2016 Presidential Election

[pangloss]

Although Trump still wins even without Wisconsin and Michigan. That's what crazy; it turns out that he didn't even need those states to win the election.

You're right. I was tracking those two and fell into despair when they were lost. Pennsylvania's margin was 68,236. The sum of the margins in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin is still less than Stein got in California.

I don't know why I'm doing this - maybe to keep from screaming.

Paraphrasing Gerald Ford, I'm afraid our long national nightmare has just begun. I hope I'm wrong.

[Scratch]

Except for the fact that the biggest reason Trump won is because he overwhelmingly won uneducated whites and white males. (With the low voter turnout in second place)


But that doesn't mean you can just assume you know the reason that group overwhelmingly voted for him.

[Scratch]

I don't get this "Hillary is completely unacceptable as a presidential candidate" argument. She is probably the most qualified person to ever run for office. It's a weak and lazy argument.


A huge portion did stay home. And that is why Trump won. It wasn't because he fulfills some grandiose dream of Americans. It's because some democrats weren't excited enough to go vote, and the rest thought she would win in a landslide and couldn't bother going to the polls after work.



It doesn't matter if what you say about Hillary is true and she's acceptable and qualified, it doesn't change the fact that huge numbers of people thought she was a horrible, unqualified candidate. I live in an upper middle class area in Southern California and I hear that opinion everywhere. It's not limited to the demographics you're discussing.

As for turnout, why wouldn't the expected Hillary win only keep Hillary supporters from showing up? I think the law turnout for her had a lot more to do with who she is than the perceived inevitability of her victory, because the inevitability argument should cut both ways.

[jrj84105]

When that doesn't happen, does he then blame minorities? That's what one Indian PhD told me she fears.

I sort of get that from a foreign born person, but my biggest question is what has made everybody so damn afraid of everybody else? That everyone who has different views and is outside of our daily sphere of interaction is out to harm us. It's ridiculous. As soon as opinion swings 51% in one direction, the 49% take up the persecuted victim flag. It's like people have forgotten that there's a general sense of fairness in this country. Even the gay marriage thread on this board has people afraid that allowing gays to marry means it's a slippery slope for a straight Christian man to be forced into a life as a transgendered sex slave.

Democrats panicking today sound as stupid as republicans who go out and buy guns and ammo in anticipation of a democratic political victory. Trump will suck, but our system and out people are too good and too aware, and too fair to allow him to suck too badly. And his lack of subtlety will make it a little easier to ensure that American governance isn't deviating too far from the goodness of its people.

Some festering issues are going to be forced to a head during his tenure, but I think we're a resourceful enough people to find solutions. I'm also slightly encouraged by Trump's unconventional route into office that solutions and change and leadership can also come from increasingly unconventional routes.

[Scratch]

Whether the Republican SCOTUS decides to reverse the gay marriage decision will be interesting to watch, as well. That change helped fuel the anger.



Even if Trump nominates a conservative it still won't be a Republican SCOTUS. The 5 who voted for the majority opinion in Obergefell are still there. Indeed, given Scalia's death it's hard to imagine the Court getting more "Republican" than it was when it decided Obergefell, since it's unlikely that Scalia's replacement will out-conservative Scalia. Now, if something happens to Ginsburg, Kennedy, or Breyer in the next few years then it will get interesting, but even though Roberts voted against it I can't see him voting to overturn it. I don't think that's his M.O.

[#1 Utefan]

Things haven't been on slow simmer, they've been getting progressively worse. And there aren't many high profile people in the world of race relations who are in it for anything other than self-aggrandizement it seems, so I don't see a lot of ready candidates for changing the tone.

You seem to see Trump's win as a validation of your own view points; just think about how validated poor uneducated white people who have felt muzzled in respect to racial and ethnic positions feel today. It's going to get real.

And I think you should reconsider your stance in Obama. Outside the office of the president, he will have a lot more room to speak freely. I really hope he doesn't shrink from the opportunity/responsibility to be THE level-headed leader on this issue, because I can't see anyone else stepping up. I think his post-presidential public life will be far more important- and hopefully more effective- than his time in office.

We will have to agree to disagree. I think Obama has been a divisive president, particularly on economic, political, and race issues. His use of executive orders on major issues like immigration where he couldnt get what he wanted from Congress has also been a bad precedent.

I said at the time those cheering him on because they thought it was the right thing to do would rue the day the shoe was on the other foot. Lets just hope Trump doesn't think he can start abusing executive power and bypass congress to create his own laws. I am somewhat concerned that Trump will take a tit for tat stance and think he can now abuse that power.

Could Democrats have won with a more likable candidate than Hillary? Maybe. As I've stated before, however, Trump isn't exactly a likable person himself. He is outside the "establishment" but I think that only partly explains what happened.

Maybe the elections results are a combination of factors. To discount the polarizing affect some of Obama's policies may have had on how some of the electorate discussed in this thread voted, however, is shortsided and naive IMHO.

[USS Utah]

I expected Hillary to win, and was prepared to accept that, even though I don't like or trust her. But I forgot about one important thing: Hillary is not Bill, she does not have his political skills -- Bill is a great speaker, Hillary not so much. She is not a likable as Bill, even after impeachment. Would she ever have been a senator or a top tier cabinet member if not for Bill? Finally, in addition to not getting her base out, from some of the analysis last night, it sounds liker her campaign got complacent in the rust belt. Apparently, Hillary did not even visit Michigan after the DNC convention.

As for Trump, and those who voted for him. Someone posted earlier in this thread that Trump got fewer votes than both Romney and McCain. If true, his victory resulted primarily from the Dems nomination of Hillary, who could not get Obama voters to turn out in like numbers. It has been my impression that many were supporting Trump because he was the anti-Hillary, if only because he was running against her. It was, therefore, taken for granted by many that whatever Hillary was, Trump was not, and whatever Hillary was not, Trump was. This along with people taking it for granted that Trump was a yugely successful businessman. For all his negatives, Trump has one thing no one else in this elections cycle had, star power.

[LA Ute]

I don't buy predictions of any group's demise, especially major political parties. Still, this is another interesting take from the liberal side:

The Democratic Party Establishment Is Finished (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/11/the_democratic_party_establishment_is_finished_aft er_trump.html#)
"The Democrats will now control next to nothing above the municipal level. Donald Trump will be president. We are going to be unpacking this night for the rest of our lives, and lives beyond that. We can’t comprehend even 1 percent of what’s just happened. But one aspect of it, minor in the overall sweep, that I’m pretty sure we can comprehend well enough right now: The Democratic Party establishment has beclowned itself and is finished. . . .

"The party establishment made a grievous mistake rallying around Hillary Clinton. It wasn’t just a lack of recent political seasoning. She was a bad candidate, with no message beyond heckling the opposite sideline. She was a total misfit for both the politics of 2016 and the energy of the Democratic Party as currently constituted. She could not escape her baggage, and she must own that failure herself.

"Theoretically smart people in the Democratic Party should have known that. And yet they worked giddily to clear the field for her. Every power-hungry young Democrat fresh out of law school, every rising lawmaker, every old friend of the Clintons wanted a piece of the action. This was their ride up the power chain. The whole edifice was hollow, built atop the same unearned sense of inevitability that surrounded Clinton in 2008, and it collapsed, just as it collapsed in 2008, only a little later in the calendar. The voters of the party got taken for a ride by the people who controlled it, the ones who promised they had everything figured out and sneeringly dismissed anyone who suggested otherwise. They promised that Hillary Clinton had a lock on the Electoral College. These people didn’t know what they were talking about, and too many of us in the media thought they did."

[U-Ute]

So you conducted a poll? Feel free to share where you got your information if it is an objective source.

Also, 3% is a fairly large number if it sways even 1% of those to vote one way or another.


http://stevenrattner.com/2016/10/morning-joe-charts-explaining-obamacare-premium-hikes/


Nearly half of the population is still insured through their employers and are therefore unaffected by the increases. More than a third of the population receives its medical care through either Medicare or Medicaid and is therefore also unaffected. A small part of the population buys its insurance through the exchanges set up by the Affordable Care Act, but they receive subsidies to insulate them from the costs and the price increases. That leaves less than 3% of Americans who either buy their insurance through the exchanges but don’t receive subsidies or buy it directly from insurance companies. It is this group of about 7-8 million people who may have had to pay higher prices (although some are also paying lower premiums.)

[U-Ute]

As others have suggested, Trump will delegate most work to subordinates. His interest is in feeding his colossal narcissism.

For some reason, I imagined him sitting in the Oval Office doing something like this while his minions are busy around him running the country.

6ldAQ6Rh5ZI

[U-Ute]

Without a Democratic congress or a Democrat in the White House, who will the Republicans blame the upcoming recession on?

[Diehard Ute]

Without a Democratic congress or a Democrat in the White House, who will the Republicans blame the upcoming recession on?

The economy is rigged


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[U-Ute]

The economy is rigged


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You're one of them Takers now ain't ya. You too can be a gazillionaire if you just tried. Just do what Mitt and The Donald did and borrow a couple of million bucks from your dad. Boom. That simple you slacker.

[LA Ute]

Without a Democratic congress or a Democrat in the White House, who will the Republicans blame the upcoming recession on?

Eight years of Obama's mismanagement. That should get them through the first four years, then Donald will be defeated by Chelsea Clinton.

[Ma'ake]

Sometimes you can learn about your own society by looking through the eyes of others.

The brilliant Indian PhD who I spoke with today was particularly disturbed at the rapid peace-making Democrats have made, the wellspring of kind words and best wishes. "Did they forget the things he said? Is this political process you have simply unappealing theatre, not really serious? I'm fortunate to not have the responsibility to vote, because none of these people are sincere. Why would people choose somebody who is so crude, and apparently proud of it? America is very different than I thought, growing up."

She said she and her husband have enjoyed being in the US for their post-doctoral research, especially traveling the west and showing family members our great national parks, etc, but they've decided to no longer pursue residency, and are now looking to relocate to Europe, Singapore, Australia, or even back to India, after their research is published.

EDIT - I got the impression the decision to leave wasn't because Clinton lost, it was probably made earlier this year. They're focused on scientific research and don't really understand the nuances of the American political system. Ie, they're not partisan, just visitors.

Some country is going to get a brilliant, high achieving couple. Congrats to them, up front. The husband, in particular, could end up being a Nobel winner. I'm glad I've been able to work with them.

EDIT2: This if off topic, but another, seriously bright Indian is on track to get her PhD, by age 22. She was attending University of Virginia at age 15. Extremely impressive, exceptionally bright, gracious, etc. She's the child prodigy.

[Devildog]

Sometimes you can learn about your own society by looking through the eyes of others.

The brilliant Indian PhD who I spoke with today was particularly disturbed at the rapid peace-making Democrats have made, the wellspring of kind words and best wishes. "Did they forget the things he said? Is this political process you have simply unappealing theatre, not really serious? I'm fortunate to not have the responsibility to vote, because none of these people are sincere. Why would people choose somebody who is so crude, and apparently proud of it? America is very different than I thought, growing up."

She said she and her husband have enjoyed being in the US for their post-doctoral research, especially traveling the west and showing family members our great national parks, etc, but they've decided to no longer pursue residency, and are now looking to relocate to Europe, Singapore, Australia, or even back to India, after their research is published.

EDIT - I got the impression the decision to leave wasn't because Clinton lost, it was probably made earlier this year. They're focused on scientific research and don't really understand the nuances of the American political system. Ie, they're not partisan, just visitors.

Some country is going to get a brilliant, high achieving couple. Congrats to them, up front. The husband, in particular, could end up being a Nobel winner. I'm glad I've been able to work with them.

I hope the door doesn't hit them in the ass... Bye!

Just kidding but fun to say anyway. This thread has been great today. Complete entertainment. The poster "Utah" has been particularly funny. These posts say more about ourselves and our own ideology than anything else.

In that spirit... I CAN'T STAND ANYMORE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS! Thank God this political indoctrination soviet style can take a fuckin' rest. **** these safe spaces and sensitive whiny bitches. This nation needs to recover some balls. Man the **** up! Especially you... "Utah" Jesus Christ, what a ******* baby you are. You are projecting man. The racist, sexist tags you throw around and blame on the nation... how old are you? My 20 year old U.S. Marine son has double your damn common sense... You seem crazy as a shit house rat to me (I'm not sure that I blame you because it's what you've been taught). But damn...don't buy in to this ridiculous crap, especially to this degree stupid. You still gotta lot to learn son.

[Ma'ake]

I read this morning that Lee cast his ballot for McMullin as a "protest vote." I doubt Trump nominates a guy for SCOTUS that openly admits to voting 3rd party against him.

I could see Trump being calmly urged to nominate Lee because he'd be a strong conservative voice on the SCOTUS, and Donald grumblingly going along with it - we're still in the honeymoon, after all - only to later have Lee rule against the Trump University suit on some arcane point, and Trump going on a full scale assault in the early hours of the morning on Twitter, accusing him of having a fat wife with too many kids, "low quality sex that is making Mike too uptight to think clearly".

"If Mike & the others at SCOTUS would legalize polygamy, he could get a young hottie wife to service him, with Wife #1 sitting on his face so he can't escape. HELP MIKE NOT BE SO STUPID AT COURT - LEGALIZE POLYGAMY"

(I wonder how much a Trump Twitter Ghost Writer position would pay?)

