?

[LA Ute]

I hope he's right is a better description of where I am. I think he has an interesting theory. Have you seen his article?

Didn't know he had written one. He and I see the GOP the same way. I'm a Jack Kemp "bleeding heart Republican" and Marco Rubio was my guy. Kasich would be a good president but turned out to be a poor candidate.

[LA Ute]

Trump is at the wheel, his new campaign manager from Breitbart (a guy who's never run a political campaign at any level) riding shotgun.

1895

[concerned]

I have read 3 or 4 reports saying that Trump is hiring Bannon and Ailes with an eye toward launching his post-election media network. That is why he is going back to being Trump and focusing on his base rather than enlarging his appeal--his base will be his audience.


Can the new team follow Karl Rove's advice, and is it too late anyway?


http://www.rove.com/article/shuffling-deck-chairs-on-the-uss-trump?

[SeattleUte]

I have read 3 or 4 reports saying that Trump is hiring Bannon and Ailes with an eye toward launching his post-election media network. That is why he is going back to being Trump and focusing on his base rather than enlarging his appeal--his base will be his audience.


Personally, I'd rather be a cult hero than president.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Ox man makes great points. Trumpenstein is not explicitly the fault of the Republican Party. The Party itself had plausible deniability. And it appears Reince Preibus is poised shift Party funds away from the presidential race and toward down ballot races.

The deeper problem is this: Trumplestiltskin picked up more Primary votes any candidate for any party in history. And he did that while facing up to 17 other candidates on the ballot. There is a large number of people who seem drawn to the kind of rhetoric spoken by Trump. This will be a factor in the upcoming elections because this group represents a large voting bloc underpinning the political power of the Republican party.

The party needs to find a way to soothe and moderate this group, or risk losing them forever along with any chance of remaining one of the major parties.

[LA Ute]

I have read 3 or 4 reports saying that Trump is hiring Bannon and Ailes with an eye toward launching his post-election media network. That is why he is going back to being Trump and focusing on his base rather than enlarging his appeal--his base will be his audience.

I don't expect him to follow anyone's advice. Maybe if he drops out now that will help his post-candidacy career. Pence can take it from here and at least run a competent issues-based campaign. Maybe some old GOP warhorse could take Pence's VP slot.

I know, I know, in my dreams....

[sancho]

I think the best outcome at this point is for Trump to keep on Trumping and get a Reagan-Mondale type landslide (or worse!) in November.


I think a record low turnout might be a better outcome. It's always a little scary when one party controls all three branches. I don't have any specific fears related to Hillary, but I don't want her to think she has some kind of mandate to do anything. I guess she's running on the status quo, so maybe she'd have a mandate to do nothing. I could live with that.

[LA Ute]

“What is it about being involved in the Trump campaign that makes his surrogates say the exact opposite of what needs to be said to convince skeptical, undecided voters that their candidate is rational, competent, ready to take the 2 a.m. call — and at this point, even reasonably sane?”

'Apprentice' Star Omarosa Warns: 'Every Critic Will Have to Bow Down to Trump' (https://pjmedia.com/trending/2016/08/18/apprentice-star-omarosa-warns-every-critic-will-have-to-bow-down-to-trump/)

[NorthwestUteFan]

I think a record low turnout might be a better outcome. It's always a little scary when one party controls all three branches. I don't have any specific fears related to Hillary, but I don't want her to think she has some kind of mandate to do anything. I guess she's running on the status quo, so maybe she'd have a mandate to do nothing. I could live with that.

Record low turnout = President TheDonald J. Trump. There is no possible works where that would be the ideal outcome.

[Ma'ake]

I have read 3 or 4 reports saying that Trump is hiring Bannon and Ailes with an eye toward launching his post-election media network. That is why he is going back to being Trump and focusing on his base rather than enlarging his appeal--his base will be his audience.


This makes sense, and would be appealing to Donald, if you think about it. Trump is angry and dismayed that his style in the primaries is not having the same effect now.

AND, he's tiring of smart people telling him he needs to learn about things like "foreign policy", and why we can't play nuclear weapons as a card in negotiations, etc.

He's hit the wall.

Roger Ailes got canned by Fox and is probably angry about. Bannon has big dollar signs in his eyes in monetizing the Trumpite movement.

FINALLY, somebody that speaks Donald's language! ! ! He'll come out of this thing richer than he's ever been!

Forget Trump Steaks, we're talking about Trump TV!

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160820/5e2773c8680eb4e4f98c4934fa0c04a2.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[USS Utah]

A week ago I was convinced that Trump is either the dumbest candidate to run for president or that he was deliberately sabotaging the election to hurt the GOP and help Hillary. While he has been saying outrageous stuff for over a year now, he seemed to go into overdrive after his nomination was formalized the the GOP convention. So this week he tried to do some damage control, but I am still doubting of his intentions.

[LA Ute]

Now the Clintons Tell Us

The family foundation has done its job. Now they can pretend to honor ethical limits

http://www.wsj.com/articles/now-the-clintons-tell-us-1471645730

[LA Ute]

Meanwhile, a prominent Republican pundit is trying to tell the Trumpkins the truth about how badly their guy is doing:

Dana Perino: Let me drop a truth bomb on you about these polls

http://hotair.com/archives/2016/08/19/dana-perino-let-me-drop-a-truth-bomb-on-you-about-these-polls/

[Rocker Ute]

Useful to see: http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/

Pretty bleak forecast for Trump. At this point, that margin of chance to win for Clinton is basically only that low to allow for the chance of some sort of cataclysmic event in her campaign.

It is going to be an epic, embarrassing landslide. The republicans are being wise to pull back support and focus on down ballot elections.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[U-Ute]

This makes sense, and would be appealing to Donald, if you think about it. Trump is angry and dismayed that his style in the primaries is not having the same effect now.

AND, he's tiring of smart people telling him he needs to learn about things like "foreign policy", and why we can't play nuclear weapons as a card in negotiations, etc.

He's hit the wall.

Roger Ailes got canned by Fox and is probably angry about. Bannon has big dollar signs in his eyes in monetizing the Trumpite movement.

FINALLY, somebody that speaks Donald's language! ! ! He'll come out of this thing richer than he's ever been!

Forget Trump Steaks, we're talking about Trump TV!

I read one article claiming that Trump has basically thrown in the towel and this is a way for him to start launching a new channel once he loses.

He is not a businessman as much as an entertainer.

[LA Ute]

He is not a businessman as much as an entertainer.

He's primarily a jackass.

[U-Ute]

This is an interesting angle.

What if Trump doesn't admit defeat and claims that the election was rigged after the election?

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/donald-trump-concede-succession-227252



“There’s a sizable portion of his fan base that will believe these things, and it’s toxic to our democracy,” he continued. “You’re basically taking ideas and voices that have been on the fringes — justifiably — and Donald Trump is bringing them squarely into the mainstream and weaponizing them. This is something we’ve not had to confront before. At one time there were responsible voices that would have drawn some lines that would have kept these voices from dominating our discourse; and they don’t exist now."

[LA Ute]

This is an interesting angle.

What if Trump doesn't admit defeat and claims that the election was rigged after the election?

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/donald-trump-concede-succession-227252

I hope he doesn't do that. Between 2000 and 2004 -- and beyond -- we saw how divisive it is when a big chunk of the electorate thinks a presidential election's outcome is questionable.

[concerned]

I hope he doesn't do that. Between 2000 and 2004 -- and beyond -- we saw how divisive it is when a big chunk of the electorate thinks a presidential election's outcome is questionable.

Remember Al Gore throwing in the towel and telling the country to rally around GWB? if Trump does not do that (and I will bet he doesn't) it will not only delegitimize HRC, but it will make it harder for the Repubs to move past him and reassert control of the party.

[LA Ute]

Remember Al Gore throwing in the towel and telling the country to rally around GWB? if Trump does not do that (and I will bet he doesn't) it will not only delegitimize HRC, but it will make it harder for the Repubs to move past him and reassert control of the party.

If it's a Clinton landslide (as seems likely) there won't be any need for Trump to throw in the towel. He'll be lying flat on his back on the canvas.

[NorthwestUteFan]

At this point it seems the rumor that he wants to transform some of his support into viewers for his new network seems to have merit.

Roger Ailes (FoxNews), the guy from Breitbart, and Sean Hannity are all associated his campaign somehow. That is a lot of Conservative Media experience right there. I see well over 50 years experience in that trio alone.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Finally we have a presidential candidate we can believe in!
http://www.ash4president.com/img/posters/download/make-america-groovy-again.jpg


Ash 4 President!

ash4president.com

[NorthwestUteFan]

He will be the greatest president ever.

CE8d68o175M

[LA Ute]

6 Chilling Facts About the Alt-Right

https://pjmedia.com/trending/2016/08/26/6-chilling-facts-about-the-alt-right/?singlepage=true


During her speech in Nevada on Wednesday, Hillary Clinton did more to defend conservatism and the Republican Party than have many Republicans during this election cycle. Delivering remarks which some expected to broadly smear conservatives with the taint of a racist few, Clinton showed restraint. Describing the racialist alt-right, which has embedded itself within the Donald Trump campaign, Clinton was surgical....

What About the Alt-Left?

http://www.nysun.com/editorials/what-about-the-alt-left/89699/

[Ma'ake]

6 Chilling Facts About the Alt-Right

https://pjmedia.com/trending/2016/08/26/6-chilling-facts-about-the-alt-right/?singlepage=true

What About the Alt-Left?

http://www.nysun.com/editorials/what-about-the-alt-left/89699/

Sister Souljah? The response on the left to alt-right is asymmetric.

There are plenty of good, moral, reasonable people on the right who are fundamentally non-racist, inclusive, seeking to extend conservative principles to others: Mitt Romney (he did warn everyone, very early), the Bushs, Bill Kristol, LA Ute, David Brooks, etc.

But in the same way Obama allowed racists to come out of the closet and mingle with others opposed to him - for political or ideological reasons - Trump has taken it a step further.

"Look! There's my African American!"

Recently, Trump appeals to blacks and Latinos, though there are almost none of them at his rallies. He's not really appealing to *them*, he's trying to make it safe for his supporters to admit they support him.

If we ever had a true "race war" in America, through the political parties, the Republicans would be pretty homogeneous, and very well armed. The Democrats would be a blend, including a lot of liberal whites fighting for brown people. This is a grotesquely simplified and unrealistic scenario, of course, but may we all live to never see that kind of carnage.

Try as they might, hopefully the Trump-Breitbart-Putin ticket fails and we resume a less explosive political reality, such as 4 years of hammering on Hillary, who will look like she's 90 years old, and would be a real hindrance to a Democratic party, in 2020.

[LA Ute]

The Alt-Right and BLM are One and the Same

A provocative view that I don't endorse. Still, the writer, a prominent libertarian pundit, makes some interesting points.

https://pjmedia.com/andrewklavan/2016/08/28/altright-and-blm-are-one-and-the-same/2/

[concerned]

Well, Donald Trump and I agree on something


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1700796190/Picture_24_bigger.pngTIME.comVerified account‏@TIME (https://twitter.com/TIME)

Donald Trump says Huma Abedin is ‘far better off’ without Anthony Weiner



That guy has some serious, serious psychological issues. (Okay, who am I referring to there?)

[LA Ute]

From the Daily Mail, FWIW:

Now 30 BENGHAZI-related emails have been recovered from Hillary's server – and they weren't in the batch she turned over to the State Department

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3765453/FBI-soon-release-documents-related-Clinton-email-probe.html#ixzz4Ir41UKb5

This constant drip-drip-drip has got to be keeping Robbie Mook, her campaign manager, awake at night.

On the bright side for Clinton, I heard this morning that the POTUS candidate with the highest net positive approval numbers always wins. So her approval numbers, while atrocious at a historic level, are still not as atrocious as Trump's. So by that measure she's headed for victory. But, but...this election doesn't seem to follow the rules. <Shakes head.>

[LA Ute]

This is fun to watch, even if you disagree with Milo like I mostly do.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lgl53EXInPc

[LuckyUte]

Interesting video. Here is an article I read recently, written by Jon Favreau. Yeah, he does go overboard on rhetoric, but he does make some interesting points, I think.

https://theringer.com/how-the-far-right-media-controls-donald-trump-3d077ca46a21#.qhdpvm83g
And what did Trump learn from the popular discussions on Fox, Drudge, Breitbart, Infowars, and talk radio? These outlets have long been labeled the “conservative media,” but they don’t spend much time discussing tax cuts, free trade, entitlement reform, or school choice. They’re not weighing market-based solutions to urban poverty or debating the future of neoconservative foreign policy. These outlets are a far cry from The Weekly Standard, the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal, or even some conservative Fox reporters like Megyn Kelly. They have a lot more in common with the National Enquirer than they do with the National Review....