[Rocker Ute]

Without a Democratic congress or a Democrat in the White House, who will the Republicans blame the upcoming recession on?

When these sort of questions come up you just have to ask yourself "WWOD." What would Obama do? Blame the previous administration for 8 years.


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[#1 Utefan]

I don't disagree, but he's going to be really irritated when his supporters call him on how he promised a whole bunch of specific points of progress, within a short amount of time, and how it's going to make America better than ever before.

When that doesn't happen, does he then blame minorities? That's what one Indian PhD told me she fears.

Interesting. I've worked with several Indian Ph.Ds in my industry over the years and most of them have been pro-business Republicans. My current boss is of Indian descent. She liked Hillary but both her parents who are from India and retired physicians supported Trump.

It is great to throw out examples of one couple that happen to be minorities and disillusioned with Trump and American politics. The point I'm making is that just because someone is a minority does not mean they are automatically in the liberal camp and threatened by Donald Trump.

[#1 Utefan]

When these sort of questions come up you just have to ask yourself "WWOD." What would Obama do? Blame the previous administration for 8 years.


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You nailed it. The Obama blame and deflect model should work long enough to get Trump to a second term before he wears out his welcome with the electorate.

[Devildog]

You dorks remind me of the Big Bang Theory discussing politics...

Nobody gives a shit about your phd's except your little clique here. You completely miss the point of any external point of view... you dorks. It's why you don't understand what is happening around you... that's what makes it funny. Let's keep it simple for you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcxXR5GFXYE

[Rocker Ute]

You dorks remind me of the Big Bang Theory discussing politics...

Nobody gives a shit about your phd's except your little clique here. You completely miss the point of any external point of view... you dorks. It's why you don't understand what is happening around you... that's what makes it funny. Let's keep it simple for you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcxXR5GFXYE

...Uneducated angry white males you say?...


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[Devildog]

...Uneducated angry white males you say?...


Whatever Sheldon. You are like the lead dork. Are you an engineer? Maybe you are Howard. Either way you lost this election HUGE! The censorship here be damned.... Your candidate got smoked by people sick of being told what to think and how they are expected to conduct themselves. I love the outsider blowing the roof off this bullshit! I am so sick and tired of the political correctness that permeates our society.

[chrisrenrut]

Whatever Sheldon. You are like the lead dork. Are you an engineer? Maybe you are Howard. Either way you lost this election HUGE! The censorship here be damned.... Your candidate got smoked by people sick of being told what to think and how they are expected to conduct themselves. I love the outsider blowing the roof off this bullshit! I am so sick and tired of the political correctness that permeates our society.

Censorship? I'm curious when and how has that happened here?

[Devildog]

Censorship? I'm curious when and how has that happened here?

Ask LA Ute... the bishopric around here hates the f word. Anyway, you asked for it, and you got it. Last edited by LA Ute.

[Solon]

Ask LA Ute... the bishopric around here hates the f word. Anyway, you asked for it, and you got it. Last edited by LA Ute.

Knock it off, devildog.
Enjoy your victory lap but lay off the personal attacks.

We moderate with a light touch around here, but it's a touch nonetheless.

[Mormon Red Death]

the biggest killer to Hillary that no one talks about health-care premiums. the aca has raised premiums by double the last 2 years. when it came down to it people voted with their wallet

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[LA Ute]

the biggest killer to Hillary that no one talks about health-care premiums. the aca has raised premiums by double the last 2 years. when it came down to it people voted with their wallet

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I think this is true. I wonder what the polling data will show.


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[LA Ute]

Ask LA Ute... the bishopric around here hates the f word. Anyway, you asked for it, and you got it. Last edited by LA Ute.

Aw, DD, we like your point of view. Stick around. We need balance -- too many squishy liberals around here. Just avoid those F-bombs. They're freaking offensive! 😉


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[jrj84105]

Rather than representing a center-right victory as proposed earlier, I think the Trump victory confirms the horseshoe model, and effectively shows how trump closed the loop.
2013

[jrj84105]

The result- Romney republicans and Clinton Dems have been marginalized by a new coalition of people disaffected both by government inefficiency/mismanagement and malfeasance/collusion of the global markets. The bigger issue- governmental chaos and an economic downturn will only enrich the Trump base.

[Ma'ake]

(I had a post written where I was going to out-Devildog Devildog, but after looking it over, it's too disgusting, even as satire.)

One unexpected result of Utah supporting Trump is having to reign in children bullying other children, made legitimate by their parents electing an accomplished bully.

Yesterday a TV station worker from Fox 13 had his kindergartner confronted by other kindergartners, who told him he'd soon be going to a different school, in a different country.

Today's story is about high-schoolers getting harassed and being told they'll be happier back in Mexico.

Yesterday's newscast you could see the repressed jubilation in the anchors about Clinton and her supporters being vanquished.

These stories have the anchors a little more subdued. "Hmmm... some tough times for some kids".

I think we could start to see more kids bringing guns to school, which would eliminate the bullying, immediately. Which way the NRA falls on that issue, remains to be seen.

[LA Ute]

This piece makes an interesting case for the proposition that Trump resulted from the failure of both major parties.

The Spectacular Institutional Failure of the Democratic Party

http://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/11/09/the-spectacular-institutional-failure-of-the-democratic-party/




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[pangloss]

The Southern Poverty Law Center supports political correctness. They're good at it. I give them money which makes me feel good.

Apparently, some folks think the election gives them sanction to overtly express their opposition to political correctness.

Here's a report from the SPLC on some of the less-pleasant reactions to the election. https://medium.com/@seanokane/day-1-in-trumps-america-9e4d58381001#.q79cja7lx

A couple examples they cite of post election actions, some worse than others, that are not politically correct include:

- A swastika and the words “MAKE AMERICA WHITE AGAIN” were spray painted on a baseball dugout in Wellsville, NY

- University of Louisiana at Lafayette received a report that a female UL Lafayette student was attacked and robbed by two brave males, one wearing a Trump hat. Her wallet and hijab were stolen.

- A swastika and the words “Seig Heil 2016” were spray painted on a storefront in South Philadelphia.

- At the NYU Tandon School of Engineering, Muslim students found "Trump" scrawled on the door of their prayer room.

This post is intended to elicit a response from the resident anti-PC poster.

Cheers.

[#1 Utefan]

(I had a post written where I was going to out-Devildog Devildog, but after looking it over, it's too disgusting, even as satire.)

One unexpected result of Utah supporting Trump is having to reign in children bullying other children, made legitimate by their parents electing an accomplished bully.

Yesterday a TV station worker from Fox 13 had his kindergartner confronted by other kindergartners, who told him he'd soon be going to a different school, in a different country.

Today's story is about high-schoolers getting harassed and being told they'll be happier back in Mexico.

Yesterday's newscast you could see the repressed jubilation in the anchors about Clinton and her supporters being vanquished.

These stories have the anchors a little more subdued. "Hmmm... some tough times for some kids".

I think we could start to see more kids bringing guns to school, which would eliminate the bullying, immediately. Which way the NRA falls on that issue, remains to be seen.

A lot of passive aggressive doom and gloom in your posts. Most of this will blowover as the reality Trump is the new president settles.

Remember, there were many of us pretty depressed after Obama won a 2nd term. We had/have legitimate concerns about many of his policies and the untenable debt situation he has more than doubled in 8 years. Texas was even talking about leaving the union ala some of the tech idiots in California now.

Trump is admittedly a bit of a wild card at this point but there is way too much overreacting going on all over the country right now. We are a democracy and he won the election. People need to settle down, accept the result, and give him a chance. The US will survive and life goes on.

[UtahsMrSports]

The Southern Poverty Law Center supports political correctness. They're good at it. I give them money which makes me feel good.

Apparently, some folks think the election gives them sanction to overtly express their opposition to political correctness.

Here's a report from the SPLC on some of the less-pleasant reactions to the election. https://medium.com/@seanokane/day-1-in-trumps-america-9e4d58381001#.q79cja7lx

A couple examples they cite of post election actions, some worse than others, that are not politically correct include:

- A swastika and the words “MAKE AMERICA WHITE AGAIN” were spray painted on a baseball dugout in Wellsville, NY

- University of Louisiana at Lafayette received a report that a female UL Lafayette student was attacked and robbed by two brave males, one wearing a Trump hat. Her wallet and hijab were stolen.

- A swastika and the words “Seig Heil 2016” were spray painted on a storefront in South Philadelphia.

- At the NYU Tandon School of Engineering, Muslim students found "Trump" scrawled on the door of their prayer room.

This post is intended to elicit a response from the resident anti-PC poster.

Cheers.

How much of this is real genuine hate and bigotry, and how much is thrill seeking from bored people whose brains have yet to fully develop with or without the aid of alcohol? I tend to believe that a lot of this is flavor of the week thrill seeking.

[sancho]

This post is intended to elicit a response from the resident anti-PC poster.

Cheers.

I think you and I might disagree on the definition of political correctness. I think the things you mention go quite a ways beyond political correctness and enter arenas of crime, indecency, bullying, meanness, and racism.

[pangloss]

This piece makes an interesting case for the proposition that Trump resulted from he failure of both major parties.

The Spectacular Institutional Failure of the Democratic Party

http://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/11/09/the-spectacular-institutional-failure-of-the-democratic-party/

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There's been a lot of articles and will be many more about the greater meaning of the election. I don't think there's some grand shift in the country's psyche. The outcome was determined by fairly insignificant things.

For example, the Democratic Party's Get Out the Vote effort was relatively ineffective in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. If the party's GOTV had been just a little better in Flint, Philadelphia and Madison then Clinton would have won and the story would be much different. Some times seemingly small, mundane actions can have profound and catastrophic results.

[pangloss]

I think you and I might disagree on the definition of political correctness. I think the things you mention go quite a ways beyond political correctness and enter arenas of crime, indecency, bullying, meanness, and racism.

I'm glad you write that the examples are beyond 'political correctness'. Maybe it's a spectrum.

I've always thought it was dopey to criticize someone for advocating civil, polite discourse -- that's on one end of the PC spectrum, right?

[pangloss]

How much of this is real genuine hate and bigotry, and how much is thrill seeking from bored people whose brains have yet to fully develop with or without the aid of alcohol? I tend to believe that a lot of this is flavor of the week thrill seeking.I hope you're right and this crap stops.

[LA Ute]

The Southern Poverty Law Center supports political correctness. They're good at it. I give them money which makes me feel good.

Apparently, some folks think the election gives them sanction to overtly express their opposition to political correctness.

Here's a report from the SPLC on some of the less-pleasant reactions to the election. https://medium.com/@seanokane/day-1-in-trumps-america-9e4d58381001#.q79cja7lx

A couple examples they cite of post election actions, some worse than others, that are not politically correct include:

- A swastika and the words “MAKE AMERICA WHITE AGAIN” were spray painted on a baseball dugout in Wellsville, NY

- University of Louisiana at Lafayette received a report that a female UL Lafayette student was attacked and robbed by two brave males, one wearing a Trump hat. Her wallet and hijab were stolen.

- A swastika and the words “Seig Heil 2016” were spray painted on a storefront in South Philadelphia.

- At the NYU Tandon School of Engineering, Muslim students found "Trump" scrawled on the door of their prayer room.

This post is intended to elicit a response from the resident anti-PC poster.

Cheers.

I am pretty sure you're not talking about me, but I will just point out that decent people who are concerned about political correctness abhor the stuff you're talking about. What concerns people like me is the extraordinary and excessive level of PC on college campuses around the country. For example, not allowing conservative speakers on campus, or setting up safe rooms where students can go and play with play-doh and color with crayons while the speaker is on campus.


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[pangloss]

A lot of passive aggressive doom and gloom in your posts. Most of this will blowover as the reality Trump is the new president settles.

Remember, there were many of us pretty depressed after Obama won a 2nd term. We had/have legitimate concerns about many of his policies and the untenable debt situation he has more than doubled in 8 years. Texas was even talking about leaving the union ala some of the tech idiots in California now.

Trump is admittedly a bit of a wild card at this point but there is way too much overreacting going on all over the country right now. We are a democracy and he won the election. People need to settle down, accept the result, and give him a chance. The US will survive and life goes on.

Guilty as charged, I'm feeling some doom & gloom. The fact that you & many others were depressed after President Obama won reelection does not make me more optimistic about the country's future. And just to stoke your concern, take a look at Trump's fiscal plans (passive enough?). I hope you're right and there's been 'too much overreacting going on'. Maybe Trump's promises were insincere and he has no intention of actually doing the more asinine things. Let's hope so.

[pangloss]

I am pretty sure you're not talking about me, but I will just point out that decent people who are concerned about political correctness abhor the stuff you're talking about. What concerns people like me is the extraordinary and excessive level of PC on college campuses around the country. For example, not allowing conservative speakers on campus, or setting up safe rooms where students can go and play with play-doh and color with crayons while the speaker is on campus.
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You're right, absolutely not aimed at you. And I fully agree with your attitude that it's stupid to limit the full expression of attitudes on college campuses. Stopping 'micro aggression', or whatever its called, is silly. If that's PC, then I'm anti PC. Maybe I'm wrong, but the militant anti PC folks sound a lot like bigots. Again, maybe it's a spectrum.

[Sullyute]

There's been a lot of articles and will be many more about the greater meaning of the election. I don't think there's some grand shift in the country's psyche. The outcome was determined by fairly insignificant things.

For example, the Democratic Party's Get Out the Vote effort was relatively ineffective in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. If the party's GOTV had been just a little better in Flint, Philadelphia and Madison then Clinton would have won and the story would be much different. Some times seemingly small, mundane actions can have profound and catastrophic results.

The Clinton election committee told the Philly team that they needed 400,000 democrat votes out of the city. They got over 450,000. The state elected the first democrat AG in decades. The senate race in Pennsylvania was the most expensive in US history with over $100 million spent. Clinton spent tons of time in PA along with Obama, Springsteen, Bon Jovi, etc. So there was tons of money spent in PA. Trump just resonated with a lot of people out here.

[Sullyute]

Trump is admittedly a bit of a wild card at this point but there is way too much overreacting going on all over the country right now. We are a democracy and he won the election. People need to settle down, accept the result, and give him a chance. The US will survive and life goes on.

A wild card?! talk about an understatement. I thought with 36 hours after the election I would be feeling better, but I am worse. This has nothing to do with Democrat vs Republican. I have voted for both in the past and neither this election. I would have been fine with Clinton, Bush, Rubio, Kaisch, even Cruz (gag), but I am absolutely scared at the idea of someone as crazy as Trump being the most powerful person in the world.

[pangloss]

The Clinton election committee told the Philly team that they needed 400,000 democrat votes out of the city. They got over 450,000. The state elected the first democrat AG in decades. The senate race in Pennsylvania was the most expensive in US history with over $100 million spent. Clinton spent tons of time in PA along with Obama, Springsteen, Bon Jovi, etc. So there was tons of money spent in PA. Trump just resonated with a lot of people out here.
Yea, I know the unsuccessful Demo GOTV wasn't for the lack of spending money.

I wrote the post based on a newscast and it is incorrect vis-a-vis Philadelphia. I looked at the numbers and learned that in Delaware and Philadelphia counties, Clinton did better than Obama. The state went for Trump by about 70,000 votes, about 1.2% I was surprised to see he got nearly 300,000 more votes than Romney.

My simple explanation is wrong, I'll try to do better.

[Two Utes]

Ask LA Ute... the bishopric around here hates the f word. Anyway, you asked for it, and you got it. Last edited by LA Ute.

This is Moose.

[Two Utes]

I am pretty sure you're not talking about me, but I will just point out that decent people who are concerned about political correctness abhor the stuff you're talking about. What concerns people like me is the extraordinary and excessive level of PC on college campuses around the country. For example, not allowing conservative speakers on campus, or setting up safe rooms where students can go and play with play-doh and color with crayons while the speaker is on campus.


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Count me in as another person absolutely disgusted by college campuses these days. In our days we had a go at each other. we shared ideas and we disagreed, a lot. And some people didn't like me. And I didn't like some other people that much. And no one really cared.

[Devildog]

The Southern Poverty Law Center supports political correctness. They're good at it. I give them money which makes me feel good.

Apparently, some folks think the election gives them sanction to overtly express their opposition to political correctness.

Here's a report from the SPLC on some of the less-pleasant reactions to the election. https://medium.com/@seanokane/day-1-in-trumps-america-9e4d58381001#.q79cja7lx

A couple examples they cite of post election actions, some worse than others, that are not politically correct include:

- A swastika and the words “MAKE AMERICA WHITE AGAIN” were spray painted on a baseball dugout in Wellsville, NY

- University of Louisiana at Lafayette received a report that a female UL Lafayette student was attacked and robbed by two brave males, one wearing a Trump hat. Her wallet and hijab were stolen.

- A swastika and the words “Seig Heil 2016” were spray painted on a storefront in South Philadelphia.

- At the NYU Tandon School of Engineering, Muslim students found "Trump" scrawled on the door of their prayer room.

This post is intended to elicit a response from the resident anti-PC poster.

Cheers.

Is the BLM movement any better? Hillary was a champion of their cause. Racists suck.

[Devildog]

This is Moose.

No it's not... don't be dumb.

[Rocker Ute]

Being PC or politically correct... I think it was always meant as a derisive term because it was saying, "You are adjusting what you are saying because it is politically expedient."

So I am anti-PC but I am pro compassion and awareness. If you are adjusting what you say and do because of outside pressure then you don't get it. If you are adjusting what you say or do because you are aware of issues and have compassion, then you are doing it for the right reasons.

I know this is semantics, but just wanted to point out that everybody should be anti-PC at its original definition.

[LA Ute]

An interesting view that I find mostly convincing:

Trump Won Because Leftist Political Correctness Inspired a Terrifying Backlash

What every liberal who didn't see this coming needs to understand

http://reason.com/blog/2016/11/09/trump-won-because-leftist-political-corr


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[Utah]

Calling almost half the electorate racists and sexists seem quite stereotypical, self serving and irresponsible to me.

Maybe in a few weeks when you're emotions have settled some, you will realize that most of his supporters just weren't happy with the status quote and voted for change.

Again, I didn't vote for Trump and don't know if the change he will bring is what they are looking for or will be good for the country. Time will tell.

I didn't call half the electorate racist and sexist. I called those who listened to Trump talked and became enthused by his agenda sexist and racist. Big difference.

As far as status quo goes, bullshit. Everyone was fine with the status quo. Look at the rest of the elections. Pretty much every single incumbent was re-elected. That's not voting for change.

[sancho]

An interesting view that I find mostly convincing:

Trump Won Because Leftist Political Correctness Inspired a Terrifying Backlash

What every liberal who didn't see this coming needs to understand


Hey, that guy stole my "boy who cried wolf" post from yesterday!

[Devildog]

An interesting view that I find mostly convincing:

Trump Won Because Leftist Political Correctness Inspired a Terrifying Backlash

What every liberal who didn't see this coming needs to understand

http://reason.com/blog/2016/11/09/trump-won-because-leftist-political-corr


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I finally agree with something you posted.

[Sullyute]

I didn't call half the electorate racist and sexist. I called those who listened to Trump talked and became enthused by his agenda sexist and racist. Big difference.

As far as status quo goes, bullshit. Everyone was fine with the status quo. Look at the rest of the elections. Pretty much every single incumbent was re-elected. That's not voting for change.

That is people thinking that their $hit does stink. People think that their representative or senator is not the problem in Washington. It is everyone else's elected official that is the problem. As they say, 'all politics is local'.

[LA Ute]

I like this too. Pretty much agree with all of it. (Sorry, DD!)

What Comes Next for Never Trump

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/442088/never-trump-movement-future-trump-presidency



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[Devildog]

I like this too. Pretty much agree with all of it. (Sorry, DD!)

What Comes Next for Never Trump

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/442088/never-trump-movement-future-trump-presidency



Well LA... you've been completely wrong about everything else this election cycle... so no need to apologize to me about your wrong thinking... again. Apologist Repubs are the absolute worst. Just be thankful the Supreme Court will be added to by Trump and not Hillary.

[LA Ute]

Well LA... you've been completely wrong about everything else this election cycle... so no need to apologize to me about your wrong thinking... again. Apologist Repubs are the absolute worst. Just be thankful the Supreme Court will be added to by Trump and not Hillary.

I acknowledge my wrong-ness. Super-delighted about the Supreme Court. That was the one reason I accepted for voting Trump (even though I didn't).


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[sancho]

I acknowledge my wrong-ness. Super-delighted about the Supreme Court. That was the one reason I accepted for voting Trump (even though I didn't).


It's a shame trump alienated all the cool celebrities during the campaign. It would be cool to have some non-lawyer celebs on the court.

[Devildog]

I love that the libs around here have been posting about the demise of the Republican party and how it will be necessary for survival to rebuild from the ground up...

In spite of the fact that the Republicans now control The White House, the Senate, The House, The Supreme Court, a majority of State Governor-ships and Legislators.... Obviously the Republicans have work to do.

We "deplorable's" now seem to be in charge... huh.

[#1 Utefan]

Guilty as charged, I'm feeling some doom & gloom. The fact that you & many others were depressed after President Obama won reelection does not make me more optimistic about the country's future. And just to stoke your concern, take a look at Trump's fiscal plans (passive enough?). I hope you're right and there's been 'too much overreacting going on'. Maybe Trump's promises were insincere and he has no intention of actually doing the more asinine things. Let's hope so.

In case you were wondering, I didn't vote for Trump (or Hillary). I'm just pointing out the fact to some of you that even though many of you were happy with Obama and the direction he took the country, many in this country weren't/aren't.

Trump is clearly controversial and I can see why some are concerned. That is the reason I voted 3rd party. However, is it really that you are that scared of Trump or is it the prospect that he may overturn Obamacare and some of the controversial things the Obama administration implemented (executive orders to create law without Congress) that you happen to agree with?

Just understand that this country is split politically. The disappointment and fear of what policies or direction the country may be taken in the wake of an election is a two way street depending on what side of the aisle you stand on.

I would have preferred almost any Republican over Trump as President (I consider Trump more of a populist than a Republican). With that said, he was lawfully elected and I will give him a chance to see if he tones it down and works to at least try to heal some wounds and bring the country more together. I just think all these over the top protests and whining from the left wing is a bit much. Nut up and accept it.

[Scratch]

I love that the libs around here have been posting about the demise of the Republican party and how it will be necessary for survival to rebuild from the ground up...

In spite of the fact that the Republicans now control The White House, the Senate, The House, The Supreme Court, a majority of State Governor-ships and Legislators.... Obviously the Republicans have work to do.

We "deplorable's" now seem to be in charge... huh.

One minor comment, Republicans certainly do not control the Supreme Court, nor will they when Trump's nominee joins. Kennedy may have been appointed by Reagan, but he is far from complying with what Republicans would like. The Court certainly isn't "controlled" by Republicans.

[LA Ute]

Hey, isn't there a football game or something in about three hours?

[LA Ute]

OK, I laughed.

http://babylonbee.com/news/police-calm-millennial-protesters-handing-participation-trophies/

[USS Utah]

I hope the door doesn't hit them in the ass... Bye!

Just kidding but fun to say anyway. This thread has been great today. Complete entertainment. The poster "Utah" has been particularly funny. These posts say more about ourselves and our own ideology than anything else.

In that spirit... I CAN'T STAND ANYMORE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS! Thank God this political indoctrination soviet style can take a fuckin' rest. **** these safe spaces and sensitive whiny bitches. This nation needs to recover some balls. Man the **** up! Especially you... "Utah" Jesus Christ, what a ******* baby you are. You are projecting man. The racist, sexist tags you throw around and blame on the nation... how old are you? My 20 year old U.S. Marine son has double your damn common sense... You seem crazy as a shit house rat to me (I'm not sure that I blame you because it's what you've been taught). But damn...don't buy in to this ridiculous crap, especially to this degree stupid. You still gotta lot to learn son.

Forget Political Correctness and bring back common decency. We should not throw out the latter in our effort to get rid of the former.

[USS Utah]

Ask LA Ute... the bishopric around here hates the f word. Anyway, you asked for it, and you got it. Last edited by LA Ute.

I don't know about the managers of this group, but at my history group I want a family friendly environment for the simple fact the my member's kids might actually read some of the hopefully informative content.

Not wanting R rated content is not political correctness. If you think it is, you need more information.

[mUUser]

Count me in as another person absolutely disgusted by college campuses these days. In our days we had a go at each other. we shared ideas and we disagreed, a lot. And some people didn't like me. And I didn't like some other people that much. And no one really cared.

From across our nations campuses.

http://college.usatoday.com/2016/11/09/this-is-the-mood-on-campus-after-trumps-stunning-win/

[USS Utah]

I think you and I might disagree on the definition of political correctness. I think the things you mention go quite a ways beyond political correctness and enter arenas of crime, indecency, bullying, meanness, and racism.

At the very least they qualify as indecent and should be discouraged on that merit alone.

[USS Utah]

You're right, absolutely not aimed at you. And I fully agree with your attitude that it's stupid to limit the full expression of attitudes on college campuses. Stopping 'micro aggression', or whatever its called, is silly. If that's PC, then I'm anti PC. Maybe I'm wrong, but the militant anti PC folks sound a lot like bigots. Again, maybe it's a spectrum.

My take on political correctness is that it differs from the rules of logic in a significant way. The rules of logic define ad hominem attack as a fallacy. Accordingly, I can make arguments as long as I do not attack other arguers. It seems to me that, at least with some PC folks, I am not allowed to make at least some arguments or ask certain questions. Common decency, to me, only demands that I be respectful of others as I make my arguments.

[#1 Utefan]

From across our nations campuses.

http://college.usatoday.com/2016/11/09/this-is-the-mood-on-campus-after-trumps-stunning-win/

Good grief. These college students are so soft and clueless.

How is this upcoming generation ever going to learn that life isn't always fair and that you have to learn to accept differing viewpoints whether you like or agree with them or not? Seriously, reading through those comments makes me fear for this countries future.

[USS Utah]

I acknowledge my wrong-ness. Super-delighted about the Supreme Court. That was the one reason I accepted for voting Trump (even though I didn't).


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Explain to me why this guy who used to be a liberal Democrat, who said nice things about the Clintons and gave them money, is surely going to nominate conservatives to the Supreme Court just because he decided to run as a Republican, because I'm just not getting it.

[mUUser]

.....setting up safe rooms where students can go and play with play-doh and color with crayons while the speaker is on campus......


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Penn set up "safe spaces" with puppies, coloring books and chocolate to console their students on yesterdays election.