The reason Trump succeeded isn’t that complicated after all. He didn’t win the nomination by tapping into some nascent political movement. He won by doing a fairly good impression of a right-wing media celebrity. Every issue, every conspiracy, every applause line has been ripped from their websites, radio shows, and television programs. It’s why he became America’s most prominent birther. It’s why he floated rumors that Ted Cruz’s dad killed JFK, and that Hillary Clinton killed Vince Foster. It’s why he talks the way he does about Mexicans and Muslims and women and African Americans. It’s why he’s been able to get away with knowing little to nothing about policy or government or world affairs — because Trump, like any good talking head, only speaks in chyrons and clauses and some-people-are-sayings....


The real divide within the Republican Party is not based on issues or ideology. It’s not between the right and the far-right, or even the establishment and the outsiders. It’s between the politicians and the entertainers, and ever since John McCain put Sarah Palin in front of the cameras, the contest hasn’t been close. You can fault politicians like McCain for giving the entertainers a platform, appearing on their shows, bowing to their demands, or just cowering in silence. But one silver lining of this dismal campaign has been the number of prominent conservative voices — politicians, strategists, intellectuals, and even a talk radio host — who are fighting to break free of the hateful, dangerous echo chamber the entertainers have created.

[LA Ute]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160913/179d4c6307b8413d3c8af2beee2b4bdc.jpg

[U-Ute]

Overlooked is the fact that Clinton has been campaigning while suffering from pneumonia.

I've known a couple of people who have had when they were younger and it knocked them on their asses. She's a tough bird.

[concerned]

Overlooked is the fact that Clinton has been campaigning while suffering from pneumonia.

I've known a couple of people who have had when they were younger and it knocked them on their asses. She's a tough bird.


I had walking pneumonia a couple of years ago, and that is what it did to me, for about a week.

[LA Ute]

I don't see any reason to doubt the pneumonia diagnosis but why, oh why, do so many things involving her have to be kept under wraps and spun like crazy -- often in ways that make it look like she's hiding something? That doesn't help her or the voters, IMO. It just feeds the conspiracy crazies and also makes rational people wonder what is being kept from them. A smart, non-crazy conservative writer (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/439964/hillary-clinton-health-crisis-pneumonia-deception-fits-pattern) summarizes what we do know:


First, we know that Clinton informed the FBI that her 2012 concussion and blood clot had a material impact not only on her work schedule as secretary of state but also on her memory. The FBI file released after the close of the investigation into Clinton’s handling of classified information indicates that “she could only work at State for a few hours a day and could not recall every briefing she received.”

Second, just as the FBI files raised new questions about the extent of Hillary’s injuries in 2012, she suffered yet another, very public coughing fit on the campaign trail — one that Democrats immediately ascribed to “allergies.”

Third, following the coughing fit, we now know that Hillary’s doctor examined her and determined that she was suffering pneumonia. But the campaign did not inform the public that Clinton was ill.

Fourth, Hillary fell ill at a September 11 memorial service Sunday morning, left early, and appeared to stumble so badly that she had to be carried and pushed into a Secret Service van.

Fifth, despite the fact that Hillary’s team knew she was sick and knew she was suffering from pneumonia, they not only kept the press — and, therefore, the American people — in the dark when she fell ill, they set up a photo op after her collapse where she claimed that she was “feeling great.” And yet now, despite allegedly “feeling great,” she’s canceling campaign events.

[LA Ute]

Les DéplorablesHillary Clinton names the five phobias of Donald Trump’s political supporters.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/les-deplorables-1473895470

[NorthwestUteFan]

I think I would be paranoid too if I had Fox News digging through my garbage for 25 years.

[LA Ute]

The electorate is in a bad place.

Pessimistic or Optimistic? Election-Wise, It Matters (POLL) (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pessimistic-optimistic-election-wise-matters-poll/story?id=42092776)

Two-thirds of Americans feel they have little or no influence over the actions of the federal government. Forty-five percent say the country’s greatness is ebbing. As many see voter fraud (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/elections/voter-fraud.htm) as commonplace. A third aren’t confident that votes in the presidential election (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/elections/presidential-election.htm) will be counted fairly. And a third say people like them are treated unfairly in this country.The results of this poll, produced for ABC by Langer Research Associates (http://www.langerresearch.com/), mark the extent to which underlying views of the state of the nation interact with political preferences. In some ways, a pessimists vs. optimists election.

[LuckyUte]

The electorate is in a bad place.

Pessimistic or Optimistic? Election-Wise, It Matters (POLL) (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pessimistic-optimistic-election-wise-matters-poll/story?id=42092776)


[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

See my post above. When so many of the conservative media pounds away at the same messages and talking points it is no wonder that many begin to believe in these many conspiracies. These poll results simply show the result of all that mongering by a very vocal part of the media.

[U-Ute]

The electorate is in a bad place.


As many see voter fraud (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/elections/voter-fraud.htm) as commonplace.

The irony is that the fearmongering by the GOP on this issue is what is making people worry about this. There is little to no evidence of voter fraud.

The truth is, if you want to rig an election, you hack the computers.

[LA Ute]

The irony is that the fearmongering by the GOP on this issue is what is making people worry about this. There is little to no evidence of voter fraud.


We'll likely not agree, Lucky, but I don't think it's that simple.

[U-Ute]

Two versions of the same newspaper, in two different regions.

1933

[UtahsMrSports]

Two versions of the same newspaper, in two different regions.

1933

Not distributed in two regions, its the morning versus afternoon/evening printing. One on left is just after his meeting with the President of Mexico, the one on the right is after he got back home and ran his mouth about making them pay for it.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

Obama was born in America!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

Former DC Bureau Chief: Clinton Surrogate Pitched Me ‘Birther’ Story In 2008And not just any Clinton surrogate:

http://dailycaller.com/2016/09/16/washington-bureau-chief-clinton-surrogate-pitched-me-birther-story-in-2008/?utm_campaign=atdailycaller&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

[NorthwestUteFan]

Obama was born in America!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And it was Hillary's fault! TheDonald put an end to the Birther movement! And while you are here take a look at my fabulous new hotel!

Of course he pushed that button as hard as possible for over 5 years, and only now is backing away from it.

[LA Ute]

As I have said many times, I cannot stand Trump. But it is rich indeed to see Clinton taking him to task for raising or talking about the birther concept. It was her creation.

[NorthwestUteFan]

As I have said many times, I cannot stand Trump. But it is rich indeed to see Clinton taking him to task for raising or talking about the birther concept. It was her creation.
Yes, for about 30 seconds 8+ years ago.


And it was even better to watch Michelle Obama blast him about it today.

[LA Ute]

Yes, for about 30 seconds 8+ years ago.


And it was even better to watch Michelle Obama blast him about it today.

Might have been 60 seconds. 🤓

[NorthwestUteFan]

Might have been 60 seconds. 🤓
Right. But the point is she didn't push it hard, and in the face of contrary evidence, for five years.

This betrays a fundamental indecisiveness and inability to look at a bigger picture. But it also shows his attraction to low-hanging shiny objects and a desire to win the argument, rather than actually bring correct.

Everybody should be terrified of a leader like that.

[LA Ute]

Right. But the point is she didn't push it hard, and in the face of contrary evidence, for five years.

This betrays a fundamental indecisiveness and inability to look at a bigger picture. But it also shows his attraction to low-hanging shiny objects and a desire to win the argument, rather than actually bring correct.

Everybody should be terrified of a leader like that.

Well, you'll never get me to defend Trump. I don't to do that. He is indefensible in so many ways. But that doesn't mean I am going to be blind to Clinton's multiple character disabilities. Having said that, I have lots and lots of friends who are Clinton supporters. Most of them have not drunk the Kool-Aid, but a few have. I get it. It is possible for two intelligent people to see the same situation very differently. 'Merica!

[U-Ute]

I finally saw my first Trump bumper sticker. It should be no surprise that it was in Alpine.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Oh my!! Mr. Sulu with the mic drop:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160918/103fc44bf1b958a4a56a58ded75d51f3.jpg

George Takei is an American treasure.

[UtahsMrSports]

Oh my!! Mr. Sulu with the mic drop:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160918/103fc44bf1b958a4a56a58ded75d51f3.jpg

George Takei is an American treasure.

Only a matter of time before trump gives him an adjective nickname, blasts his work on Twitter and calls him a loser.

[LA Ute]

This made me laugh.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160918/ec414b618dd81cfff45ba0aab22f7c63.jpg

[NorthwestUteFan]

Only a matter of time before trump gives him an adjective nickname, blasts his work on Twitter and calls him a loser.
"Something something 'I prefer Japs who didn't spend their childhood behind bars...' something 'Loser' something."

[UtahsMrSports]

"Something something 'I prefer Japs who didn't spend their childhood behind bars...' something 'Loser' something."

Overrated and very boring George Takei almost single handedly caused star trek to be thrown off the air with bad ratings. Sad!

[NorthwestUteFan]

Overrated and very boring George Takei almost single handedly caused star trek to be thrown off the air with bad ratings. Sad!
George Takei is almost universally loved in America. I would love to watch Trump attempt to play his silly mind games on George.

GT's essay last year describing his time in the Relocation Camps as a young child was powerful and absolutely heartbreaking. And that essay was prompted by Trump statements.

[Diehard Ute]

George Takei is almost universally loved in America. I would love to watch Trump attempt to play his silly mind games on George.

GT's essay last year describing his time in the Relocation Camps as a young child was powerful and absolutely heartbreaking. And that essay was prompted by Trump statements.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160918/2b1b9d199127ce504f5396a96d72586a.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

John Podhoretz:

"Trump wasn’t defeated in his quest for the nomination, but it wasn’t because the party or the conservative movement lay down and rolled over for him. Indeed, all the lines of attack being raised today by Hillary Clinton against him, from Trump’s footsie-playing with racists to his foundation’s high jinks to Trump University, were introduced into the national discussion and aired out on the Right for months.

"Democrats and liberals, by contrast, did not adjudicate the matters now dogging Hillary’s candidacy during the primary season. Instead, they left all opposition to the ministrations of a 74-year-old socialist who wasn’t even a Democrat until 2014.

"And his surprising strength in running against her — Sanders ultimately secured 44 percent of the Democratic primary vote — should have made clear that whatever the mainstream Democratic view, ordinary Democrats did see her as shifty, untrustworthy and someone they did not wish to vote for.

"Well, here we are. And here you are, Democrats and liberals. There will be a lot of blame to go around if Trump wins. But a significant share will go to you, because you live in a bubble so impervious to reality, you didn’t realize that nominating a widely disliked person with legal and ethical problems might come to bite you in the ass in the end."

http://nypost.com/2016/09/17/the-liberal-establishments-clinton-obsession-is-blowing-up-in-its-face/

[Utah]

I think the arrogance of the two parties is showing here. They, and their lobbyists, know that they are in full control and they are getting their people put in place.

It will be interesting to see what happens going forward. Is this the beginning of some changes, or will Hillary win, everyone will calm down and return to the daily toil of life and nothing will change?

[concerned]

John Podhoretz:

"Trump wasn’t defeated in his quest for the nomination, but it wasn’t because the party or the conservative movement lay down and rolled over for him. Indeed, all the lines of attack being raised today by Hillary Clinton against him, from Trump’s footsie-playing with racists to his foundation’s high jinks to Trump University, were introduced into the national discussion and aired out on the Right for months.

"Democrats and liberals, by contrast, did not adjudicate the matters now dogging Hillary’s candidacy during the primary season. Instead, they left all opposition to the ministrations of a 74-year-old socialist who wasn’t even a Democrat until 2014.

"And his surprising strength in running against her — Sanders ultimately secured 44 percent of the Democratic primary vote — should have made clear that whatever the mainstream Democratic view, ordinary Democrats did see her as shifty, untrustworthy and someone they did not wish to vote for.

"Well, here we are. And here you are, Democrats and liberals. There will be a lot of blame to go around if Trump wins. But a significant share will go to you, because you live in a bubble so impervious to reality, you didn’t realize that nominating a widely disliked person with legal and ethical problems might come to bite you in the ass in the end."

http://nypost.com/2016/09/17/the-liberal-establishments-clinton-obsession-is-blowing-up-in-its-face/


Well that is revisionist history. In fact, none of the Republican candidates attacked Trump (except Jeb and Kasich to a lesser extent) until it was too late. Cruz famously defended Trump for months, figuring Trump would collapse of his own weight and his supporters would flock to Cruz. The other candidates mostly attacked each other, esp. in Iowa and New Hampshire, hoping to be the last one standing as an alternative to Trump, figuring that the party would never nominate somebody so crazy. It is true that some people like Romney attacked Trump, but even Romney was too late (not until Indiana) as it turned out.