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/29898/



My freshman daughter got an email/text from one of her sorority sisters that had arranged for a safe space in a classroom today for consoling each other. She also said they had family homes lined up for anyone that feels "scared and endangered" and needs a comforting place to grieve. She's like WTH?????

[USS Utah]

Equal time:

http://kutv.com/news/nation-world/you-voted-trump-beating-video-goes-viral-chicago-pd-looking-for-assailants

[Devildog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfgXpg4bxIE

[Rocker Ute]

A few years back I was getting my hair cut where I always do by this Korean lady. Often her very old mother is there and she just sits there. I didn't think she spoke English. She also had a teenaged daughter who was there frequently.

That say the teenaged daughter was having a fit about something. She go in the back screaming and crying and then come out and yell about how "it is so unfair!"

This went on for a minute until the daughter came out, sat in a chair and was sulking in tears and muttering to herself about how awful her life was.

The grandma stirred and said, "During the war we didn't have any food, so we ate our belts for meat."

The teenaged girl ashamed storms out in silence, the mom (cutting my hair) has a smirk on her face and I had tears down my face from laughter. It was the greatest thing I've ever seen.

Idiot college kids who need to be comforted because they had a bad day. None of us know what a bad day like that is like.



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[USS Utah]

A few years back I was getting my hair cut where I always do by this Korean lady. Often her very old mother is there and she just sits there. I didn't think she spoke English. She also had a teenaged daughter who was there frequently.

That say the teenaged daughter was having a fit about something. She go in the back screaming and crying and then come out and yell about how "it is so unfair!"

This went on for a minute until the daughter came out, sat in a chair and was sulking in tears and muttering to herself about how awful her life was.

The grandma stirred and said, "During the war we didn't have any food, so we ate our belts for meat."

The teenaged girl ashamed storms out in silence, the mom (cutting my hair) has a smirk on her face and I had tears down my face from laughter. It was the greatest thing I've ever seen.

Idiot college kids who need to be comforted because they had a bad day. None of us know what a bad day like that is like.



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One of the reasons on love reading history: I can always find people who had it worse than me.

[LA Ute]

Explain to me why this guy who used to be a liberal Democrat, who said nice things about the Clintons and gave them money, is surely going to nominate conservatives to the Supreme Court just because he decided to run as a Republican, because I'm just not getting it.

I said I am super-delighted about the Supreme Court because with him there is at least a decent chance he'll appoint originalists like Scalia. With HRC there was no chance, zero, zilch, nada. He issued a list of 20 people from which he'd pick his appointees. I've chosen to believe him until he breaks that promise. He's not stupid so I don't think he will. But we will have to wait and see. We will have to do that about many things, because I don't think even Trump knows what he believes about many issues.

[Rocker Ute]

Vandals painted this on my church last night. The irony of protesting a scumbag by being a scumbag is not lost on me:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161111/760227c5788b5b870e71196066b8982a.jpg


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[Irving Washington]

OK, I laughed.

http://babylonbee.com/news/police-calm-millennial-protesters-handing-participation-trophies/
Excellent find! Sadly, it took me a minute to be certain that it was a joke.

[Diehard Ute]

It's interesting to see the reaction of Trump supporters to the protests.

Now I'm not a protest person, but I will always support someone's right to protest. That all being said it's funny how people get upset when people protest something and they don't agree with it.

From Trump's twitter account:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161111/6aa90ab6eb9add825f58e1bf1e34fb8c.png


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[Rocker Ute]

People can protest all they want, but just don't be kicking in windows of businesses while wearing Nikes or vandalizing my church. I think I'm going to go hang a sign by the vandalism that says, "We are sorry you are sad. This is a safe space. Below is a box with some stuffed animals, coloring books and chocolate so you can decompress." And then putting a box out like that.

[Diehard Ute]

People can protest all they want, but just don't be kicking in windows of businesses while wearing Nikes or vandalizing my church. I think I'm going to go hang a sign by the vandalism that says, "We are sorry you are sad. This is a safe space. Below is a box with some stuffed animals, coloring books and chocolate so you can decompress." And then putting a box out like that.

I think now days, with most any protest, there are people who use said protest simply as a cover to break the law and damage property.

There are also usually a small group of "hardcore" people who are far more on the fringe who go overboard. It's unfortunate. And sadly it's usually difficult to police.


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[pangloss]

I said I am super-delighted about the Supreme Court because with him there is at least a decent chance he'll appoint originalists like Scalia. With HRC there was no chance, zero, zilch, nada. He issued a list of 20 people from which he'd pick his appointees. I've chosen to believe him until he breaks that promise. He's not stupid so I don't think he will. But we will have to wait and see. We will have to do that about many things, because I don't think even Trump knows what he believes about many issues.Do you hope he doesn't break all his promises or just the SCOTUS appointments? How about blowing up the fiscal status. Do you hope he keeps his promise to increase spending and implement a flat tax? How about NATO, he said the organization was obsolete. The list is too long to keep going, I'm already depressed.

Anyway, I read quite a few folks rationalize their vote for Trump (not you, but others) on the SCOTUS openings, a remarkably narrow focus in my humiliated opinion.

[NorthwestUteFan]

One potentially bright note is the degree to which Trump speaks about rebuilding infrastructure. We already spend hundreds of billions of dollars rebuilding infrastructure, and yet that is still just a drop in the bucket compared to what we need.

As with everything, the devil is in the details. But there is potential there. We still have thousands of crumbling bridges and overpasses, bad roads, etc.

[Ma'ake]

Explain to me why this guy who used to be a liberal Democrat, who said nice things about the Clintons and gave them money, is surely going to nominate conservatives to the Supreme Court just because he decided to run as a Republican, because I'm just not getting it.

Based on Trump's body language on the brief clips of he and Obama meeting and arranging the transition, he seems completely out of his element. Many of his supporters are probably confused, too, at him saying Obama is a great man.

But as Trump is getting his bearings on what a president is supposed to do and not do, and say / not say, there's a rapid rush of establishment Republicans and right-leaning DC lobbyists to guide him.

This applies to the SCOTUS nominees, as well. Trump likely has no idea - or curiosity - about what an originalist is, or a contextualist, or really, how many amendments are in the Constitution. But there are plenty of handlers to help him make decisions.

I think that's what LA is seeing. Trump vanquished the Clintons, and has (largely) served his purpose. It would be best for everyone if he gives up Twitter and doesn't watch the news.

I'm glad the Clintons are history, too.

Now is a good time for me to detox from the news and politics.

[pangloss]

In case you were wondering, I didn't vote for Trump (or Hillary). I'm just pointing out the fact to some of you that even though many of you were happy with Obama and the direction he took the country, many in this country weren't/aren't.

Trump is clearly controversial and I can see why some are concerned. That is the reason I voted 3rd party. However, is it really that you are that scared of Trump or is it the prospect that he may overturn Obamacare and some of the controversial things the Obama administration implemented (executive orders to create law without Congress) that you happen to agree with?

Just understand that this country is split politically. The disappointment and fear of what policies or direction the country may be taken in the wake of an election is a two way street depending on what side of the aisle you stand on.

I would have preferred almost any Republican over Trump as President (I consider Trump more of a populist than a Republican). With that said, he was lawfully elected and I will give him a chance to see if he tones it down and works to at least try to heal some wounds and bring the country more together. I just think all these over the top protests and whining from the left wing is a bit much. Nut up and accept it.Not voting for Trump won't let you off the hook if he does the asinine things he promised and the economy, society and government are wrecked. A protest vote just doesn't cut it. If you thought Trump was a dangerous demagogue and didn't vote for Clinton, you are partially culpable in my mind. Opposition to Trump was a moral duty - just to calibrate you on my beliefs.

An awful lot of the folks that are unhappy 'with Obama and the direction he took the country' can't seem to cite specifics. I won't speculate on the cause.

Yes, I'm sick that Trump will dismantle the progress President Obama implemented. A couple examples, if you believe that climate change is an existential threat, l do, then Trump's win is profoundly awful - Paris Agreement on greenhouse gases, EPA regulations on a host of toxins and industrial pollutants, and the Clean Power Plan were all on Trump's hit list at one time or another. His denial that the problems exist doesn't give me any solace. If you think Trump has a different approach to address those issues, fine, I didn't hear him address those alternatives, he just pledged to undo Obama's executive orders. If you don't think those are critically important issues, we don't have much to talk about since we can't even agree on scientific facts.

How about trade? In my macro economics class I learned that free trade is good for both countries. Thinking Republicans have supported free trade since Smoot-Haley (look it up if you don't know the reference). Trump called NAFTA the worst trade deal in history and promised to dismantle it and TPP. His protectionist speech should scare the hell out of you. It's profoundly stupid and a threat to the world's economic health.

Let me briefly remind you of the reaction to President Obama's election eight years ago. The tea party astro-turf groups were formed with funding & guidance from far right billionaires. They had protests with vile racist posters. Senator McConnell pledged to stop everything President Obama tried to do and make him a one term president. As Diehard posts, four years ago Trump tweeted a call for a march on Washington to 'stop this travesty' of Obama reelection. So save me the 'whining from the left' comment and the suggestion to 'nut up'.

I'll stop there so I can keep it civil. I'm politically correct sometimes.

[pangloss]

I think now days, with most any protest, there are people who use said protest simply as a cover to break the law and damage property.

There are also usually a small group of "hardcore" people who are far more on the fringe who go overboard. It's unfortunate. And sadly it's usually difficult to police.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe Anonymous clowns and the TV show 'Robot' show electronic and physical vandalism as a virtue. I'd bet the jerks that vandalized Rocker Ute's church are big Robot fans and see themselves as noble resistors to the machine - or some such nonsense.

Full disclosure - I like Robot.

[Rocker Ute]

Not voting for Trump won't let you off the hook if he does the asinine things he promised and the economy, society and government are wrecked. A protest vote just doesn't cut it. If you thought Trump was a dangerous demagogue and didn't vote for Clinton, you are partially culpable in my mind. Opposition to Trump was a moral duty - just to calibrate you on my beliefs.

An awful lot of the folks that are unhappy 'with Obama and the direction he took the country' can't seem to cite specifics. I won't speculate on the cause.



So count me as one who voted for Hillary for the reasons you cited and I also am one who is 'unhappy with Obama and the direction he took the country'. You said we can't cite specific reasons, I have a few:

1. As a small business owner I survived and endured while large corporations and banks who caused the problem got bailed out. While main street suffered, Wall Street prospered with interest free loans (free money), no penalties and the issues that caused the collapse are still in place. The economic recovery was way protracted and when I was a two year old business (and personally had perfect credit) looking for a $10,000 loan fully collateralized to help with fluctuations in cash flow I was denied again and again.

2. People applaud that Obama has brought the deficit spending down to GWB levels again. Congrats, still too high.

3. ACA has resulted in me both being dropped from my plan that I hoped that 'if I liked [my] plan, I could keep [my] plan' but instead got bumped off. Why does that suck? It was about half of what I am paying now. I used to pay for preventive care visits out of pocket with a HDHP and an associated HSA. I spent about $350/year on those visits. Now I pay about $3000 more a year so my preventive care visits are now 'free' (as ACA mouth-breathers will falsely celebrate). Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that pre-existing conditions are covered now and you can keep your 26yo on your plan, that is good stuff. However, the ACA has punished the healthy and raised costs and done nothing to address what is really causing healthcare costs to rise.

4. Foreign policy adrift has emboldened our enemies. Even HRC would agree with that. We've abandoned our allies. We brokered a nuclear deal with Iran that in my opinion will just strengthen Iran and in 10 years when they are in a better position will just resume their pursuit to nuclear proliferation in a Tehran Minute. Puget Ute will want to correct this of course, yes I've read all of his arguments. He seemed completely oblivious to the threat that Russia posed and is posing, and when they took over Crimea didn't even rattle a saber. It is fine to have an internal policy to not commit troops on the ground in the middle east, but don't tell your enemies of your plan. This list, for foreign policy could go on for ages.

5. Obama has been unable to do what Bill Clinton and other past presidents have done well in reaching across the aisle and working together. Yes the Republicans have been awful, but he continually pokes that relationship with a stick demonstrating little interest in doing his part to mend fences.

So yes, there are some specific issues I have with the direction he has taken the country, you of course are free to disagree with all of it.

That being said, would I take Obama a third term over HRC or The Cheeto Prez? No question. Do other parties blame in the issues I mention above (Republicans, GWB, HRC, etc)? Yes they do, but my parents never let me get away with "well they did it too" and we shouldn't do the same here.

Like you I am fearful of a Trump presidency. What to do about climate change is one thing, the denial it is happening is frightening. We still don't know what his policies are, because even his stated ones are incoherent. This feels like the argument, to paraphrase the old ACA argument, "We need to elect this president to find out what this president will do". Yet he has a track record of being reactionary, unstable, willfully ignorant, hateful and vindictive. He also has admitted to assaulting women, is currently being sued for fraud and the list goes on and on and on. Our only hope is that he didn't really mean all of those things, despite demonstrating that he really does throughout his awful life.

It's a dark time for our country.

[pangloss]

So count me as one who voted for Hillary for the reasons you cited and I also am one who is 'unhappy with Obama and the direction he took the country'. You said we can't cite specific reasons, I have a few:

1. As a small business owner I survived and endured while large corporations and banks who caused the problem got bailed out. While main street suffered, Wall Street prospered with interest free loans (free money), no penalties and the issues that caused the collapse are still in place. The economic recovery was way protracted and when I was a two year old business looking for a $10,000 loan fully collateralized to help with fluctuations in cash flow I was denied again and again.

2. People applaud that Obama has brought the deficit spending down to GWB levels again. Congrats, still too high.

3. ACA has resulted in me both being dropped from my plan that I hoped that 'if I liked [my] plan, I could keep [my] plan' but instead got bumped off. Why does that suck? It was about half of what I am paying now. I used to pay for preventive care visits out of pocket with a HDHP and an associated HSA. I spent about $350/year on those visits. Now I pay about $3000 more a year so my preventive care visits are now 'free' (as ACA mouth-breathers will falsely celebrate). Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that pre-existing conditions are covered now and you can keep your 26yo on your plan, that is good stuff. However, the ACA has punished the healthy and raised costs and done nothing to address what is really causing healthcare costs to rise.

4. Foreign policy adrift has emboldened our enemies. Even HRC would agree with that. We've abandoned our allies. We brokered a nuclear deal with Iran that in my opinion will just strengthen Iran and in 10 years when they are in a better position will just resume their pursuit to nuclear proliferation in a Tehran Minute. Puget Ute will want to correct this of course, yes I've read all of his arguments. He seemed completely oblivious to the threat that Russia posed and is posing, and when they took over Crimea didn't even rattle a saber. It is fine to have an internal policy to not commit troops on the ground in the middle east, but don't tell your enemies of your plan. This list, for foreign policy could go on for ages.

5. Obama has been unable to do what Bill Clinton and other past presidents have done well in reaching across the aisle and working together. Yes the Republicans have been awful, but he continually pokes that relationship with a stick demonstrating little interest in doing his part to mend fences.

So yes, there are some specific issues I have with the direction he has taken the country, you of course are free to disagree with all of it.

That being said, would I take Obama a third term over HRC or The Cheeto Prez? No question. Do other parties blame in the issues I mention above (Republicans, GWB, HRC, etc)? Yes they do, but my parents never let me get away with "well they did it too" and we shouldn't do the same here.

Like you I am fearful of a Trump presidency. What to do about climate change is one thing, the denial it is happening is frightening. We still don't know what his policies are, because even his stated ones are incoherent. This feels like the argument, to paraphrase the old ACA argument, "We need to elect this president to find out what this president will do". Yet he has a track record of being reactionary, unstable, willfully ignorant, hateful and vindictive. He also has admitted to assaulting women, is currently being sued for fraud and the list goes on and on and on. Our only hope is that he didn't really mean all of those things, despite demonstrating that he really does throughout his awful life.

It's a dark time for our country.Excellent post. I agree, more or less, with all of it. I probably come across as Obama Pollyanna-ish. I'm cranky. I'm not as pacifist as Obama vis-a-vis the Middle East. And I am nauseous that Russia and Asad are thrilled with Trump's election.

An awful lot of institutions both private and public are or have been dysfunctional to an extent. I'm afraid Trump will re-break many of the old, slowly healing fractures and break new ones that were working. Your inability to get basic working capital loans is maddening. And the government's treatment of the mega corps and banks makes me sick - I understand why they did it in 2008, but still...

On this Veterans Day, I hope Trump is successful improving the veterans administration and how our country treats all vets. He said he would make it 'great'. But he also denigrated PTSD as an injury. So who knows where he will go or do.

[#1 Utefan]

Not voting for Trump won't let you off the hook if he does the asinine things he promised and the economy, society and government are wrecked. A protest vote just doesn't cut it. If you thought Trump was a dangerous demagogue and didn't vote for Clinton, you are partially culpable in my mind. Opposition to Trump was a moral duty - just to calibrate you on my beliefs.

An awful lot of the folks that are unhappy 'with Obama and the direction he took the country' can't seem to cite specifics. I won't speculate on the cause.

Yes, I'm sick that Trump will dismantle the progress President Obama implemented. A couple examples, if you believe that climate change is an existential threat, l do, then Trump's win is profoundly awful - Paris Agreement on greenhouse gases, EPA regulations on a host of toxins and industrial pollutants, and the Clean Power Plan were all on Trump's hit list at one time or another. His denial that the problems exist doesn't give me any solace. If you think Trump has a different approach to address those issues, fine, I didn't hear him address those alternatives, he just pledged to undo Obama's executive orders. If you don't think those are critically important issues, we don't have much to talk about since we can't even agree on scientific facts.

How about trade? In my macro economics class I learned that free trade is good for both countries. Thinking Republicans have supported free trade since Smoot-Haley (look it up if you don't know the reference). Trump called NAFTA the worst trade deal in history and promised to dismantle it and TPP. His protectionist speech should scare the hell out of you. It's profoundly stupid and a threat to the world's economic health.

Let me briefly remind you of the reaction to President Obama's election eight years ago. The tea party astro-turf groups were formed with funding & guidance from far right billionaires. They had protests with vile racist posters. Senator McConnell pledged to stop everything President Obama tried to do and make him a one term president. As Diehard posts, four years ago Trump tweeted a call for a march on Washington to 'stop this travesty' of Obama reelection. So save me the 'whining from the left' comment and the suggestion to 'nut up'.

I'll stop there so I can keep it civil. I'm politically correct sometimes.

You really think casting my vote for someone as untrustworthy and corrupt as Hillary Clinton is my responsibility just because I'm not a fan of Donald Trump's tone and ego? They were both unworthy of the office of POTUS IMO and I couldn't in good conscious cast my vote for either one of them.

Your problem is you are so bogged down in your own political ideology you are seemingly incapable of seeing any weaknesses and warts of candidates on the left. I have outlined in multiple posts in this thread already why I think Obama has been very divisive and taken the country in a direction I don't agree with (Obamacare, abuse of the Constitution and executive power, class warfare, terrible Middle East foreign policy, etc)

These are polarizing issues and legitimate concerns for a lot of Americans. Just because you aren't one of them doesn't make it any less of a reality.

Where we can agree and an area where I have considerable reservation about Trump is tariiffs and trade. Yes, I am every bit as economically literate as yourself and don't need to look up Smoot-Hawley to know exactly what it is and the theories on how it contributed to the depression (and I hope you realize that many economists feel FDR's Keysnesian policies which Obama and the left still cling to actually prolonged the depression).

I am pinning my hopes that most of his economic advisors and GOP members of congress will set him straight and tone down his potentially harmful populist trade ideas. I just don't see most Congressional business and trade friendly Republicans going along with tariffs and potential trade war.

As for Obama's energy policy, are you really surprised that this alienated so many traditional blue collar white Democrats? While it is an important issue, when you a coal miner, oil worker, or manufacturing worker, you are looking at Obama and the left as an ivory tower elitists declaring war on your livlihood. Moreover, the prospect of cap and trade and potential doubling of your monthly energy bills is a pretty disturbing prospect for the average, middle class American.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

My joke of the day is, by this time next year, we'll get to wish EVERYone a Happy Veterans Day, probably.


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[Devildog]

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/Crying_zpsrjzpjdjz.jpg (http://s705.photobucket.com/user/RuggedH2/media/Crying_zpsrjzpjdjz.jpg.html)

[Devildog]

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/Speech_zps3h8di7pm.png (http://s705.photobucket.com/user/RuggedH2/media/Speech_zps3h8di7pm.png.html)

[Hayes6]

I don't think you get to decide what protests work. Weren't Trump supporters threatening an armed revolt if Hillary won? If you were a woman or Hispanic or Muslim or LGBT or on and on wouldn't you be angry and/or frightened by the concept of a man who said what Trump said as president?

[Diehard Ute]

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/Crying_zpsrjzpjdjz.jpg (http://s705.photobucket.com/user/RuggedH2/media/Crying_zpsrjzpjdjz.jpg.html)

Crap. Our president elect is a fan of crying.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Devildog]

I don't think you get to decide what protests work. Weren't Trump supporters threatening an armed revolt if Hillary won? If you were a woman or Hispanic or Muslim or LGBT or on and on wouldn't you be angry and/or frightened by the concept of a man who said what Trump said as president?

He has only been the president-elect for one day. What did he say specifically that makes you quake so?

[Devildog]

Crap. Our president elect is a fan of crying.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would have thought cops were a little tougher than this. The hypocrisy is shameful. When Obama was elected... Who broke shit?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQhl5cAj6h4

[Hayes6]

He has only been the president-elect for one day. What did he say specifically that makes you quake so?

I'm not quaking, but I do try to have this thing called "empathy." Do you? Have you tried to put yourself in the shoes of a law-abiding Hispanic or Muslim? Wouldn't the things Trump said while campaigning worry you? Have you seen and heard what his followers are already doing? Are you willing to renounce those things? Why hasn't Trump? He complains about people protesting his victory but says nothing about the KKK holding a victory parade. Does that not bother you?

[Hayes6]

[QUOTE=Devildog;88324]I would have thought cops were a little tougher than this. The hypocrisy is shameful. When Obama was elected... Who broke shit?

Again, remember that Trump supporters were threatening armed revolt if Hillary won. Oh, and when Obama won, these folks broke shit:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/08/us/anti-obama-protest-at-university-of-mississippi-turns-unruly.html

[Devildog]

I'm not quaking, but I do try to have this thing called "empathy." Do you? Have you tried to put yourself in the shoes of a law-abiding Hispanic or Muslim? Wouldn't the things Trump said while campaigning worry you? Have you seen and heard what his followers are already doing? Are you willing to renounce those things? Why hasn't Trump? He complains about people protesting his victory but says nothing about the KKK holding a victory parade. Does that not bother you?

What exactly are his "followers" doing? The KKK is a disappearing joke... the BLM movement is a thousand times more visible and every bit as racist... are you renouncing?

[Hayes6]

What exactly are his "followers" doing? The KKK is a disappearing joke... the BLM movement is a thousand times more visible and every bit as racist... are you renouncing?

Many examples of them doing stuff like this: http://a.msn.com/01/en-us/AAk9qAY?ocid=sf The KKK was disappearing until Trump emboldened them. They are not a joke if you are a black person in the South. It's that empathy thing again. And I believe black lives matter and I support their cause. I don't support any violence by them or anyone else in support of any other cause. You still haven't renounced the racist, misogynist, etc. actions or words of Trump or his followers.

[Devildog]

Many examples of them doing stuff like this: http://a.msn.com/01/en-us/AAk9qAY?ocid=sf The KKK was disappearing until Trump emboldened them. They are not a joke if you are a black person in the South. It's that empathy thing again. And I believe black lives matter and I support their cause. I don't support any violence by them or anyone else in support of any other cause. You still haven't renounced the racist, misogynist, etc. actions or words of Trump or his followers.

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/No%20time_zpsvh6qd1hs.jpg (http://s705.photobucket.com/user/RuggedH2/media/No%20time_zpsvh6qd1hs.jpg.html)

[Diehard Ute]

I would have thought cops were a little tougher than this. The hypocrisy is shameful. When Obama was elected... Who broke shit?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQhl5cAj6h4

You haven't read Trumps tweets and statements have you?

He's a huge proponent of protesting when he doesn't get his way, the point of my response.




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[Devildog]

You haven't read Trumps tweets and statements have you?

He's a huge proponent of protesting when he doesn't get his way, the point of my response.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When exactly was the last great Trump supported protest that broke shit?

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

I would have thought cops were a little tougher than this. The hypocrisy is shameful. When Obama was elected... Who broke shit?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQhl5cAj6h4

Ha! Trump's folks won and they're still breaking shit. Lot's of evidence of hate vandalism in the last week. Poor behavior on each side. (Specifically referring to vandalism and violence. I can't complain about peaceful protest, even if some of it is silly.)


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[Devildog]

Ha! Trump's folks won and they're still breaking shit. Lot's of evidence of hate vandalism in the last week. Poor behavior on each side. (Specifically referring to vandalism and violence. I can't complain about peaceful protest, even if some of it is silly.)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Evidence please. Oh, and try to find it in scale to the opposition.

[Hayes6]

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/No%20time_zpsvh6qd1hs.jpg (http://s705.photobucket.com/user/RuggedH2/media/No%20time_zpsvh6qd1hs.jpg.html)

Based on this quote, it appears you don't have any empathy for others. Sad!

[Devildog]

Based on this quote, it appears you don't have any empathy for others. Sad!

My only advice to you is to try not to be such a pussy. Go lead your life. Try to face some real adversity along the way as you try to stand for something. Go get shot at and live to tell the tale.

[Hayes6]

My only advice to you is to try not to be such a pussy. Go lead your life. Try to face some real adversity along the way as you try to stand for something. Go get shot at and live to tell the tale.

If having empathy makes me a pussy, then I wear that name proudly. If you served our country, I sincerely thank you for your sacrifice, which appears to include a good chunk of your humanity. I hope you find it.

[Devildog]

If having empathy makes me a pussy, then I wear that name proudly. If you served our country, I sincerely thank you for your sacrifice, which appears to include a good chunk of your humanity. I hope you find it.

I sincerely couldn't care less about your judgments of me. What we see depends on where we stand. You have no vantage point I give a shit about.

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/Flavor_zpsr1oljlnz.png (http://s705.photobucket.com/user/RuggedH2/media/Flavor_zpsr1oljlnz.png.html)

[Rocker Ute]

I sincerely couldn't care less about your judgments of me. What we see depends on where we stand. You have no vantage point I give a shit about.