I don't think anyone among the democrats was/is naive to Clinton's weaknesses. All the dems knew the other shoe was going to drop re her emails, and the Repubs attacked her relentlessly and mercilessly during the primaries on all her weaknesses. The dems had no real alternative candidate, once Biden and Warren decided not to run. Would they be doing better? Maybe, but probably not. IMHO, if Obama were running for his third term, he would be way ahead.

[LA Ute]

Well that is revisionist history. In fact, none of the Republican candidates attacked Trump (except Jeb and Kasich to a lesser extent) until it was too late. Cruz famously defended Trump for months, figuring Trump would collapse of his own weight and his supporters would flock to Cruz. The other candidates mostly attacked each other, esp. in Iowa and New Hampshire, hoping to be the last one standing as an alternative to Trump, figuring that the party would never nominate somebody so crazy. It is true that some people like Romney attacked Trump, but even Romney was too late (not until Indiana) as it turned out.

I don't think anyone among the democrats was/is naive to Clinton's weaknesses. All the dems knew the other shoe was going to drop re her emails, and the Repubs attacked her relentlessly and mercilessly during the primaries on all her weaknesses. The dems had no real alternative candidate, once Biden and Warren decided not to run. Would they be doing better? Maybe, but probably not. IMHO, if Obama were running for his third term, he would be way ahead.

My recollection (and I was paying close attention as an anguished Rubio supporter) is different. As soon as Trump became more than a circus sideshow (i.e., started winning) the other candidates were all over him. Even before that, the more ideologically conservative punditry -- National Review (which had a "Never Trump" symposium in its February issue (https://www.nationalreview.com/nrd/articles/430412/conservatives-against-trump)), Commentary (John Podhoretz's magazine, which started attacking Trump in October 2015 (https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/donald-trumps-america/)), Reason (a libertarian publication), the Federalist Society, The Heritage Foundation, and others -- were sounding the alarm. Romney's Hinckley Institute speech was on March 3, one month before the Indiana primary. There were still 54 primary elections to go (including minor ones like Guam, Virgin Island and Puerto Rico, but also including Indiana, Florida, Illinois, Ohio, Arizona, Utah, Wisconsin, California and New York, to name a few). Breakdown here (http://www.uspresidentialelectionnews.com/2016-presidential-primary-schedule-calendar/). IIRC, Trump still hadn't won any state with 50% or more of the vote when Romney gave his speech.

So I don't think it's revisionist history. As for Hillary, I think the modern Democratic party is much more tightly organized and disciplined than the GOP. (I say that pretty much as a compliment.) I don't think you guys would ever have 17 candidates running around on the debate stage. Hillary was chosen early and only Bernie was around to challenge her, which turned out to be a tougher challenge than the party power structure expected it to be.

Just my two cents.

[U-Ute]

This is well done...

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/09/21/joss-whedon-video-vote-save-the-day

:clap:

[LA Ute]

This is well done...

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/09/21/joss-whedon-video-vote-save-the-day

:clap:

I think actors should stick to acting unless they want to run for office.

1935

[U-Ute]

I think actors should stick to acting unless they want to run for office.



Why? How are they any different than, say, the Koch Brothers and their political movements?

[NorthwestUteFan]

Gary Trudeau nailed Trump's M.O. over 17 tears ago.

Doonesbury cartoon from 1999:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160921/64eccd99622d0a223eb956d0e9851d38.jpg

[DrumNFeather]

Hillary Clinton on Between to Ferns with Zach Galifianakis: http://www.motherjones.com/media/2016/09/heres-hillary-clintons-hilariously-awkward-between-two-ferns-interview

[Rocker Ute]

Trump can't even string together a coherent thought.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NorthwestUteFan]

Trump can't even string together a coherent thought.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
He is getting schlonged.


And his poll numbers will probably go up anyway.

[Rocker Ute]

That was a circus. Proof you can just keep shouting a lie and the moderator will stop correcting you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[UTEopia]

I tried to watch the debate but it was really impossible to take anything of substance from it. If that is how the debates are going to be, cancel them. They are worthless.

[LA Ute]

She kicked his rear end, and he helped her. What a foolish man. She didn't deserve the gift he gave her.

[LA Ute]

He is getting schlonged.


And his poll numbers will probably go up anyway.

I think he blew the election tonight.

[Rocker Ute]

I think he blew the election tonight.

I'd think that too, but I've thought that about him the entire election cycle. I'm with NWUF, he'll probably go up in the polls despite being destroyed last night.

He showed he has no idea what he is talking about, can't even complete a thought let alone string together a slightly coherent message. The funniest was him getting angry as he talked about his own temperament.

Any other election year against any other candidate he would be destroyed. He'd be losing so badly it would be record setting. We disqualified Howard Dean for screaming "Yeargh!!!!" Yet Trump brags about not paying federal taxes, leveraging bankruptcy laws, being racist and misogynistic, and not paying people and nothing happens.

Clinton is supremely unlikeable but she can do the job. I wouldn't trust Trump to watch my dog.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Applejack]

I hate that so many people watched this. Did anyone out there change their mind? Anyone learn anything new?

America earned this election.
No. Didn't watch.

[Sullyute]

I hate that so many people watched this. Did anyone out there change their mind? Anyone learn anything new?

America earned this election.

I watched. I was highly entertained. I will watch the next debates too. It is hard to turn away from a train wreck in process.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I hate that so many people watched this. Did anyone out there change their mind? Anyone learn anything new?

America earned this election.
I think very few people are still undecided.

The problem is only around half of the eligible voters will bother to show up. The challenge now will be to persuade people to show up.

[NorthwestUteFan]

That's OK little buckaroo, you can always watch the Disney Channel or Sprout.

[Sullyute]

You make me cry for the future.

How long can you be entertained by the same stupid train wreck? It's been every day now for over a year. Every news story, tweet, late night joke. This got old for me on day two, but here we are on day 400, and he's killing the ratings. He drew almost as many viewers as the super bowl. There hasn't been one new insight to share about trump for an entire year, but we're still following. Like some kind of grotesque pied piper.

It doesn't matter if you despise him. If you are watching the train wreck, he owns a piece of you.

I actually have not watched any of the previous party debates or news interviews. I watch very little TV. I have read and heard a lot on the radio, but I wanted to see both Hillary and Donald together. I enjoyed it. Who cares if I get my entertainment from two millionaires battling on a stage instead of 22 millionaires battling on a field? I don't really see much difference, besides at least the former has some bearing on my future while the later has zero.

[Irving Washington]

I think he blew the election tonight.

Did it change your vote?

[U-Ute]

I hate that so many people watched this. Did anyone out there change their mind? Anyone learn anything new?

America earned this election.

I didn't watch. I had an alternative option of watching k-6 graders take turns chasing some poor person in a plastic T-Rex costume down a rubber track. It was much more entertaining.

[U-Ute]

I watched. I was highly entertained. I will watch the next debates too. It is hard to turn away from a train wreck in process.


Especially when it is coming straight at you.

[U-Ute]

I'm curious to see how Utah votes.

My perception is most of the staunch Republicans in the state can't stand either candidate. In which case, do they even bother to vote? If a large percentage of people in Utah don't vote, who does that help more?

I usually throw my vote away on a third party since the Utah representative is usually all but officially. This year I think my vote will really count.

[Two Utes]

I hate that so many people watched this. Did anyone out there change their mind? Anyone learn anything new?

America earned this election.


Yeah. heaven forbid people in America would tune in to the opportunity to listen to the candidates who are vying for President of the United States and perhaps the most powerful position on earth. It's a really bad thing that more people are paying attention these days.

Don't watch. Ignore. That makes much more sense. Jesus.

[LA Ute]

Did it change your vote?

I'm still writing in Marco Rubio, who can at least string a coherent sentence together. Voting for Clinton is out of the question.

[Rocker Ute]

I'm still writing in Marco Rubio, who can at least string a coherent sentence together. Voting for Clinton is out of the question.

I think LAs thinking is prevalent among conservatives and may just deliver the election nationwide to Trump. If you look at Utah (I know LA doesn't vote here) you see that happening, third-party candidates are taking a surprisingly large swath of voters and giving Utah to Trump. Were it not for that I think that most of those voters would hold their nose and vote for Clinton.

I watched because I wanted to get out of the rhetoric and spin of third parties and see how they would react, not expecting to change my vote. I came away frightened at the thought of Trump as president. It should be truly terrifying. I don't like Clinton but I can see her doing the job. Stop and listen to Trump, we are electing Kim Jong Il. This isn't for me a vote for Clinton, it is a vote against Trump and I find it irresponsible right now to vote for another person and sit on the sidelines while he becomes president.

That's what came of this debate for me. I need to do what I can to keep him out of office.




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[LA Ute]

I think LAs thinking is prevalent among conservatives and may just deliver the election nationwide to Trump. If you look at Utah (I know LA doesn't vote here) you see that happening, third-party candidates are taking a surprisingly large swath of voters and giving Utah to Trump. Were it not for that I think that most of those voters would hold their nose and vote for Clinton.

I watched because I wanted to get out of the rhetoric and spin of third parties and see how they would react, not expecting to change my vote. I came away frightened at the thought of Trump as president. It should be truly terrifying. I don't like Clinton but I can see her doing the job. Stop and listen to Trump, we are electing Kim Jong Il. This isn't for me a vote for Clinton, it is a vote against Trump and I find it irresponsible right now to vote for another person and sit on the sidelines while he becomes president.

That's what came of this debate for me. I need to do what I can to keep him out of office.

I have the luxury of living in California where there is no chance of Hillary losing the state or Trump winning it. Were I in a competitive state I'd try to apply William F. Buckley's rule and vote for the most conservative candidate who can win. I confess I don't know how to apply that rule this time. There's an excellent chance that whichever of these two candidates who wins will be impeached during his/her first term in office.

[LA Ute]

This is funny:

Fairer Questions for the Next Debate

http://freebeacon.com/blog/fairer-questions-next-debate/

[Rocker Ute]

But you've been saying that for a year already. Did you find some new level of disgust in this particular debate?

Well yes. So in other words I've never really cared if someone says they are voting for Johnson or whatever. After seeing that I realized that it is more than just voting for the candidate that aligns with your belief but voting against Trump. The most effective way to ensure he stays out of office is to vote for Clinton.

LA has the luxury of voting his conscience because he is in Cali, those of us in places where it is close, like Utah, need to vote for Clinton. Then the RNC needs to be scoured clean.



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[UTEopia]

I think LAs thinking is prevalent among conservatives and may just deliver the election nationwide to Trump. If you look at Utah (I know LA doesn't vote here) you see that happening, third-party candidates are taking a surprisingly large swath of voters and giving Utah to Trump. Were it not for that I think that most of those voters would hold their nose and vote for Clinton.

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I don't think third party candidates
will give utah to trump. Utah republicans dislike Trump and hate Clinton. They will never vote for a democrat.

I generally vote democrat and my vote in Utah is meaningless. It will be so again this year but like you, I believe it is imperative that Trump not be elected.

[U-Ute]

I wonder if Rubio will carry Utah as a write in.

Or, god forbid, Cruz.

[Irving Washington]

I have the luxury of living in California where there is no chance of Hillary losing the state or Trump winning it. Were I in a competitive state I'd try to apply William F. Buckley's rule and vote for the most conservative candidate who can win. I confess I don't know how to apply that rule this time. There's an excellent chance that whichever of these two candidates who wins will be impeached during his/her first term in office.

Seems pretty clear that if you lived in Ohio you'd vote for Trump

[Rocker Ute]

I think you can relax. Utah will go to Trump, it won't be terribly close, and it won't matter. Feel free to join me in voting for Alex Smith.

That's the problem right there.


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[LA Ute]

Seems pretty clear that if you lived in Ohio you'd vote for Trump


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkJR2LEihQY

[Rocker Ute]

I don't think third party candidates
will give utah to trump. Utah republicans dislike Trump and hate Clinton. They will never vote for a democrat.

I generally vote democrat and my vote in Utah is meaningless. It will be so again this year but like you, I believe it is imperative that Trump not be elected.