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/Flavor_zpsr1oljlnz.png (http://s705.photobucket.com/user/RuggedH2/media/Flavor_zpsr1oljlnz.png.html)

I'm sincerely curious about your service. Where and when did you serve? Are you still in the military?

[Devildog]

Are you asking about my resume as a friend? Then please...Tell me all about yourself.

It is Veterans Day libs... Please defer all your false platitudes until tomorrow. Nobody who ever contributed actual sacrifice toward our nation buys your bullshit gratitude either. Thankful as long as your views are the same... Good luck with that. You couldn't relate to actually serving and what that really means... Empathy...my ass. Oh well... as long as it's easy to say.

[#1 Utefan]

I don't think you get to decide what protests work. Weren't Trump supporters threatening an armed revolt if Hillary won? If you were a woman or Hispanic or Muslim or LGBT or on and on wouldn't you be angry and/or frightened by the concept of a man who said what Trump said as president?

I might be nervous and fightened if I was here illegally. I'm not sure those here legally are as nervous. I can comment on this because my wife is hispanic.

[NorthwestUteFan]

So count me as one who voted for Hillary for the reasons you cited and I also am one who is 'unhappy with Obama and the direction he took the country'. You said we can't cite specific reasons, I have a few:

1. As a small business owner I survived and endured while large corporations and banks who caused the problem got bailed out. While main street suffered, Wall Street prospered with interest free loans (free money), no penalties and the issues that caused the collapse are still in place. The economic recovery was way protracted and when I was a two year old business (and personally had perfect credit) looking for a $10,000 loan fully collateralized to help with fluctuations in cash flow I was denied again and again.


.

I am beginning to think that Iceland did things right in this sense. They jailed all of the bank leadership responsible for crashing their economy, nationalized the banks to stabilize the economy, bailed out the consumers, and then re-privatized the banks with a new set of restrictions.

One of the men responsible for the economy crash was the CEO of JP Chase Morgan (iirc), Jamie Dimon. Donald Trump called him a horrible banker and a terrible human being for his company's involvement. Now DJT is going to make him the Secretary of the Treasury.

Newt Gingrich is now going to be Sec of State. He has been a huge proponent of increased intervention overseas. Between that and Trump saying he will tear up the internationally-negotiated Iran treaty, I fear will end with DevilDog's son's boots on the ground in Iran. Luckily they no longer have any fissible material and are a decade away from making them again, or else things could get very hot.

Oil company execs will likely run the EPA. Drill Baby, Drill will make its return (literally, if Sarah Palin becomes Sec of Interior), etc.

This isn't much of a swamp draining, if they simply put the same types of people back in charge.

And frankly, Hillary Clinton would have done almost all of the same things. She is only marginally better in several areas, and is even more of a corporate shill. It feels like the typical Republican candidate lost, and the outsider 3rd party candidate won. And the populist Democrat, man of the people, got Primaried by the DNC front office. I have to wonder whether Bernie Sanders would have been the first candidate in history to garner 70M+ votes.

One possible benefit to a Trump presidency is that he appears to be at least somewhat open to suggestions on foreign policy matters, rather than take direction from the congressional coalition on foreign policy. Hopefully he will lean somewhat toward isolationism and non-intervention and shun the saber rattlers who lobby for military equipment suppliers, but sadly I see more overseas adventurism in our near future.


Of course all of this assumes he doesn't lose his upcoming fraud trial over Trump University.

[Hayes6]

I might be nervous and fightened if I was here illegally. I'm not sure those here legally are as nervous. I can comment on this because my wife is hispanic.

She best prepare herself for hearing some nasty stuff about going back to Mexico if she hasn't heard it already. I hope I'm wrong about that, but it's been happening due to Trump emboldening the racist, xenophobic part of our society. It's been happening to my kids' Asian friends right here in SLC.

[Hayes6]

Are you asking about my resume as a friend? Then please...Tell me all about yourself.

It is Veterans Day libs... Please defer all your false platitudes until tomorrow. Nobody who ever contributed actual sacrifice toward our nation buys your bullshit gratitude either. Thankful as long as your views are the same... Good luck with that. You couldn't relate to actually serving and what that really means... Empathy...my ass. Oh well... as long as it's easy to say.

I do have empathy for you. It's clear that things have happened to you that caused you to become bitter and angry. Maybe those things happened while you served of our country. However it happened, I wish it hadn't, for your sake and for society's sake. And I don't expect you to agree with me on things. I truly honor your service, but that doesn't mean I have to honor you opinions or agree with them, either.

[Rocker Ute]

Are you asking about my resume as a friend? Then please...Tell me all about yourself.

It is Veterans Day libs... Please defer all your false platitudes until tomorrow. Nobody who ever contributed actual sacrifice toward our nation buys your bullshit gratitude either. Thankful as long as your views are the same... Good luck with that. You couldn't relate to actually serving and what that really means... Empathy...my ass. Oh well... as long as it's easy to say.

I'm not much of a liberal, but thanks anyway. I didn't have any malice in my question, nor did I intend to shower you with gratitude. Every person in the military I've ever known will happily share that info. In fact the only people I've ever met who resist offering that up are homeless guys who have stolen valor. So where'd you serve?

[Devildog]

I'm not much of a liberal, but thanks anyway. I didn't have any malice in my question, nor did I intend to shower you with gratitude. Every person in the military I've ever known will happily share that info. In fact the only people I've ever met who resist offering that up are homeless guys who have stolen valor. So where'd you serve?

Who?

[Devildog]

Tell me about yourself Rocker. Put your resume up. Don't accuse and challenge what you are not willing to give.

Stolen valor? On Veterans Day? You have zero shame, but you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Rocker Ute]

Tell me about yourself Rocker. Put your resume up. Don't accuse and challenge what you are not willing to give.

You want to know about my military service? I have none.

If you want to know my resume I graduated from the U in Marketing and got a masters in IS also at the U. I live and work in SLC. I run my own web business, I'm married with 3 children.

So, let's hear about you. So where'd you serve and when?

[Devildog]

If I tell you on the internet what units I served with and where... would it change your view? Because I don't think it would. For one, I went in with Enduring Freedom.

[Rocker Ute]

If I tell you on the internet what units I served with and where... would it change your view? Because I don't think it would. For one, I went in with Enduring Freedom.

View of what? I have no issue with you, I was just curious. I didn't accuse you of stolen valor, you are just the first person I've ever met who has served who won't tell me when and where he served. I used to work by the homeless shelter. Whenever I'd see vets I'd talk to them, most would tell me about their service. The guys wearing mismatched fatigues were the ones who couldn't give straight answers.

So you were in Afghanistan in the Marines. Cool. How many tours? What part?

[Devildog]

View of what? I have no issue with you, I was just curious. I didn't accuse you of stolen valor, you are just the first person I've ever met who has served who won't tell me when and where he served. I used to work by the homeless shelter. Whenever I'd see vets I'd talk to them, most would tell me about their service. The guys wearing mismatched fatigues were the ones who couldn't give straight answers.

So you were in Afghanistan in the Marines. Cool. How many tours? What part?

Enduring Freedom was in Iraq. My cammies are not mismatched.

[Rocker Ute]

Enduring Freedom was in Iraq. My cammies are not mismatched.


You might want to let the Marines know: http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/US%20Marines%20in%20Afghanistan%20Anthology.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Enduring_Freedom

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/bush-announces-the-launch-of-operation-iraqi-freedom

[Devildog]

You might want to let the Marines know: http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/US%20Marines%20in%20Afghanistan%20Anthology.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Enduring_Freedom

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/bush-announces-the-launch-of-operation-iraqi-freedom

Oh haha... you're right. This sincerely made me laugh.

[USS Utah]

It's interesting to see the reaction of Trump supporters to the protests.

Now I'm not a protest person, but I will always support someone's right to protest. That all being said it's funny how people get upset when people protest something and they don't agree with it.

I only get concerned when the protests are less than peaceable.

[pangloss]

Newt Gingrich is now going to be Sec of State. He has been a huge proponent of increased intervention overseas. Between that and Trump saying he will tear up the internationally-negotiated Iran treaty, I fear will end with DevilDog's son's boots on the ground in Iran. Luckily they no longer have any fissible material and are a decade away from making them again, or else things could get very hot.God forbid we invade Iran. It would make the Iraq fiasco look like Granada -- well, not really. But Iran is much larger, has a lot more people that are more homogeneous, and is geographically much more difficult than Iraq. It also has religious supporters all over the region, whereas Iraq & Hussein had very few friends. If the US puts boots on the ground or 'bombs the hell out of them' then the region will get even worse. And like it or not, we're not getting out of there. President Obama intended to do so, and learned he could not.

It will be interesting to see who he nominates for Sec. of State and Sec. of Defense. If he chooses an adult, like Steven Hadley, for defense then maybe it won't be complete chaos. One of his problems staffing State and Defense will be that many Republican senior civilians signed a letter calling him an idiot (or something like that).

Also, I think a bunch of general officers and high level career bureaucrats at State and DOD will, or may quit. He badmouthed those folks on the campaign trail and getting those huge organizations to do anything without experienced senior officials who know how the place works will be very difficult. Those general officers at DOD were deeply disturbed by his idiotic statements that he knows more about ISIS than they do and his statements that he will order them to violate the Geneva convention against torture.

[USS Utah]

Not voting for Trump won't let you off the hook if he does the asinine things he promised and the economy, society and government are wrecked. A protest vote just doesn't cut it. If you thought Trump was a dangerous demagogue and didn't vote for Clinton, you are partially culpable in my mind. Opposition to Trump was a moral duty - just to calibrate you on my beliefs.

Sorry, not buying. I could have voted for Hillary, but Trump would still have won Utah and the presidency.

[USS Utah]

My only advice to you is to try not to be such a pussy. Go lead your life. Try to face some real adversity along the way as you try to stand for something. Go get shot at and live to tell the tale.

Getting shot at on a battlefield means you don't have to have empathy? Uh . . . okay.

[Rocker Ute]

Stolen valor? On Veterans Day? You have zero shame, but you should be ashamed of yourself.

...

[pangloss]

Sorry, not buying. I could have voted for Hillary, but Trump would still have won Utah and the presidency.I meant that protest votes don't let him off the hook in a moral culpability sense. I'm pretty good at arithmetic and understand it wouldn't have changed the outcome.

[Devildog]

Well I'm completely three sheets to the wind... so, I'm sorry. too drunk to disagree right now. I love four day weekends,, Day drunk into the night.

[pangloss]

Newt Gingrich is now going to be Sec of State.Gingrich is smart. He has some screws loose but he isn't insane. Bolton, on the other hand, is certifiable. If he gets DOD or State, well, pray he doesn't. He makes Rumsfeld look like a pacifist.

[USS Utah]

Are you asking about my resume as a friend? Then please...Tell me all about yourself.

It is Veterans Day libs... Please defer all your false platitudes until tomorrow. Nobody who ever contributed actual sacrifice toward our nation buys your bullshit gratitude either. Thankful as long as your views are the same... Good luck with that. You couldn't relate to actually serving and what that really means... Empathy...my ass. Oh well... as long as it's easy to say.

I have thanked active duty and retired military members. I have never gotten this kind of reaction.

[USS Utah]

I meant that protest votes don't let him off the hook in a moral culpability sense. I'm pretty good at arithmetic and understand it wouldn't have changed the outcome.

So, I am morally culpable for the things Obama did that I disagreed with because I did not vote for McCain?

[Rocker Ute]

Well, since it is Veteran's Day and this thread has taken an interesting turn maybe something worth talking about:

This is the obituary of a Marine, neighbor and friend, Vay Barney (http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/saltlaketribune/obituary.aspx?pid=176406752).

The four sentences describing his military service might serve as one the biggest understatements in history. Vay was a true war hero (hence the Bronze Star) who in battle in Japan and while wounded stormed a machine gun nest, disarmed the gunner, wrestled away a gun and killed the enemy saving the lives of many.

He had in his possession a Japanese rising sun flag signed by Japanese generals along with other impressive war memorabilia. As mentioned, he didn't talk about it much and refused to let us record his stories. He would freely talk about a pretty girl he met while he was serving. What I do know about him though is he would regularly hang a bag of fruits and vegetables from his garden over the fence for a widow neighbor of his and quietly lived the best life he could.

Three or four years ago he had to go live in an Alzheimer's clinic where he died. I owe a debt of gratitude to Vay for his military service and his service to a widow in need.

[#1 Utefan]

Sorry, not buying. I could have voted for Hillary, but Trump would still have won Utah and the presidency.

To say nothing of the fact he refuses to acknowledge all of Hillary's significant warts. I find it incredibly self serving and arrogant to imply that me or anyone else is "morally culpable" for voting my conscious and 3rd party rather then for a dishonest and ethically challenged candidate like Hillary.

As I've stated previously, I voted 3rd party this year because I found both candidates too flawed and unfit for office to cast my vote for either. I voted my conscious. To have a liberal idealogue that is incapable of seeing or acknowledging any flaws in Obama or Clinton now tell me I had some kind of moral responsibility to vote for someone as corrupt as Clinton is beyond ridiculous.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

Well I'm completely three sheets to the wind... so, I'm sorry. too drunk to disagree right now. I love four day weekends,, Day drunk into the night.

On Veterans Day?