I'll see if I can find the link but a poll recently came out that showed he number of Utahns who dislike Trump far outpaces those who dislike Clinton (they are both very disliked). Then you see that Johnson and that BYU grad who is running take about 20% of the vote. Without those options (i.e. only Trump or Clinton) I believe that Utah would go to Clinton. Clinton believes that too so she is campaigning here. I think if people realized the third parties are wasted votes or realize they are in deed electing Trump they'd plug their nose and vote Clinton.

Either way, I'm gonna be as obnoxious as hell... there's a chance I can sway someone through repeated posting on the internet right ;).

With that I'll retire the subject but yeah, c'mon Utah, do the right thing.


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[Rocker Ute]

I don't think they are necessarily wasted votes. For some people, sending a message or protesting a system might be worth more than other considerations.

I think you and Neville Chamberlain would have gotten along. ;)

[Rocker Ute]

I don't get it.

I'm saying if we have a monster at our doorstep, sending a message or protesting a system is not enough. Chamberlain has been widely criticized of his appeasement policy with Germany infamously saying he believed it had achieved "peace in our time" and not recognizing the monster that was at his doorstep. Churchill used this to portray him as missing the boat on Hitler. I fear people who are thinking that they'll register a complaint by voting for a third-party candidate (particularly in swing states or places like Utah) are doing the same ill-informed thing.

[U-Ute]

I'm saying if we have a monster at our doorstep, sending a message or protesting a system is not enough. Chamberlain has been widely criticized of his appeasement policy with Germany infamously saying he believed it had achieved "peace in our time" and not recognizing the monster that was at his doorstep. Churchill used this to portray him as missing the boat on Hitler. I fear people who are thinking that they'll register a complaint by voting for a third-party candidate (particularly in swing states or places like Utah) are doing the same ill-informed thing.


Kind of like the Brexit vote. Everyone thinks everyone else is doing their duty.

[mUUser]

I watched the debate.

I can see me
A. Voting for Johnson, or
B. Writing in a vote, but, not Rubio or Cruz. Ryan's a good idea.

I cannot see me voting for Trump or Clinton. Two horrible candidates. After all the debates are wrapped up, I believe Hillary will win in a landslide.

[Diehard Ute]

I watched the debate.

I can see me
A. Voting for Johnson, or
B. Writing in a vote, but, not Rubio or Cruz. Ryan's a good idea.

I cannot see me voting for Trump or Clinton. Two horrible candidates. After all the debates are wrapped up, I believe Hillary will win in a landslide.

I don't get the Johnson love...unless you're wanting to inhabit other planets.


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[UtahsMrSports]

I don't get the Johnson love...unless you're wanting to inhabit other planets.


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The appeal is that he is a decent person and that's something a lot of people can't say about the other two. I think his fiscally conservative, socially liberal stance appeals to many as well.

He does have some bizarre view as well.

[Diehard Ute]

The appeal is that he is a decent person and that's something a lot of people can't say about the other two. I think his fiscally conservative, socially liberal stance appeals to many as well.

He does have some bizarre view as well.

And has absolutely no knowledge of foreign policy, blows off previous poor statements as "jokes" etc.

He's no better than the rest


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[UtahsMrSports]

I just don't see how voting third party helps trump at all in Utah. The people who will are mostly the ones who normally vote repub but can't stand trump and would never vote dem anyway. If anything it should get Hillary within shouting distance and maybe rally some who might stay home to come out for her.

As for me, I'm going third party. I find both candidates revolting as candidates and I find Hillary less revolting as a person. So I guess I'm cheering for her but I'm voting third party to wash my hands of it.

Ill be very interested to see if mitt endordses the Johnson ticket.

[UtahsMrSports]

And has absolutely no knowledge of foreign policy, blows off previous poor statements as "jokes" etc.

He's no better than the rest


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I'm starting to agree with this. He lost me when he brought up no mandatory vaccines.

[LuckyUte]

I had two choices last night. I had just finished up coaching the boys baseball team and it had just started raining, I could either: (a) go to the pre-season hockey game, the first of the season, walk to the arena in the rain, pay for the ticket, watch two fairly disinterested teams play mostly high minors players who mostly have no shot at the NHL, and then go home in the rain; or (b) I could stay home, stay dry and watch the debate for free... I went to the hockey game. I feel I made the right choice.

[LA Ute]

1939

[Diehard Ute]

I had two choices last night. I had just finished up coaching the boys baseball team and it had just started raining, I could either: (a) go to the pre-season hockey game, the first of the season, walk to the arena in the rain, pay for the ticket, watch two fairly disinterested teams play mostly high minors players who mostly have no shot at the NHL, and then go home in the rain; or (b) I could stay home, stay dry and watch the debate for free... I went to the hockey game. I feel I made the right choice.

You need Netflix or something


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[U-Ute]

The appeal is that he is a decent person and that's something a lot of people can't say about the other two. I think his fiscally conservative, socially liberal stance appeals to many as well.

He does have some bizarre view as well.

Biggest concern about him is national defense. Personally, I don't see that as a big problem. I don't like us spending money abroad when we have lots of issues at home, and we have plenty of people in government to keep an eye on national defense issues and give him guidance.

[Diehard Ute]

Biggest concern about him is national defense. Personally, I don't see that as a big problem. I don't like us spending money abroad when we have lots of issues at home, and we have plenty of people in government to keep an eye on national defense issues and give him guidance.

If you want to be President you should never respond to a question about Aleppo like it's your turn on Jeopardy.



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[NorthwestUteFan]

Johnson's problems go far beyond national defense.

Libertarians also want to the following:
Eliminate all environmental regulations.
Abolish the income tax
End all funding for public schools and make parents responsible for their children's education
Eliminate Social Security
Eliminate Medicare
End categories and quotas for immigration
Eliminate regulations on businesses
Eliminate tariffs and open the ports to unregulated free trade, without oversight
Allow the Free Market to determine what healthcare you can get.

Etc.

Basically, if you own money/property, and are in the top ~10% of earners, then you will probably be OK.

Everybody else, not so much.

Ayn Rand-ian ideals are intriguing to wealthy people in the short term, but they are absolutely disastrous for the nation in the long term.

[U-Ute]

This cracked me up.

It seems like the Trump family and campaign is one big echo chamber.

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/trump-kids-cant-seem-to-figure-out-why-their-shitty-fat-1787198675?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitte r&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

[Diehard Ute]

And for his latest trick Gary Johnson couldn't name a single living foreign leader he admires.

He tried to say the "former Mexican president" but couldn't specify which one.

The US Presidential race. Exposing Americas biggest morons since 2016


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[LA Ute]

A fairly objective (and not very reassuring) critique from a conservative writer who dislikes Trump (and Clinton too, of course):

*****

The Trump Mosh Pit

It’s past time that we all come to grips with the reality that the Trump (http://topics.wsj.com/person/T/Trump/159) candidacy has been carried forward to this unlikely moment by forces in the American population that transcend normal presidential politics. These are essentially the same forces that carried the equally improbable Bernie Sanders to 22 primary victories.

I’ve always found the Sanders phenomenon more interesting, because unlike the well-known reality TV host and brand manager, Sen. Sanders was a 74-year-old Vermont socialist with zero visibility. That this nobody contended with a woman whose political immensity scared off a sitting vice president means that some deep currents are roiling the American electorate.

An agog media class—I was certainly agog—has identified that “something” as anger, frustration, white rage or PC backlash. Call it whatever you want. It’s real, and I don’t think Monday night’s debate killed it. Which is why I don’t think Donald Trump “lost” the debate.

Let us turn, then, to who said what in the debate for some understanding of the Trump paradox: How can a candidate get this far by seeming to say so little that we normally expect of a president?

The word “sound bite,” a term of usage originating in television, is now viewed with derision. Except for one thing: Sound bites work. They convey one idea and stick that idea in the mind. Recite, please, one memorable thing Hillary Clinton said in more than 90 minutes. OK, “trumped-up trickle down.” Her debate was well-constructed, but so is a paint-by-numbers picture.

At one point, Mrs. Clinton was talking about “investing in the middle class,” and “making college debt-free” and “broad-based inclusive growth.”
Trump: “Typical politician. All talk, no action. Sounds good, doesn’t work. Never going to happen. Our country is suffering because people like Secretary Clinton have made such bad decisions in terms of our jobs and in terms of what’s going on.”

Without question much of the Trump side of the debate was a discontinuous morass. But Donald Trump oozes contempt for the status quo. That visceral disdain offsets a lot of missteps and whatever Hillary’s fact-check drones are putting up on her website.

There was an exchange on urban violence. Mrs. Clinton said, “We have to restore trust. We have to work with the police” and “we have to tackle the plague of gun violence.” Who could disagree?

Donald Trump. “Secretary Clinton doesn’t want to use a couple of words. And that’s law and order. We need law and order. If we don’t have it, we’re not going to have a country.”

One of these two is catching the mood of the country, and the other just isn’t.

Are we demeaning a presidential election by saying it is reducible to sound bites? I once thought so. Until it became clear that Donald Trump, like Bernie Sanders, was somehow detecting the complex tectonic shifts inside American politics.

Some of these shifts are disturbing—blue-collar alienation, eroding civil order in some cities—but unlike his always-hedged opponent, Donald Trump slams into them.
This sort of populism is exciting, but often limited.

Bernie went down because he was too one-note. Inequality wasn’t enough. Donald Trump’s one-note is trade, but his overweighting of the issue could sink him. Millions of the suburban voters he needs in battleground states have jobs connected to a strong global trading system. They don’t want to vote for Hillary, but past some point, the “Nafta” rant may prove too much.

So it’s back to the mosh pit. Yankee fans, from the boxes to the bleachers, love their team. But if a guy underperforms or dogs it, they’ll boo him mercilessly. Donald Trump survived Monday night. But one more outing like that, and his phenomenal candidacy could get booed off the field.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-trump-mosh-pit-1475103216

[UtahsMrSports]

If (when?) trump loses his response will be _________?

[U-Ute]

If (when?) trump loses his response will be _________?

"See? I told you the system was rigged. I was right all along."

[concerned]

If (when?) trump loses his response will be _________?


And: i won. I really won. Everybody knows it.

[LA Ute]

The country is in very sad, pitiful shape. It's really pathetic, very, very sad. But I sent a message that only I could send. Did you see how many votes I got? Now I am going on a nice, long vacation.

[U-Ute]

This is the hero we need.

1945

[Devildog]

I'll see if I can find the link but a poll recently came out that showed he number of Utahns who dislike Trump far outpaces those who dislike Clinton (they are both very disliked). Then you see that Johnson and that BYU grad who is running take about 20% of the vote. Without those options (i.e. only Trump or Clinton) I believe that Utah would go to Clinton. Clinton believes that too so she is campaigning here. I think if people realized the third parties are wasted votes or realize they are in deed electing Trump they'd plug their nose and vote Clinton.

Either way, I'm gonna be as obnoxious as hell... there's a chance I can sway someone through repeated posting on the internet right ;).

With that I'll retire the subject but yeah, c'mon Utah, do the right thing.


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Clinton is worse than Trump. I am so sick of the status quo with these politicians. She is so polished and phoney as hell.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlgTwp93E48

[Rocker Ute]

Clinton is worse than Trump. I am so sick of the status quo with these politicians. She is so polished and phoney as hell.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlgTwp93E48

"I'm sick of the status quo so let's burn everything to the ground."

Trump is so unhinged that he is up at 3am stewing about what a washed up beauty pageant winner from 20 years ago said about him.

Normally I encourage everyone to vote but if you breath primarily through your mouth please stay home.


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[LA Ute]

Dorothy Rabinowitz, one of the most articulate conservatives on the WSJ editorial board, empties both barrels on Trump:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-hatred-derangement-syndrome-1475192121

I hope all the people who enabled this disaster are enjoying his obsession with Miss Universe and Rosie O'Donnell.

[Devildog]

"I'm sick of the status quo so let's burn everything to the ground."

Trump is so unhinged that he is up at 3am stewing about what a washed up beauty pageant winner from 20 years ago said about him.

Normally I encourage everyone to vote but if you breath primarily through your mouth please stay home.



Hillary is a mess. More political correctness, more thought police, less freedom, less self direction. If it did burn down it would be better than four more years of this socialist bullshit. You lawyers love the politbureau thought police. If it's gonna run like this... let it burn.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJpWiV-zLoM

[USS Utah]

The appeal is that he is a decent person and that's something a lot of people can't say about the other two. I think his fiscally conservative, socially liberal stance appeals to many as well.

He does have some bizarre view as well.