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[#1 Utefan]

She best prepare herself for hearing some nasty stuff about going back to Mexico if she hasn't heard it already. I hope I'm wrong about that, but it's been happening due to Trump emboldening the racist, xenophobic part of our society. It's been happening to my kids' Asian friends right here in SLC.

She has heard nothing of the sort and I doubt she will in the future either. By the way, you do realize not all hispanics are from Mexico, right?

Why do I get the feeling you are using hyperbole and exaggeration to perpetuate a certain narrative given your frustration and anger over the results of the election? I'm not saying that aren't some rednecks and/or racists out there. Just that you and the left are grasping onto any and all isolated reports or rumors happening to fit your narrative of Donald Trump's supporters.

I think this story written by a gay muslim sums up the point I am trying to make. Mellow out and stop generalizing and stigmatizing.

http://www.glennbeck.com/2016/11/10/what-a-gay-muslim-pakistani-american-immigrant-learned-traveling-to-rural-alaska-the-week-before-the-election/

[pangloss]

So, I am morally culpable for the things Obama did that I disagreed with because I did not vote for McCain?No, it's a dopey idea. There's nothing wrong with a protest vote. I guess.

[pangloss]

To say nothing of the fact he refuses to acknowledge all of Hillary's significant warts. I find it incredibly self serving and arrogant to imply that me or anyone else is "morally culpable" for voting my conscious and 3rd party rather then for a dishonest and ethically challenged candidate like Hillary.

As I've stated previously, I voted 3rd party this year because I found both candidates too flawed and unfit for office to cast my vote for either. I voted my conscious. To have a liberal idealogue that is incapable of seeing or acknowledging any flaws in Obama or Clinton now tell me I had some kind of moral responsibility to vote for someone as corrupt as Clinton is beyond ridiculous.I retract my 'moral culpability' comment. I was mistaken.
It's pointless to defend Clinton now, but I think the corruption charges, Benghazi, and the email crap are hyped up for political gain. This was a lousy election campaign without any meaningful debate on issues. Clinton's web site had a bunch of content. I imagine dozens of people read it. Trump's was superficial platitudes.

So I'm a liberal ideologue now? Whatever.

[USS Utah]

To say nothing of the fact he refuses to acknowledge all of Hillary's significant warts. I find it incredibly self serving and arrogant to imply that me or anyone else is "morally culpable" for voting my conscious and 3rd party rather then for a dishonest and ethically challenged candidate like Hillary.

As I've stated previously, I voted 3rd party this year because I found both candidates too flawed and unfit for office to cast my vote for either. I voted my conscious. To have a liberal idealogue that is incapable of seeing or acknowledging any flaws in Obama or Clinton now tell me I had some kind of moral responsibility to vote for someone as corrupt as Clinton is beyond ridiculous.

The Democratic Party is morally culpable for nominating such a weak candidate, one who could not beat a candidate running the second worst campaign in my lifetime -- Hillary gets the worst since she lost -- and one who got between 6 million and 8 million fewer votes than Obama did 4 years ago. Her base stayed home, surely they are morally culpable, not those who couldn't vote for either major candidate.

[USS Utah]

No, it's a dopey idea. There's nothing wrong with a protest vote. I guess.

Trump supporters were telling me before election day that my vote would be wasted and would elect Hillary. I rejected that argument as just as dopey. The only wasted votes are those not cast. Those who didn't vote surely have more culpability than I.

[Ma'ake]

Why do I get the feeling you are using hyperbole and exaggeration to perpetuate a certain narrative given your frustration and anger over the results of the election? I'm not saying that aren't some rednecks and/or racists out there. Just that you and the left are grasping onto any and all isolated reports or rumors happening to fit your narrative of Donald Trump's supporters.

I think this story written by a gay muslim sums up the point I am trying to make. Mellow out and stop generalizing and stigmatizing.


LOL - Well done.

[Ma'ake]

Well, since it is Veteran's Day and this thread has taken an interesting turn maybe something worth talking about:

This is the obituary of a Marine, neighbor and friend, Vay Barney (http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/saltlaketribune/obituary.aspx?pid=176406752)

Great post, great story, and a sincere salute to our vets on Veterans Day.

[USS Utah]

Meanwhile, there are people who were upset at Trumps wait and see answer to whether he would accept the results of the election who are now signing a petition to have members of the electoral college change their votes to Hillary.

[#1 Utefan]

LOL - Well done.

You guys just refuse to acknlowledge and/or and grasp the point All this midslinging, stereotyping, and generalizing of large groups of Americans cuts both ways.

I am a supporter of neither of this year's major party candidates. I am, however, pointing out the hypocrisy of the left in trying to marginalize and paint all Trump supporters as racists, white supremacists, etc. Most are just Americans like you with different opinions, needs, and viewpoints

[Ma'ake]

I am a supporter of neither of this year's major party candidates. I am, however, pointing out the hypocrisy of the left in trying to marginalize and paint all Trump supporters as racists, white supremacists, etc. Most are just Americans like you with different opinions, needs, and viewpoints

What makes you think we're not capable of realizing that diversity of integrity / motives / honor / empathy exists among Trump supporters? The eruption of emotion that such a repulsive, self-centered, misogynist who flagrantly bullied a number of individuals, and entire groups during the campaign is now the most powerful man in the world?

Well, forgive us. And we'll forgive you, for your sanctimonious, broad brush judgement of us, having conveniently dodged having to make a tough decision to support a very flawed candidate, enabling you to present yourself as a neutral arbiter of civil behavior.

Geezus.

[#1 Utefan]

What makes you think we're not capable of realizing that diversity of integrity / motives / honor / empathy exists among Trump supporters? The eruption of emotion that such a repulsive, self-centered, misogynist who flagrantly bullied a number of individuals, and entire groups during the campaign is now the most powerful man in the world?

Well, forgive us. And we'll forgive you, for your sanctimonious, broad brush judgement of us, having conveniently dodged having to make a tough decision to support a very flawed candidate, enabling you to present yourself as a neutral arbiter of civil behavior.

Geezus.

Give it a rest. Your preferred candidate was just as flawed as Trump, albeit for different reasons. You could have voted 3rd party as well. Instead you chose to support a dishonest and severly flawed candidate because she was a better match for your political ideology.

I voted 3rd party because both candidates were unfit for high office. I don't give a damn if you consider that a cop out. I voted my conscious which is more I can say for liberals who understood just how flawed and corrupt Hillary was themselves but
cast their vote for her anyway.

[Ma'ake]

Give it a rest. Your preferred candidate was just as flawed as Trump, albeit for different reasons. You could have voted 3rd party as well. Instead you chose to support a dishonest and severly flawed candidate because she was a better match for your political ideology.

I voted 3rd party because both candidates were unfit for high office. I don't give a damn if you consider that a cop out. I voted my conscious which is more I can say for liberals who understood just how flawed and corrupt Hillary was themselves but
cast their vote for her anyway.

How stalwart are you, unwilling to reveal who you voted for, preserving your conscience from being scrutinized, an evidently "conscious" decision.

"Give it a rest" - you need to give your self appointed civility police role a rest, as well. I'm bitter, and I need to give it a rest, but decided that knocking you off your pedestal of false superiority was a worthy punch.

[pangloss]

Trump supporters were telling me before election day that my vote would be wasted and would elect Hillary. I rejected that argument as just as dopey. The only wasted votes are those not cast. Those who didn't vote surely have more culpability than I.I wasn't clear, I meant that my earlier post that protest votes were guilty of something was dopey.

You are right. The folks that stayed home, didn't vote, and thought they would let someone else vote her into office are the culpable group. There are plenty of them, they swung the election. In 2012 Obama got 2 million more votes than Trump, 2 million out of 60 million.

[pangloss]

Meanwhile, there are people who were upset at Trumps wait and see answer to whether he would accept the results of the election who are now signing a petition to have members of the electoral college change their votes to Hillary.While true, you didn't hear Sec. Clinton question the legitimacy of the election or whine that it was rigged. The folks circulating the petition are still in denial. I'm in the next phase - pissed.

[Devildog]

Turns out that I got a caramel apple today from my wife's office for veterans day. She was there for the whole thing... I guess I should have provided my resume.

[chrisrenrut]

I just love how politics brings out the best in all of us.

:fight::swear::uzi::finger::pistols:

[LA Ute]

So I'm a liberal ideologue now? Whatever.

But you're OUR liberal ideologue, dadgummit!



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[LA Ute]

I was surprised at how much this Miley Cyrus video impressed me, even though many have ridiculed it. Articulate and passionate and gentle.


https://youtu.be/PjZoljZcVcw


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[Irving Washington]

Another anecdote. A friend of my wife is an immigrant from Mexico. He is also a veteran and a college graduate. His wife is of Asian descent. They were taking a walk Friday and were confronted by someone who told them to leave the country, called him stupid, and denigrated their mixed-race marriage. Verbally abused a vet on Veterans Day. Just another example of how Trump has emboldened racists. He really has to come out and condemn such actions.

[USS Utah]

While true, you didn't hear Sec. Clinton question the legitimacy of the election or whine that it was rigged. The folks circulating the petition are still in denial. I'm in the next phase - pissed.


Which is why I made no mention of her.

I was extremely disappointed this time 4 years ago.

[USS Utah]

Another anecdote. A friend of my wife is an immigrant from Mexico. He is also a veteran and a college graduate. His wife is of Asian descent. They were taking a walk Friday and were confronted by someone who told them to leave the country, called him stupid, and denigrated their mixed-race marriage. Verbally abused a vet on Veterans Day. Just another example of how Trump has emboldened racists. He really has to come out and condemn such actions.

Could have been worse, they could have thanked him for his service or, horrors!, asked him questions about where he served. (TIC)

[LA Ute]

Another anecdote. A friend of my wife is an immigrant from Mexico. He is also a veteran and a college graduate. His wife is of Asian descent. They were taking a walk Friday and were confronted by someone who told them to leave the country, called him stupid, and denigrated their mixed-race marriage. Verbally abused a vet on Veterans Day. Just another example of how Trump has emboldened racists. He really has to come out and condemn such actions.

Trump started this and now he needs to fix it. He's a master marketer so there's no excuse for him not taking steps.


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[LA Ute]

What kind of speaker fees you think Bill and Hillary Clinton will be able to command now? And will donations to the Clinton Foundation continue to be robust?

Sorry, couldn't resist.


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[pangloss]

But you're OUR liberal ideologue, dadgummit!
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Well, I appreciate that.

But I think of myself as a radical moderate. Everyone who has political positions to the left or right of me isn't necessarily wrong, they're just mistaken and need to heed moderation, heed to me.

So when does LA go bankrupt? My LA county cousin told me about Cal PERS. It sounds like a fiscal anchor to a not-so-stable ship.


cheers

[Irving Washington]

What kind of speaker fees you think Bill and Hillary Clinton will be able to command now? And will donations to the Clinton Foundation continue to be robust?

Sorry, couldn't resist.


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I have to think that they've bankrolled enough so that they're comfortable. My only question is whether Hillary, now with her political ambitions dead, will finally castrate Bill and send him on his way. The fact that she didn't do it in January of 2001 is why I haven't liked her.

[Irving Washington]

Well, I appreciate that.

But I think of myself as a radical moderate. Everyone who has political positions to the left or right of me isn't necessarily wrong, they're just mistaken and need to heed moderation, heed to me.

So when does LA go bankrupt? My LA county cousin told me about Cal PERS. It sounds like a fiscal anchor to a not-so-stable ship.


cheers
LA, move back to SLC!

[Irving Washington]

This may have already been discussed during the last week and I didn't focus on it, but a thought came to me (believe it or not.) A big part of the middle class vote for Trump came from those opposed to free trade, which those people feel threatens their livelihood. They were enthusiastically for Trump despite his tax plan that history shows will not benefit them. If a reversal on free trade and more tariffs don't benefit them will more decide that trickle down tax theory is something to actively oppose?

[pangloss]

What kind of speaker fees you think Bill and Hillary Clinton will be able to command now? And will donations to the Clinton Foundation continue to be robust?

Sorry, couldn't resist.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHe's 70 and she's 69, they worked pretty hard this year, and they have more money than they and several generations could spend, so I wouldn't be surprised if they slow down. WAPO wrote that Bill averaged $226K. Their speaking fees are comparable to the former Fed chair ($200K), former Treasury secretary ($200K), Larry Summers ($135K). But Hillary is a woman, so maybe her fees were out of wack.

I think the foundation will continue at near the current level. I hope so, it does a lot of good work around the world.




And no, the dig didn't go over my head.

The presumption of guilt toward the Clintons has been constant. They've been branded corrupt. The innuendo of a quid-pro-quo from speaking fees is the same old baseless smear. From Whitewater to Benghazi to email, it's been an unrelenting smear. The blow-back is that it resulted in Trump's election. I don't know if Trump was the desired result of the smear, but I think it's an unavoidable conclusion that he wouldn't have won if she had been treated fairly or even civilly over the decades. I guess some level of congratulations is in order to the 'vast right-wing conspiracy', or whomever, the smear worked.

And I know you didn't support him, but while we're looking at speaking fees, Forbes reported that in 2006 and 2007 Trump earned "$1.5 million per speech for a series of seminars in a private online learning company’s “real estate wealth expos” But that was different, it was just a private get-rich-quick scam.