"What is Aleppo?" disqualified him. I understand being non-interventionist, but you have to keep yourself informed.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Gary Johnson has been smoking too much pot.

[USS Utah]

Dorothy Rabinowitz, one of the most articulate conservatives on the WSJ editorial board, empties both barrels on Trump:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-hatred-derangement-syndrome-1475192121

I hope all the people who enabled this disaster are enjoying his obsession with Miss Universe and Rosie O'Donnell.

What did he say?

[Devildog]

As government expands... liberty contracts. Lawyers are a large part of why this nation has ground to a halt. Please tell us again why Hillary is your choice.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP5Xv7QqXiM

[chrisrenrut]

I hate the thought of Hillary (and Bill) in the White House for 4 years. We'll continue a slow slide towards bigger government, more entitlements, and worse foreign relations. I don't see her doing anything that will heavily impact the economy.

I am terrified of Trump and his cronies in the White House for even 4 days. I could easily see him creating catastrophic, and lasting damage to our country, foreign relations, and the economy.

[Rocker Ute]

As government expands... liberty contracts. Lawyers are a large part of why this nation has ground to a halt. Please tell us again why Hillary is your choice.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP5Xv7QqXiM

You really expect an egomaniac like Trump to work to limit his own power? He is running for one reason only. He's already corrupt. He doesn't even understand the basics of the constitution and you expect him to uphold it? He's getting trolled by a Venezuelan former beauty queen, you think he is going to allow people to defy him or speak against his ideas?

I'll presume you are trolling. Some Republicans are being pretty stupid about this, take the long view. It's a near certainty that Trump will be a disaster and you are convinced Hillary will be too. If Trump gets elected and is a disaster it assures a democrat in the White House after that because there will be no credibility in Republicans any more. So let Hillary win, remove her in four years when she fails and control the White House again for years to come.


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[Ma'ake]

"Hillary and Obama took my microphone to Kenya, and they broke it! And now it's broken!" - Trump (portrayed by Alec Baldwin)

[Devildog]

You really expect an egomaniac like Trump to work to limit his own power? He is running for one reason only. He's already corrupt. He doesn't even understand the basics of the constitution and you expect him to uphold it? He's getting trolled by a Venezuelan former beauty queen, you think he is going to allow people to defy him or speak against his ideas?

I'll presume you are trolling. Some Republicans are being pretty stupid about this, take the long view. It's a near certainty that Trump will be a disaster and you are convinced Hillary will be too. If Trump gets elected and is a disaster it assures a democrat in the White House after that because there will be no credibility in Republicans any more. So let Hillary win, remove her in four years when she fails and control the White House again for years to come.


Do you think Hillary isn't corrupt? Electing her is proof that we have given up our American ideals. She is as blatantly corrupt and self serving as it ever has been throughout history. 12 years of this socialist bullshit... is too much to ask. The damage will be permanent. The government doesn't tell the people... the people tell the government. You've gotten mixed up counsel.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2rVcxkbIQc&amp;feature=youtu.be

[Ma'ake]

Hillary is a mess. More political correctness, more thought police, less freedom, less self direction. If it did burn down it would be better than four more years of this socialist bullshit. You lawyers love the politbureau thought police. If it's gonna run like this... let it burn.


I completely understand the antipathy toward Clinton - she's definitely not my favorite candidate. IMO, America is still America, warts and all, even with ostensible reductions in freedom, like attempts to improve healthcare, like federal educational standards.

As an 11 year old kid, listening to the adult conversation around me, I was convinced the evil feds were going to utterly destroy freedom, and in the process help usher in the Second Coming, because they were forcing everyone to use unleaded gasoline and make us use those evil catalytic converters. It turns out we survived that assault, and the lead levels in school kids went down by 93%.

Looking further back, the 40 hour work week didn't destroy freedom and deviate from Biblical edict - "God worked SIX days and rested on the 7th! How dare we presume to know better than God what is best!"

Granting women the right to vote did not result in the predicted widespread family upheaval, and the rationalization that women already had the vote - through their husbands - is seen in hindsight as a ridiculous position.

What Trump brings that is new, is a clear and honest admiration for an autocratic dictator, and strategic advice from a Putin-associated advisor - Paul Manafort - who advised the former Russian-allied Ukraine president to pre-emptively de-legitimize an election by declaring it "rigged". We all know Putin gets sky-high approval ratings by suppressing and killing opposition, and non-allied journalists.

*If* Trump were elected, he would encounter immediate and strong opposition, which would frustrated his ability to "Make America Great Again", and would feel under siege - from both parties, as he already has - and would plausibly turn to other opinions on what it would take to clean things up and proceed making America Great Again.

This is where the "rigged election" assertion becomes an essential device to be used again, as we move toward 2020. Whether Trump would get enough support from disaffected whites and enough in the military to *REALLY* crack down and potentially suspend future elections and follow Putin's recipe for consolidating an autocratic dictatorship is far less certain. My sense is Putin sees Trump as a useful idiot he can easily manipulate to wreak chaos and damage the US and help elevate Russia, with China joining the effort, for their own interests.

There are innumerable examples of how autocratic dictators have emerged from democracies, and where I thought historically this was an impossibility in the past, as America was truly unique and exceptional, there are an array of circumstances and recent precedents - Brexit, Trump, BLM, middle class erosion, etc - that enough social upheaval could make it possible.

(Damnit, another marathon post. I'm incorrigible.)

[Devildog]

Damn, Ma'ake. I couldn't have said it better than you have. You liberals are lost.

[LA Ute]

What did he say?

The Daily 202: Trump stumbles into Clinton’s trap by feuding with Latina beauty queen

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2016/09/28/daily-202-trump-stumbles-into-clinton-s-trap-by-feuding-with-latina-beauty-queen/57eb0230e9b69b0ec0c0a85d/


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[LA Ute]

The Daily 202: Trump stumbles into Clinton’s trap by feuding with Latina beauty queen

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2016/09/28/daily-202-trump-stumbles-into-clinton-s-trap-by-feuding-with-latina-beauty-queen/57eb0230e9b69b0ec0c0a85d/

The guy has no impulse control and doesn't know when to let things go. Very worrisome traits in a potential POTUS.

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[Devildog]

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Consider your source.

[LA Ute]

Consider your source.

From a highly respected conservative blog:

DOES TRUMP REALLY WANT TO WIN?

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2016/09/does-trump-really-want-to-win.php

It's stupid for him to do this.

[USS Utah]

The Daily 202: Trump stumbles into Clinton’s trap by feuding with Latina beauty queen

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2016/09/28/daily-202-trump-stumbles-into-clinton-s-trap-by-feuding-with-latina-beauty-queen/57eb0230e9b69b0ec0c0a85d/


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I meant the author of the article you linked to. I couldn't read it without being a WSJ subscriber.

[USS Utah]

What Price Victory?

http://theresurgent.com/coming-to-terms-with-trump/

[LA Ute]

I meant the author of the article you linked to. I couldn't read it without being a WSJ subscriber.

Here you go:


There were cheers when Donald Trump assured his Virginia audience last weekend that the wall will be built and, yes, that Mexico would pay for it. But the cheers lacked the roaring ecstasy his promise used to evoke at rallies. No one has the heart, by now, to pretend that such a wall will actually be built, but that’s all right with Mr. Trump’s dauntless fans, who can find plenty of other reasons for their faith in him. The NeverTrump forces, appalled at the prospect of a Trump presidency, are no less passionate.

The NeverHillary forces are another matter entirely—citizens well aware of the darker aspects of Donald Trump’s character but who have nonetheless concluded that they should give him their vote. They are aware of his casual disregard for truth, his self-obsession, his ignorance, his ingrained vindictiveness. Not even the first presidential debate, which saw him erupt into a snarling aside about Rosie O’Donnell, could loosen his hold on that visceral drive to inflict payback, in this case over a feud 10 years old.

The NeverHillary forces are aware, too, of his grandiosity—his announcement that he knows more about Islamic State than any of America’s generals will long be remembered—his impulse-driven character, his insatiable need for applause, the head-turning effect on him of an approving word from Vladimir Putin. The Russian leader’s compliment late last year was of the mildest kind—he referred to Mr. Trump as “talented” and “colorful”—but it was enough to make the candidate’s heart go pitter-patter with gratitude and engender instant expressions of his faith in Mr. Putin’s integrity and leadership. As Mr. Trump himself has explained, “if he says nice things about me, I’m going to say nice things about him.”

Such are the values that drive the Republican candidate’s judgment—a fact interesting to contemplate as one imagines a President Trump dealing with international conflict and rogue heads of state. Still Mr. Trump is now the choice of voters who have concluded that of the two flawed contenders running, he would be far preferable.

Yes, he may be rough around the edges, but he’s a fresh force, the argument goes, unlike the establishment war horse, Mrs. Clinton, with her history of scandal and rumors thereof, and her decades in politics. Mr. Trump is the dynamo who will blow up the old order. He’s authentic, a man with the courage of his convictions.

Mr. Trump has not, of course, shown himself notably reliable as regards the courage of his convictions. It’s by now impossible to count the number of times and ways in which he’s sidled away from his grand plans on immigration, that promise to deport everyone here illegally, not to mention his proposal to institute a total block on Muslim immigration “till we figure things out.” He’s proffered no less than three different views on abortion, one of which called for “at least some punishment” for the woman involved—quickly changed to wait, no, it should be the doctor.

Still, it was the view of Donald Trump as a fearless foe of liberal piety, that image of him as an outsider, untainted by experience in government—itself one of the more remarkable boasts of any presidential campaign in memory—that persuaded so many Americans he is the leader the country needs. As opposed, that is, to Mrs. Clinton—the educated former secretary of state, with lengthy experience in government.

Equally remarkable, even for a change election, that experience, those years of education in national security somehow rank high on the list of defects the anti-Hillary brigades find so objectionable. Here is a flaw apparently even more rankling than her email server history, the questions about Benghazi, or the Clinton Foundation: She offers nothing of Mr. Trump’s aura of free-swinging dynamism, not to mention a mind blissfully uncluttered by facts, knowledge of geopolitical realities, and the like.

Mrs. Clinton hasn’t failed to provide, on her own, cause for concern about her own proclivities and never more intolerably than in that debate Monday when she chose to ramble on, familiarly, about institutional racism, which invariably emerges in her responses on conflagration involving police action. Americans have a right to cringe at this reflexive, factually distorted, and inflammatory sermonizing. The accompanying, deep felt tribute to the police and their heroism, invariably added, can never offset the insidiousness of these messages.

Even so, such proclivities pale next to the occasion for cringing that would come with a Trump presidency. No one witnessing Mr. Trump’s primary race—his accumulation of Alt-Right cheerleaders, white supremacists and swastika devotees—could fail to notice the menacing tone and the bitterness that came with it.

Not for nothing did the Democrats bring off a triumph of a convention, alive with cheer, not to mention its two visitors whose story would lift countless American hearts. They were, of course, the Muslim couple Khizr and Ghazala Khan, whose son, Capt. Humayun Khan—brought here as a child—died in Iraq in 2004, saving his men from an explosive-rigged car.

His countrymen now go streaming to his grave at Arlington National Cemetery to leave notes and flowers. He reminded us of who we are—the nation that takes its newcomers and transforms them into Americans. After 9/11, Capt. Khan, American, could scarcely wait to serve his country. The national response to the Khans injected a sense of unity and affirmation, however brief, into an atmosphere of embittering divisiveness.

The end of the election is now in sight. Some among the anti-Hillary brigades have decided, in deference to their exquisite sensibilities, to stay at home on Election Day, rather than vote for Mrs. Clinton. But most Americans will soon make their choice. It will be either Mr. Trump or Mrs. Clinton—experienced, forward-looking, indomitably determined and eminently sane. Her election alone is what stands between the American nation and the reign of the most unstable, proudly uninformed, psychologically unfit president ever to enter the White House.

I can't be as positive about HRC as Ms. Rabinowitz is but she makes good points about Trump.

[Rocker Ute]

Do you think Hillary isn't corrupt? Electing her is proof that we have given up our American ideals. She is as blatantly corrupt and self serving as it ever has been throughout history. 12 years of this socialist bullshit... is too much to ask. The damage will be permanent. The government doesn't tell the people... the people tell the government. You've gotten mixed up counsel.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2rVcxkbIQc&amp;feature=youtu.be

I'm one of the 5 non attorneys on the board, thank you.

Nobody can refute what Trumps policies might be because it changes from day to day, hour to hour to fit whatever lie he is telling at the moment. He knows guys like you really well, that you'll ignore things that you object to and take note of the things you like, so say it all and know that they'll take the bait hook line and sinker.

I don't like HRC too but at least she'll maintain rule of law and not try to usurp the constitution.

Gotta be honest, I've met people who are holding their nose and voting for Trump but you are the first I've met who is sincerely for him.

This should piss you off:

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2016/9/30/1576113/-If-You-Tell-Me-You-Are-Supporting-Trump-I-Already-Know-Seven-Things-About-You


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[chrisrenrut]

Gotta be honest, I've met people who are holding their nose and voting for Trump but you are the first I've met who is sincerely for him.

I was thinking this earlier today. I don't know one person real or virtual who backs Trump on his merits as a candidate. I know many who will quietly vote for him out of their blind rage against Hillary, and/or some sense of loyalty to the GOP.

I too am one of the 5 non-attorneys on the board. Although I did have a prosecutor object to a my question to a witness during traffic court. At 17 years old, that made me feel kind of big-time. But I lost the case, so I gave up any thoughts of the law as a profession.

[Devildog]

This should piss you off:

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2016/9/30/1576113/-If-You-Tell-Me-You-Are-Supporting-Trump-I-Already-Know-Seven-Things-About-You



It doesn't. Another person with an opinion. Hillary will maintain the rule of law? Just like she has demonstrated in office as Secretary of State? A private in the military has better OPSEC discipline than she displayed as the Secretary of State. Trump said that right... she didn't make a mistake... she did that on purpose. The only reasons to set up a private server for state department e-mail is to avoid accountability. It is corrupt and dishonest at its core. I've seen you attempt to rationalize her conduct. Your objectivity regarding her is as suspect as mine possibly could be.

[Devildog]

This lady has demonstrated that she is a horrendous leader in real life. You don't like what Trump says... I despise what Hillary has done.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CJBuUwd0Os

[LA Ute]

Gotta love the Clintons.

http://nypost.com/2016/10/02/inside-the-penthouse-shenanigans-at-bill-clintons-presidential-library/


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[Ma'ake]

Republican voters should think into the future.

What are the chances that Hillary would/could declare herself Dictator-for-Life? What are the chances she could even be re-elected? She's the most flawed Democratic candidate in a long time. If she's up for re-election in 2020, there are dozens of good Republicans that could defeat her. (This is the chatter of Republican #NeverTrumps, not the liberal Ma'ake in Bountiful, Utah.)

Then consider Trump. His own ghost writer, who got to really know him, said it's possible a Trump presidency may end civilization, given his now apparent emotional immaturity. Once he attains that highest office, with the only jet that is better than his opulent 757, do you really think he would give that up? His repeated claims of the election being "rigged" are a very intentional set up.

Regarding the hacking of Arizona's election systems, Trump says, "we just don't know who did it. It could be the Russians, it could be the Chinese, it could be a 400 pound slob on a bed. My 10 year old son is amazing with computers".

If Trump is elected, expect him to follow the recipe laid out by Paul Manafort, advisor of numerous autocratic dictators, and a key conduit to the oligarchists of Russia, ie, to Putin. The closer we get to 2020, we'll have multiple hacks of electoral systems, maybe more widespread cyber attacks, and Trump will say that *ONLY HE* can protect us from these forces, and he'll need to suspend the elections and perhaps enlist Donald, Jr. "because he's so smart and I can trust him, and really, who can anyone trust anymore?"

With the revelation that Trump lost $900M in the mid nineties, and used that to avoid paying taxes for the next two decades, with the spin of "I'm so brilliant, I'm qualified to fix the system, because I know how to play the system" is incredibly condescending of everyone.

It's like Mr. Crimson's joke when the rumors were flying that we were going to get a PAC-12 invitation: "I hate the BCS as much as anyone else. I just think it's better if we fight the system from the inside, not the outside".

Mr. Crimson was joking. Trump is seriously trying to pawn this line off on voters.

If you want a preview of where Trump will take us, watch what Julian Assange, using Russian hacked data, tries to do to disrupt our election, probably this week.

When Trump says he wants to Make America Great Again, does anyone truly believe that sales pitch?

What Trump wants is to make Donald Trump even bigger, more famous, more powerful and richer than anyone else in human history. Putin knows this, Assange knows this. Do you think they have America's best interests at heart?

I hope not.

[Rocker Ute]

Bill Clinton calls Obamacare "The craziest thing in the world..."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/04/politics/bill-clinton-obamacare-craziest-thing/index.html

He's right.


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[LA Ute]

I get a kick out of the back-and-forth on videos like this one (in response to the one some actors did):


https://vimeo.com/185223229

[NorthwestUteFan]

This is hilarious. And they didn't even need to write much of Trump's material because a lot of his lines were direct quotes.

-nQGBZQrtT0

[Devildog]

Bill Clinton calls Obamacare "The craziest thing in the world..."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/04/politics/bill-clinton-obamacare-craziest-thing/index.html

He's right.




Bill Clinton looks ill... do you think he's OK? Dude doesn't look right. Being married to that bitch has got to suck. Maybe it's taking it's toll.

[concerned]

Bill Clinton looks ill... do you think he's OK? Dude doesn't look right. Being married to that bitch has got to suck. Maybe it's taking it's toll.

I also think he looks feeble, much older than his years. I saw him walking down the street a couple weeks ago in Salt Lake, and he walked very slowly. Sort of put one foot in front of the other as if he's unsure of his step. I thought the same thing when he walked out to give his speech at the Democratic Convention. If she gets elected, I would not be surprised if he does not survive the term. He also speak slowly, as if he's searching for the word to say, or he has lost his train of thought.

[NorthwestUteFan]

He was forced to change his diet after his heart attack and heart surgery a few years ago. I think there were a few other serious medical issues well.

Growing old is serious business.

[Applejack]

Bill Clinton looks ill... do you think he's OK? Dude doesn't look right. Being married to that bitch has got to suck. Maybe it's taking it's toll.

Not a great post.

[Rocker Ute]

Both candidates are as old or older than my parents. Just close your eyes for a moment and try to imagine your parents in the white house.

The old people smell has to be overwhelming.

[concerned]

Both candidates are as old or older than my parents. Just close your eyes for a moment and try to imagine your parents in the white house.


Here is a trivia question I saw the other day that surprised me: rank oldest to youngest: Trump, Bill Clinton, Romney. It is a trick question (sort of)--they are all the same age. But Romney seems years younger. They are only slightly older than Reagan at his first inauguration.

P.s. I am probably closer to your parents age than to yours, so I really cant imagine my parents in the white house.

[USS Utah]

Six reasons why Hillary haters should not vote for Trump:

https://theringer.com/six-reasons-conservatives-should-not-vote-for-donald-trump-df1df2a9f8c5#.7p8ka2sq8

[Ma'ake]

Trump's conversation with Billy Bush has blown the top off the election. It could actually get worse, if The Apprentice allegations are substantiated.

Republicans are running away from him like he is a suicide bomber. Some are suggesting Trump step down, which would make it Pence vs Clinton, less than a month away from election day.

It's too late to alter the ballot like this, given that people have already started voting. It would be contested, probably state-by-state, and might go to a (possibly) dead-locked Supreme Court.

It seems to me the best option for Republicans, right now, is to have Pence and other GOP primary candidates keep campaigning, but essentially abandon the presidential campaign, and try to support down-ticket Republicans, and start pointing to 2020.

The same issues that led to the rise of Trump - disaffected middle class whites - aren't going away, and based on underlying economic realities, they will likely intensify. Republicans would have 3 years to get their act together, and hope Hillary is a one term president.

Wowser...

[Diehard Ute]

Would it necessarily be pence? Are there rules for this kind of thing? I know it's just a dream, but it sure would be great to see.

Well there are rules, but they're different for each state.

Utah, for example, does not allow a candidates name to be removed from a ballot. (See the democratic AG candidate dropping out). Wisconsin is the same at quick glance.

Now the Republican rules state they can either have the RNC pick a new candidate or reconvene a convention, but I'm fairly certain that's something that's done early, not a month from Election Day (and no the VP candidate gets no special treatment when it comes to who is picked)


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[Rocker Ute]

There needs to be an investigation into this. Trump is bragging about sexually assaulting women in that video. Makes my stomach turn.

I keep seeing people holding out hope that there is some redeeming quality in this man, but the truth is Donald Trump is exactly who he appears to be. And now it sounds like he literally needs to be behind bars. I can't wait to hear the justification of some people about having a sex offender as a president. Like I've been saying, not voting for Trump is not enough, we need to vote to ensure he has no chance of being elected.

[Ma'ake]

I predict we'll hear Republicans pushing the idea that whether the President keels over, or the President-elect, or in this case, the presidential candidate, voters actually vote for a ticket, not for an individual, and Pence should be considered the top of the ticket, now.

Trump is a dead man walking, politically, and we may see Republicans vow to immediately impeach him, and "that would be preferable to another Clinton into the White House".

I don't think this strategy will work, as the polls show a widening Clinton lead, before this political Krakatoa blew, but this campaign is so unprecedented, it's hard to know.

As a point of reference, on my falling back on polling data, by Election Day 2012, the polls showed Obama leading Romney by 0.7%. The final vote was a 3.9% win for Obama, which is explained by a superior Democratic ground game, and superior Obama campaign analytics, etc.

Republicans will abandon Trump enmasse, immediately. Will the "Pence is our man" strategy work? It's doubtful, at best.

EDIT - Another reason I think this strategy won't work is there's simply not enough time to bring along the hardened Trump supporters to this line of thinking, which means a more fractured GOP base than already exists, which may dampen GOP turnout, as Trump's offensive remarks split households even more. "If you vote for that crass pervert, I'm going to question *our* marriage!"

This campaign has included:

Economics - eroding middle class, globalization, the social/psychological impact of widening inequalities (much like Brexit)

Sociology - reactions to a sense of losing identity / power (based on the economics), having a brown president, etc.

Now Psychology is stepping forward to the podium - human beings have an enormous capacity to rationalize their own behavior and thinking, and it takes a lot to alter positions... and some people are simply unable to change.

Even if Republicans offered up the grab bag of sales pitches and angles, it's almost certainly not enough.

"None of this would be an issue if we had never given women the right to vote. Women are reacting emotionally to this, where men voters could calmly balance Trump's negatives with his perceived ability to turn the country around". <<< I'm reaching back in time on this point, if hundred year olds could debate with us. I'm not *that* bad at satire!

[Diehard Ute]

People are so funny about rules. This would obviously be a situation rare enough to throw out the rules.

Now is the time for either Ryan or Romney to say "Enough, I really didn't want to, but this is beyond stupid. I am now the republican candidate for president. I will do this for the country I love." Who in the gop wouldn't be relieved to have a way out? And who in America wouldn't watch the final debate?

See I'm just the opposite. The GOP deserves whatever happens for getting behind the ass in the first place. They could have stopped this and chose not to. They shouldn't get an out.


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[Ma'ake]

Would it necessarily be pence? Are there rules for this kind of thing? I know it's just a dream, but it sure would be great to see.

There isn't enough time for rules to play out, and like Diehard says, they're different in different areas. If this had come out in June, the GOP might have been able to kick Trump out at the convention, over the political inertia his supporters bring.

Other possibilities:

- Russians launch a very large cyber attack on the nation, to try and create chaos and delay the election. Obama is punching the Russians right now, over Syria, and the DNC hacks. It's clear to me they prefer Trump, but I don't think they're willing to use their cyber bullets propping up Trump.

- The election gets litigated, bringing Trump's claims that "the election is rigged" back for another round of damage to the nation.

[concerned]

Utah's ballots were printed in August and can't be changed. They've already been mailed in North Carolina and Florida and voting has begun. I read that the RNC considered this during the gold star mother controversy in early August, and decided even then it was too late to take him off the ballot.

[Diehard Ute]

Utah's ballots were printed in August and can't be changed. They've already been mailed in North Carolina and Florida and voting has begun. I read that the RNC considered this during the gold star mother controversy in early August, and decided even then it was too late to take him off the ballot.

Yup.

Rules are rules for a reason.


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[Ma'ake]

An article this morning dampened the assumption Republicans will abandon him, enmasse, at this point.

It pointed out the first Republicans to actually pull endorsements have been Utah Republicans, and everyone knows Trump's had a "Mormon problem" for a long time. And Utah Mormons have a more credible third party option to ease their consciences and allow them to still vote: Evan McMullin.

(We may see the D-New endorse McMullin, wouldn't be surprising.)

Other Republicans have condemned his remarks - of course - but I think many are still gauging the impact, and its effect down-ticket. These are professional politicos who've been dealing with the Trump phenomenon for a year, so IMO they question conventional wisdom, and their own instincts, on Trump.

My sense is this could pull Trump down maybe 5 points, but a lot of evangelicals are saying he's still the best candidate, even after learning about this video. 90+% of voters have their decisions in concrete, at this point. They'll simply turn off the TV, and say it's all been rigged, and maybe Hollywood created the video, and Trump's apology video.

[Diehard Ute]

An article this morning dampened the assumption Republicans will abandon him, enmasse, at this point.

It pointed out the first Republicans to actually pull endorsements have been Utah Republicans, and everyone knows Trump's had a "Mormon problem" for a long time. And Utah Mormons have a more credible third party option to ease their consciences and allow them to still vote: Evan McMullin.

(We may see the D-New endorse McMullin, wouldn't be surprising.)

Other Republicans have condemned his remarks - of course - but I think many are still gauging the impact, and its effect down-ticket. These are professional politicos who've been dealing with the Trump phenomenon for a year, so IMO they question conventional wisdom, and their own instincts, on Trump.

My sense is this could pull Trump down maybe 5 points, but a lot of evangelicals are saying he's still the best candidate, even after learning about this video. 90+% of voters have their decisions in concrete, at this point. They'll simply turn off the TV, and say it's all been rigged, and maybe Hollywood created the video, and Trump's apology video.

Which speaks volumes to the quality of people who lead a supposed religious group of people.

And for anyone who thinks Trump isn't the person the video shows, he tweeted this morning "Certainly has been an interesting 24 hours!"





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[LA Ute]

I can't stand Trump and as a Republican I have always been furious, dismayed, depressed and astonished that he got nominated. I will never vote for him. Still, it's just too facile to blame "the Republicans" for this. Overall, the news media gave Trump 10 times as much free media exposure as the rest of the Republican candidates combined. There were 17 Republican candidates. This diluted the "sane" Republican vote. Meanwhile, what has come to be called the "alt-right" emerged and formed a base for Trump that could not be deterred by anything he said or did. All of those factors, and others, combined to allow him to become the nominee, fair and square.

I think the Trump phenomenon -- the hijacking of the Republican Party -- is a symptom of true sickness in our society right now, and of true highly-polarized disturbances in the body politic, and can't be simply something "the Republicans" did and ought be punished for. Probably the majority of Republicans opposed Trump throughout the primaries.

Also, I must admit that it is amusing to watch the smug expressions of shock and disgust from Democrats over things Trump said 11 years ago, while those same folks are not bothered at all by similar statements by President Clinton, and assaults he made against various women.

Anyway, it's a disgusting scene. We will have President Clinton (the second) soon, and I hope she won't do anything terrible while president. There is no doubt that she will have more than one scandal while she is president. That is just how she rolls. If Republicans can hold onto one house of Congress, she will be at least restrained in what she can do; and we might even get some good legislation, like we did during the first Clinton administration, thanks to W. Clinton's willingness to compromise and pretend that the legislation passed was his idea, and the Republicans' willingness to let him do that. Besides, it appears that what HRC says in public is not what she truly believes (read the transcripts of the recently-leaked recordings of her talking about her "private views" and her "public views"), so things may be OK. But I think liberal glee and smugness over what is happening to the GOP is kind of disgusting in a way. We have a country to think about, you know. We are left hoping that Hillary will be a decent president. I say "hope" because no one really knows what she truly thinks about just about anything.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I applaud Gary Herbert and Jason Chaffetz for dumping Trump. But neither of them should ever have supported him in the first place.

LA, Trumpenstein got the most primary votes (total) of any candidate in history. Plenty of Republican voters supported him. I realize the party leaders don't support him (and Ronald Reagan would be a Hillary Clinton supporter in the election - maybe he would have backed Kasich in the primaries), but at the ground level he still has tremendous support. And this fact is very disturbing.

Sancho, do you even America, Bro? Rules are in place for a reason.

[Ma'ake]

I think the Trump phenomenon -- the hijacking of the Republican Party -- is a symptom of true sickness in our society right now, and of true highly-polarized disturbances in the body politic, and can't be simply something "the Republicans" did and ought be punished for.

Also, I must admit that it is amusing to watch the smug expressions of shock and disgust from Democrats over things Trump said 11 years ago, while those same folks are not bothered at all by similar statements by President Clinton, and assaults he made against various women.

Anyway, it's a disgusting scene. We will have President Clinton (the second) soon, and I hope she won't do anything terrible while president...

Agree, agree, agree. The flip side of Democrats' outrage over Trump while before defending Bill is hearing good Utahns admit "boys will be boys" while being disappointed in Trump, but still supporting him.

The human mind...

My hope is a President Clinton would figure out how to bypass major missteps. She'll make mistakes, and they'll be amplified to fit the negative narrative of her - that's politics.

As a nation, we have some pretty deep seated issues to work on. I hope both parties get more sober - and more cooperative - in 2017. We need to do better.

[Ma'ake]

LA, Trumpenstein got the most primary votes (total) of any candidate in history. Plenty of Republican voters supported him.

The net difference in Trump's primary vote bump I would attribute to lingering antipathy for Obama, fear and loathing of Hillary, and people coming out of the woodwork because Trump was appealing to their emotions about losing status, economic anxiety, a longing for the "good old days", etc.

Similarly, California now has more registered voters than almost every other state has people. How many of these new voters - offended Hispanics who previously avoided Gringo politics, and others - are not that knowledgeable about our nation's economic, social and other problems?

Bernie resonated with a lot of young people who never really had faith in "the system". Donald got a lot of support from older people who've lost faith. The invigorated engagement is good.

Hopefully people stay engaged...for our nation's future (regardless of where they will side on issues and philosophy).

[LA Ute]

LA, Trumpenstein got the most primary votes (total) of any candidate in history. Plenty of Republican voters supported him.


Yes, they did. The new votes he got were not people who had voted in prior elections and won't vote in future elections. He didn't get 50% in any primary until other candidates started dropping out.

Please, my liberal friends, refrain from lecturing real Republicans about the guy who hijacked the party this time. You're supposed to be the educated, discerning voters who appreciate nuance. Put down your broad brushes and enjoy your own candidate.



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[NorthwestUteFan]

LA, How do you plan to disenfranchise all these new voters?

[USS Utah]

I am a believer in the idea that we get the government that we deserve, and here we got the candidates we deserved. Call me what you will, but I do believe we are reaping what we sowed 4 years ago. I don't say that because Romney lost, there were legitimate reasons for people not to support him. The problem, from my perspective, was that he was rejected, not for those legitimate reasons, but because of his religion and for other reasons not so legitimate. Many in his own party did not want him to be the nominee because of his religion, many in his own party complained about not having their collective religious right ego stroked at the convention, and many chose to stay home on election day. Four years later, many who rejected Romney for being a "Northern liberal" rather quickly lined up to support a New Yorker who has a history of supporting the Clintons and other Democrats, and continued to support him despite his many statements which would suggest at least some conflict with basic Christianity, and at least some who will continue to support him after this latest revelation.

On the flip side, I was not impressed by Democrats and the "kill Romney" strategy. Some of that was just typical Democrat tactics to be used against whoever the GOP nominee was, but not all of it, and for at least a few, Romney's religion was a factor. Of course, the 47% comment played into what the Democrats were doing, but in retrospect, as big of a mistake as that comment was, it pales in comparison to just about every controversial statement made by Trump in the last 18 months or so, from not liking guys who get captured to the latest controversy.

[LA Ute]

LA, How do you plan to disenfranchise all these new voters?

Why disenfranchise them? They are at best a minority voice in the party. Come up with a candidate and a message that they won't like. Maybe don't run 16 opponents to the one guy who commands the alt-right's support.

How are the Dems going to deal with the Sanders voters? Those guys aren't going away. This time the Democratic Party, which is much more willing to muscle people than the GOP, beat back Sanders so Hillary could win. (See the leaked e-mails for evidence.)

[Rocker Ute]

LA got it right. Neither party put out a great nominee. This Hillary Clinton win is akin to BYUs 84 national championship: winning because no one better showed up.

Trump will still command a large part of the votes, but those still sitting on the fence or those who were uneasily voting for Trump got their answer with this and he is done.

I actually won't be surprised with this if binders full of women come out with sexual assault claims against Trump in the next few months. The women he's groped are going to come out of the woodwork and the list won't be small.

Maybe he and Dr Huxtable can share a jail cell together.


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[LA Ute]

LA got it right. Neither party put out a great nominee. This Hillary Clinton win is akin to BYUs 84 national championship: winning because no one better showed up.

Trump will still command a large part of the votes, but those still sitting on the fence or those who were uneasily voting for Trump got their answer with this and he is done.

I actually won't be surprised with this if binders full of women come out with sexual assault claims against Trump in the next few months. The women he's groped are going to come out of the woodwork and the list won't be small.

Maybe he and Dr Huxtable can share a jail cell together.

Trump is an opposition researcher's dream. And the damaging revelations are just beginning. I bet we'll see something new every day or so between now and the election. (I might add that lots of his GOP detractors -- including me -- predicted that exactly this sort of thing would happen if he got the nomination.)

[Diehard Ute]

Trump is an opposition researcher's dream. And the damaging revelations are just beginning. I bet we'll see something new every day or so between now and the election. (I might add that lots of his GOP detractors -- including me -- predicted that exactly this sort of thing would happen if he got the nomination.)

That's why I can't grasp why Republicans wouldn't come up with a better candidate. This was their year to take 1600 back, but they shot themselves in the foot instead.

The Democrats have a mediocre (at best) candidate. A moderate republican candidate would have won. But that's the problem with the parties. Moderate is a bad word.


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[Rocker Ute]

That's why I can't grasp why Republicans wouldn't come up with a better candidate. This was their year to take 1600 back, but they shot themselves in the foot instead.

The Democrats have a mediocre (at best) candidate. A moderate republican candidate would have won. But that's the problem with the parties. Moderate is a bad word.


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I equate it to that old crabs in a pot analogy. They had 16 candidates who all pulled each other back in and Trump came out on top. If there had been 3 or 4 we have a completely different story about Trump and he would have been the first candidate out. But each candidate cannibalized the other. Just think, we could have had Jeb! versus Hillary!

[Diehard Ute]

I equate it to that old crabs in a pot analogy. They had 16 candidates who all pulled each other back in and Trump came out on top. If there had been 3 or 4 we have a completely different story about Trump and he would have been the first candidate out. But each candidate cannibalized the other. Just think, we could have had Jeb! versus Hillary!

And that's sorta the point, that's a disorganized party with no planning or direction.


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[Ma'ake]

That's why I can't grasp why Republicans wouldn't come up with a better candidate. This was their year to take 1600 back, but they shot themselves in the foot instead.



Hillary survived Bernie. Trump tapped into similar public anger on the GOP side. Both parties got T-boned by new participants everyone assumed were previously simply disinterested.

2020 will go to the party which can best re-invent themselves to address issues outside the historic paradigms.

[Diehard Ute]

Hillary survived Bernie. Trump tapped into similar public anger on the GOP side. Both parties got T-boned by new participants everyone assumed were previously simply disinterested.

2020 will go to the party which can best re-invent themselves to address issues outside the historic paradigms.

Of course Sanders wasn't a good candidate either.

And people who threw their support behind Johnson are supporting a shady candidate as well.

The parties need to align back towards the everyday citizen and get away from being fringe run.


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[LA Ute]

And that's sorta the point, that's a disorganized party with no planning or direction.


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It ain't the Politburo. How does a party keep someone from running? I think we will se some reform along those lines. Ben Carson and Rand Paul, for example, had no business being on those debate stages. Neither did Carly Fiorina, as much as l like her.


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[Diehard Ute]

It ain't the Politburo. How does a party keep someone from running? I think we will se some reform along those lines. Ben Carson and Rand Paul, for example, had no business being on those debate stages. Neither did Carly Fiorina, as much as l like her.


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Please, like there aren't plenty of back room deals etc that happen about who runs.

The reality is the Republican Party underestimated Trump. The rumblings for months were he'd never make it on the ballot. By the time they figure out he was going to make it it was too late.




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[LA Ute]

Please, like there aren't plenty of back room deals etc that happen about who runs.

The reality is the Republican Party underestimated Trump. The rumblings for months were he'd never make it on the ballot. By the time they figure out he was going to make it it was too late.




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When you say "the Republican Party underestimated Trump," I think you mean the other candidates did. That's true. In their defense, I don't think they knew, or could reasonably have known, that that the news media would give Trump 10 times as much free exposure as all of the other 16 candidates combined. There were a number of other "black swan" elements to this story. You can say all you want that the Republicans are a bunch of dummies who should've seen this coming and stopped it, but that is a pretty naïve point of view, IMO. As far as backroom deals go, how do you think Trump could have been stopped? What should the party leaders have done to prevent him from succeeding?


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[Rocker Ute]

When you say "the Republican Party underestimated Trump," I think you mean the other candidates did. That's true. In their defense, I don't think they knew, or could reasonably have known, that that the news media would give Trump 10 times as much free exposure as all of the other 16 candidates combined. There were a number of other "black swan" elements to this story. You can say all you want that the Republicans are a bunch of dummies who should've seen this coming and stopped it, but that is a pretty naïve point of view, IMO. As far as backroom deals go, how do you think Trump could have been stopped? What should the party leaders have done to prevent him from succeeding?


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Backroom party deals caused the DNC chairman to resign because of their tacit support of Hillary.


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[LA Ute]

Backroom party deals caused the DNC chairman to resign because of their tacit support of Hillary.


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I don't think it was very tacit. The Democrats are much more willing and able to engineer their nominees. Or so it seems. I kind of envy that.


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[Rocker Ute]

I'm happy people are withdrawing their support for Trump but I guess the question is why did it take admitting sexual assault to get there? He has said many things nearly as deplorable as this in very recent years if not during his campaign.

I mean we already knew he said if Ivanka wasn't his daughter he'd be dating her. Game over there. He's call women pigs and dogs. He's mocked gold star families. He's said things about Ted Cruz's wife. He's mocked the disability of a reporter. He's encouraged violence at his rallies. He mocked POWs. He's always bragged about his infidelity.

This is nothing new. Who was even remotely shocked by this latest scandal? Nobody.

So what is wrong with people? I just heard McCain withdrew his support, how did he have it in the first place when he said he prefers people who don't get caught? How could Carli Fiorina endorse him when he made comments about her appearance?

It goes on and on. I'm just glad it seems America is finally coming to its senses. Our reward is another corrupt politician and another scandal-ridden presidency. The only thing giving me hope is Hillary sounds like she is more moderate in reality than publicly.


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[Ma'ake]

I'm happy people are withdrawing their support for Trump but I guess the question is why did it take admitting sexual assault to get there?

There are two aspects of "how this happened":

Trump was a phenomenon, brought new people under the tent, exposed a fury and turned it into votes like the other Republicans weren't. He rose like any other autocratic speaking to people's emotions, with simplistic assurances.

The second aspect is how Republicans accommodated him. The preview to this was how the Tea Party forced the GOP into congressional dysfunction.

Politics is an ugly process. Read about Lincoln's slow flip flop on the lead up to the Civil War, for reference.

We Dems have our own dirty laundry.

[Irving Washington]

Here's my question: if not for future Supreme Court nominees, how many reluctant Trump supporters would now not vote or vote for someone else? My guess is a significant number.

[LA Ute]

Here's my question: if not for future Supreme Court nominees, how many reluctant Trump supporters would now not vote or vote for someone else? My guess is a significant number.

The SCOTUS is the only principled basis for supporting Trump, IMO. I don't buy it but at least it's an articulated, rational basis.

[USS Utah]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbmQz_O8oWg

Events this week, though not surprising, reminded me of the story about the boy and the snake.

[NorthwestUteFan]

The SCOTUS is the only principled basis for supporting Trump, IMO. I don't buy it but at least it's an articulated, rational basis.
But that puts Mike Lee on the SCOTUS...

[LA Ute]

“…if you can’t see what a hot mess Donald Trump is yet, I doubt you ever will and I wonder what fresh Hell will allow the realization to penetrate your consciousness. Either way, this video is not an aberration. It is not a special circumstance. It’s him. There’s no pivot in him. There’s no ‘presidential’ switch to flip. He’s Donald Trump all the way down. And he will humiliate and debase his defenders so long as they feel the need to defend this indefensible man.”

--Jonah Goldberg

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/440859/trumps-piggishness-surprises-beguiled


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[Irving Washington]

“…if you can’t see what a hot mess Donald Trump is yet, I doubt you ever will and I wonder what fresh Hell will allow the realization to penetrate your consciousness. Either way, this video is not an aberration. It is not a special circumstance. It’s him. There’s no pivot in him. There’s no ‘presidential’ switch to flip. He’s Donald Trump all the way down. And he will humiliate and debase his defenders so long as they feel the need to defend this indefensible man.”

--Jonah Goldberg

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/440859/trumps-piggishness-surprises-beguiled


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I think the comments, as usual, answer the question, particularly those defending the statements. Its not about the SCOTUS, its about Clinton hate. I' m just surprised that they appeared in the National Review. What would Bill Buckley think? Has Kenneth Starr apologized for the Donald?

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161009/66d0de994b57ae727708fc88117a6d6c.jpg


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[LA Ute]

I think the comments, as usual, answer the question, particularly those defending the statements. Its not about the SCOTUS, its about Clinton hate. I' m just surprised that they appeared in the National Review. What would Bill Buckley think? Has Kenneth Starr apologized for the Donald?

I haven't read the comments, but I do think you have to understand that a lot of non-crazy people are very concerned about another round of the Clintons in the White House. I personally find that very discouraging and depressing, but it hasn't brought me to supporting Trump. But being very opposed to someone in politics does not always mean you hate them. I simply hate the idea of them being in power again.


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[Irving Washington]

I haven't read the comments, but I do think you have to understand that a lot of non-crazy people are very concerned about another round of the Clintons in the White House. I personally find that very discouraging and depressing, but it hasn't brought me to supporting Trump. But being very opposed to someone in politics does not always mean you hate them. I simply hate the idea of them being in power again.


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Most of the comments were personal. I have to ask myself if I had the same hate for G Dub. Sadly, that's politics now. Harkins back to the Nixon years, when I knew everything.

[LA Ute]

Most of the comments were personal. I have to ask myself if I had the same hate for G Dub. Sadly, that's politics now. Harkins back to the Nixon years, when I knew everything.

Sadly, comments to any news or opinion piece posted on the Internet are pretty poisonous. I avoid them.


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[LA Ute]

Harkins back to the Nixon years, when I knew everything.

I remember those days (1972). I thought then that Nixon was just the greatest president ever.


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[U-Ute]

Here is a plan where the GOP could make it so if you vote for Trump, you're actually voting for a different GOP candidate.

Spoiler alert: it involves arcane electoral college rules, and even includes a way by which Trump gets the popular vote and Pence becomes President and Kaine becomes VP.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/10/how-republicans-could-replace-trump-even-if-he-stays-in-214336

[LA Ute]

Is this kind of political strategy something we think is fine when our side does it, and awful when the other side does it?

Podesta E-mail Suggested Strategy To ‘Elevate’ Long Shot GOP Candidates

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2016/10/09/podesta-e-mail-suggested-strategy-to-elevate-long-shot-gop-candidates/#ixzz4MeBQ9Efu

I'm not asking whether it actually happened or if it was effective.

[Irving Washington]

There was an interesting comment made tonight about the predicate news conference - sometimes you fight a fire with explosives. It probably worked.

[Rocker Ute]

Can't wait for this whole thing to end. I know Sancho wouldn't approve but my 12yo son wanted to watch the debate so we watched it together.

I didn't say anything but after about 30 minutes unprompted he got up in disgusted to leave and said, "Neither ever answers the question and it's always an attack on the other person, not what they are going to do."

Welcome to American politics buddy.


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[NorthwestUteFan]

Trump threatening to jail Clinton if he becomes president is perhaps the most profoundly fascistic statement I have ever heard in American politics.

Trumpollini may in fact be the reincarnation of Il Duce.

[U-Ute]

Is this kind of political strategy something we think is fine when our side does it, and awful when the other side does it?

Podesta E-mail Suggested Strategy To ‘Elevate’ Long Shot GOP Candidates

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2016/10/09/podesta-e-mail-suggested-strategy-to-elevate-long-shot-gop-candidates/#ixzz4MeBQ9Efu

I'm not asking whether it actually happened or if it was effective.

It seems like a standard strategy. Much like Majerus taking away your best player and making your weakest player beat him.

My question is: how do you implement this strategy? It isn't like the Democrats have much control over what the GOP candidates say or do other than only mentioning how crazy the fringe candidates are.

That being said, if the DNC actually accomplished this somehow, it is a massive failure by the RNC to make sure their strongest candidates got the attention they deserved.

[concerned]

Didnt Trump and others do their darndest to promote Bernie? Seems SOP to me.

Also, I dont think it is accurate to say that Clinton did not answer the questions. She took shots at Trump but she gave policy answers on Obamacare, Syria, the tax code, jobs/fossil fuel/climate change, among others. She answered the question about her speeches--the tortured reference to Lincoln and Team of Rivals, whcih was accurate but Trump was more than ready for.

[LA Ute]

Trump threatening to jail Clinton if he becomes president is perhaps the most profoundly fascistic statement I have ever heard in American politics.

Trumpollini may in fact be the reincarnation of Il Duce.

That was stupid. I even gasped when he said it. It's not what you do in a liberal democracy. (Although there were plenty of Dems who wanted to prosecute Bush-era folks after Obama was elected.)

[Rocker Ute]

Kind of interesting. Clinton still outright lies 1/5 of the time http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2016/oct/10/clinton-trump-absolute-avalanche-falsehoods/


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[NorthwestUteFan]

That was stupid. I even gasped when he said it. It's not what you do in a liberal democracy. (Although there were plenty of Dems who wanted to prosecute Bush-era folks after Obama was elected.)
But none of them said it to a political opponent's face, when the election would put the person in a position of authority to do so.

When Nixon tried to get his AG to investigate/prosecute his political enemies, the AG had the moral fiber to resign his office to protect the integrity of the legal system, rather than proceed with a political prosecution.

Of course Ted Cruz is the ultimate loser in this situation. Had this tape leak occurred a year ago, Ted Cruz would be the nominee. I disagree with him on a number of policy issues, but he at least was more grounded in reality and would have been far more reasonable in nearly every way. TheDonald on the other hand comes straight out of the African Dictator handbook.

[Rocker Ute]

Ted Cruz is equally deplorable and has proven already that he knows how to shut down the government. Cruz and Trump were the only two Republican candidates who could have lost to Clinton.


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[UtahsMrSports]

Trumps twitter this morning has been great. He used two tweets to bash on paul ryan, retweeted his son about registering to vote, tweeted something weird about having the shackles off now and being able to fight for america the way he wants to, and then praised the democrats for their loyalty.

I cant wait for his concession speech. "Im suing!!!! Rigged! Lyin Ted! Pocahontas!'

[concerned]

Trumps twitter this morning has been great. He used two tweets to bash on paul ryan, retweeted his son about registering to vote, tweeted something weird about having the shackles off now and being able to fight for america the way he wants to, and then praised the democrats for their loyalty.

I cant wait for his concession speech. "Im suing!!!! Rigged! Lyin Ted! Pocahontas!'\


The Daily Beast Retweeted (https://twitter.com/thedailybeast)


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/693433856863670272/HlTNuxQ6_bigger.jpgPatricia Murphy ‏@1PatriciaMurphy (https://twitter.com/1PatriciaMurphy) 2m2 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/1PatriciaMurphy/status/785856312236204032)
Trump's next Tweet:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cufr1cSXEAIQ1nl.jpg

[NorthwestUteFan]

Is there a possibility that he could actually win at this point? I am not sure, and it is always a risk.

That said, I do not think he should drop out. I think he needs to go into the election and get whipped in historic fashion. I want to see a complete and utter repudiation of everything he stands for.

We are a good nation. We have problems, some are very challenging, but none are insurmountable. We can pull through and move into a brighter future, and to do so will require hard work and cooperation from the smartest statesmen (and women) on the Right and on the Left.

I still believe that John Kasich would win the General Election. But he didn't have a prayer in the Republican primary as they forced candidates to run as far to the right as possible.

[LA Ute]

Ted Cruz is equally deplorable and has proven already that he knows how to shut down the government. Cruz and Trump were the only two Republican candidates who could have lost to Clinton.


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Yes. They were the top two opponents that Clinton wanted to run against.


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[concerned]

Yes. They were the top two opponents that Clinton wanted to run against.


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Clinton preferred to run against Cruz, because she felt his evangelical zeal would have no appeal outside the deep south, where Trump would appeal to working class whites in the rust belt. She also wanted to run against Rubio for the same reasons as Cruz, and because he is a lightweight compared to Cruz.