I wonder how much Trump's kids will earn in the next four years. I suspect we'll never know since Trump and his organized family won't disclose their taxes and his company is private. And they're not in the cross-hairs of the Koch brothers, et.al.



cheers, no reason to appologize

[USS Utah]

From Whitewater to Benghazi to email, it's been an unrelenting smear. The blow-back is that it resulted in Trump's election. I don't know if Trump was the desired result of the smear, but I think it's an unavoidable conclusion that he wouldn't have won if she had been treated fairly or even civilly over the decades.

Two words: "Kill Romney"

The Democrats are not innocent when it comes to incivility in politics.

[LA Ute]

He's 70 and she's 69, they worked pretty hard this year, and they have more money than they and several generations could spend, so I wouldn't be surprised if they slow down. WAPO wrote that Bill averaged $226K. Their speaking fees are comparable to the former Fed chair ($200K), former Treasury secretary ($200K), Larry Summers ($135K). But Hillary is a woman, so maybe her fees were out of wack.

I think the foundation will continue at near the current level. I hope so, it does a lot of good work around the world.




And no, the dig didn't go over my head.

The presumption of guilt toward the Clintons has been constant. They've been branded corrupt. The innuendo of a quid-pro-quo from speaking fees is the same old baseless smear. From Whitewater to Benghazi to email, it's been an unrelenting smear. The blow-back is that it resulted in Trump's election. I don't know if Trump was the desired result of the smear, but I think it's an unavoidable conclusion that he wouldn't have won if she had been treated fairly or even civilly over the decades. I guess some level of congratulations is in order to the 'vast right-wing conspiracy', or whomever, the smear worked.

And I know you didn't support him, but while we're looking at speaking fees, Forbes reported that in 2006 and 2007 Trump earned "$1.5 million per speech for a series of seminars in a private online learning company’s “real estate wealth expos” But that was different, it was just a private get-rich-quick scam.

I wonder how much Trump's kids will earn in the next four years. I suspect we'll never know since Trump and his organized family won't disclose their taxes and his company is private. And they're not in the cross-hairs of the Koch brothers, et.al.



cheers, no reason to appologize

[Heavy sigh. Throws hands up. Mutters "what a mess."]


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[LA Ute]

I have to think that they've bankrolled enough so that they're comfortable. My only question is whether Hillary, now with her political ambitions dead, will finally castrate Bill and send him on his way. The fact that she didn't do it in January of 2001 is why I haven't liked her.

Well, for me one good result of this election is that the Clintons are gone from the stage, or at least from any position of power on the stage. I will not miss them.


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[pangloss]

Two words: "Kill Romney"
The Democrats are not innocent when it comes to incivility in politics.Yup, not innocent at all. Pres. Obama's reelection campaign tried to characterize Gov. Romney as 'weird', as a greedy tycoon, and out of touch with common folk - pretty standard fare, in my opinion. Am I mistaken?

The chant at every Trump rally "lock her up", the epithet "Killery" and "crooked Hillary" were unprecedented. I'm afraid the genie is now out of the bottle. Any hope for a return to civil, adult debate on issues and experience is lost.

For every turd in the next four years, "Thanks Trump" has a nice ring, nes pas?

[Irving Washington]

Yup, not innocent at all. Pres. Obama's reelection campaign tried to characterize Gov. Romney as 'weird', as a greedy tycoon, and out of touch with common folk - pretty standard fare, in my opinion. Am I mistaken?

The chant at every Trump rally "lock her up", the epithet "Killery" and "crooked Hillary" were unprecedented. I'm afraid the genie is now out of the bottle. Any hope for a return to civil, adult debate on issues and experience is lost.

For every turd in the next four years, "Thanks Trump" has a nice ring, nes pas?
My friend, let go. Anger is what got us to where we are now. Hope for the best, and remember, with age comes wisdom and the knowledge that there's so much we don't know. Hopefully it's not as bad as we think.

[pangloss]

[Heavy sigh. Throws hands up. Mutters "what a mess."]

Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYea, just venting a bit. Mess indeed.
I'm not optimistic, just hopeful that the country does well during Trump's reign, er... administration.

[pangloss]

My friend, let go. Anger is what got us to where we are now. Hope for the best, and remember, with age comes wisdom and the knowledge that there's so much we don't know. Hopefully it's not as bad as we think.Phases of grieving I think. I'm almost finished with anger and am transitioning to acceptance with a penchant for ridicule and a snide and surly attitude.

I'm older than dirt and still waiting for that touch of wisdom.

so it goes, dammit (see, progress)

[USS Utah]

Yup, not innocent at all. Pres. Obama's reelection campaign tried to characterize Gov. Romney as 'weird', as a greedy tycoon, and out of touch with common folk - pretty standard fare, in my opinion. Am I mistaken?

I did not find it standard fare when it came to religion. I also recall an ad that all but accused him of murder because someone was laid off at one of the companies he tried to save.

[LA Ute]

Really interesting analytics here:

These former Obama strongholds sealed the election for Trump

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/obama-trump-counties/?utm_content=buffer5d67c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[pangloss]

Really interesting analytics here:

These former Obama strongholds sealed the election for Trump

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/obama-trump-counties/?utm_content=buffer5d67c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Also good

How Trump won the presidency with razor-thin margins in swing states (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/swing-state-margins/)

[LA Ute]

Also good

How Trump won the presidency with razor-thin margins in swing states (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/2016-election/swing-state-margins/)

As Wellington described Waterloo, "It was a close-run thing."

[LA Ute]

Frank Bruni:

The Democrats Screwed Up
(http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/opinion/the-democrats-screwed-up.html)

We geniuses in the news media spent only the last month telling you how Donald Trump was losing this election. We spent the last year telling you how the Republican Party was unraveling.

And here we are, with the Democrats in tatters. You might want to think twice about our Oscar and Super Bowl predictions.

Despite all the discussion of demographic forces that doomed the G.O.P., it will soon control the presidency as well as both chambers of Congress and two of every three governor’s offices. And that’s not just a function of James Comey, Julian Assange and misogyny. Democrats who believe so are dangerously mistaken (http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/hillary-clinton-aides-loss-blame-231215).

[LA Ute]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161113/441fd105c71970fea7f51410eefe782e.jpg


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[Diehard Ute]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161113/441fd105c71970fea7f51410eefe782e.jpg


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Is this the oath or an ad for male enhancement?


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[LuckyUte]

Frank Bruni:

The Democrats Screwed Up
(http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/opinion/the-democrats-screwed-up.html)

One can easily understand the argument that the Republicans have done well and the Democrats are "in tatters". On the other hand, more actual people voted Democrat for President, Senators and Representatives this election, all while the Democrats ran an undeniably terrible candidate leading the ticket. So, what is going on? I don't know... certainly gerrymandering and the electoral college issues are in the mix. For now, it seems that we have two separate countries of people living side by side and they have grown and seem to be continuing to grow further apart.

[pangloss]

One can easily understand the argument that the Republicans have done well and the Democrats are "in tatters". On the other hand, more actual people voted Democrat for President, Senators and Representatives this election, all while the Democrats ran an undeniably terrible candidate leading the ticket. So, what is going on? I don't know... certainly gerrymandering and the electoral college issues are in the mix. For now, it seems that we have two separate countries of people living side by side and they have grown and seem to be continuing to grow further apart.It's hard to understate the closeness of the election. Clinton lost Michigan and Pennsylvania by a combined 80,000 votes out of 12.3 million cast. Jill Stein got 99,598 votes in those two states. If those 36 electoral votes had gone to Clinton she would have won by five.

I'm struggling to find a similar event with such wide ranging and, maybe, so many catastrophic consequences that turned on such a small factor. Nassim Taleb wrote the fascinating book 'The Black Swan: the impact of the highly improbable (https://books.google.com/books?id=tXiBZwEACAAJ&dq=isbn:9780141034591)' He doesn't write on politics in it (IIRC) but it discusses "The disproportionate role of high-profile, hard-to-predict, and rare events that are beyond the realm of normal expectations in history, science, finance, and technology." Trump's victory could prove to a black swan event in human history, in my humble opinion.

[U-Ute]

Watching the results that night, the electoral college wonks kept pointing out how, in certain counties in the traditionally Democratic base, HRC didn't do as well as Trump. Her numbers were down. Especially in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. Her campaign and the DNC did a bad job of getting their vote out. They ignored their blue states a bit too much.

[LA Ute]

I'm struggling to find a similar event with such wide ranging and, maybe, so many catastrophic consequences that turned on such a small factor. Nassim Taleb wrote the fascinating book 'The Black Swan: the impact of the highly improbable (https://books.google.com/books?id=tXiBZwEACAAJ&dq=isbn:9780141034591)' He doesn't write on politics in it (IIRC) but it discusses "The disproportionate role of high-profile, hard-to-predict, and rare events that are beyond the realm of normal expectations in history, science, finance, and technology." Trump's victory could prove to a black swan event in human history, in my humble opinion.

I have long thought Trump's candidacy was a Black Swan event, at least until he was nominated. It seems like other more prosaic electoral factors started to manifest themselves at that point. But it's arguable either way.

Regarding the narrowness of his margin in some states, I think it's important to remember that those were Democratic strongholds where he had no business even being close. I'm not extolling his win, just trying to understand it.

Also, the popular vote margin is pretty much a statistical tie. Again, not making a comment about the desirability of the outcome. That it was so close with 120+ million votes cast is itself remarkable. We'll never know the exact margin. For example, it's my understanding that states stop counting absentee ballots when the margin of victory in that state exceeds the number of absentee ballots remaining to be counted. I wish they'd count them all, because it'd be preferable to have a clear winner in the popular vote.


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[LA Ute]

The poli sci major in me can't get enough of this stuff:

How I missed the signs of a Trump win: Bill Sternberg

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/11/13/trump-win-how-i-missed-the-clues-bill-sternberg-column/93764654/

Fascinating.


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[U-Ute]

The KKK holding a post-election party and everyone who is white is invited.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ku-klux-klan-hold-north-230227525.html?ref=gs

[LA Ute]

This Washington Post analysis has more info for everyone's inner political science wonk:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/12/these-3-maps-show-just-how-dominant-republicans-are-in-america-after-tuesday/?tid=sm_tw

I was fascinated (I'm fascinated a lot this week) by the impact of voters self-segregating (mainly liberal voters, it seems, moving into large urban centers, which are inherently blue) and losing political impact that way. I am sure the pendulum will swing back the other direction sooner or later.


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[U-Ute]

Priebus named Chief of Staff.

Steve Bannion named chief strategist.

They just announced they were going to deport a bunch of immigrants. I can guess which group they will start with.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/election/trump-campaign-ceo-bannon-complained-jews-daughters-school-article-1.2767615?0p19G=c

[U-Ute]

This could get more interesting.

797976169765212160

[pangloss]

I have long thought Trump's candidacy was a Black Swan event, at least until he was nominated. It seems like other more prosaic electoral factors started to manifest themselves at that point. But it's arguable either way.

Regarding the narrowness of his margin in some states, I think it's important to remember that those were Democratic strongholds where he had no business even being close. I'm not extolling his win, just trying to understand it.

Also, the popular vote margin is pretty much a statistical tie. Again, not making a comment about the desirability of the outcome. That it was so close with 120+ million votes cast is itself remarkable. We'll never know the exact margin. For example, it's my understanding that states stop counting absentee ballots when the margin of victory in that state exceeds the number of absentee ballots remaining to be counted. I wish they'd count them all, because it'd be preferable to have a clear winner in the popular vote.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe popular vote difference I looked at has it at 630,000 votes with a bunch of absentee ballots left to counted in California. Not that it makes any difference, but that's a little more than statistical noise level. EDIT: that's 0.5%, so maybe that is essentially a popular vote tie.

This article indicates they count all the votes even after concession. Snopes: Who won the popular vote (http://www.snopes.com/2016/11/13/who-won-the-popular-vote/)

On 60 Minutes Trump said twice something to the effect he won comfortably. He has a curious grasp of reality. Maybe he's surrounded by a monarch-like retinue of sycophants who tell him what he wants to hear. His appartment looks like the French monarchy. The margin in Pennsylvania and Michigan was about 80,000 combined. If those two traditional D states had gone to Clinton, she would have won. I heard that Bill Clinton urged the campaign to hit those states and Wisconsin in the last two weeks to shore up their 'firewall' but the pro's didn't listen to him. They recognized there was trouble the last couple days and went to Philadelphia on Monday but couldn't overcome the Comey vote.

[pangloss]

This could get more interesting.

797976169765212160He looked a little shocky in the picture with President Obama. I think he had just learned a few of the realities of the job -- that President Obama works 16 to 18 hours per day, is on-call 24 hours/day, and works seven days/week. He's never lived in an old, drafty, no gold-leaf place like the White House apartment and he learned he will not be able to sleep in his own bed in his Manhattan apartment, even on weekends. And he learned he can't fly in his own airplane any longer or re-paint the exterior of Air Force One.

[NorthwestUteFan]

One can easily understand the argument that the Republicans have done well and the Democrats are "in tatters". On the other hand, more actual people voted Democrat for President, Senators and Representatives this election, all while the Democrats ran an undeniably terrible candidate leading the ticket. So, what is going on? I don't know... certainly gerrymandering and the electoral college issues are in the mix. For now, it seems that we have two separate countries of people living side by side and they have grown and seem to be continuing to grow further apart.
The other interesting dynamic is the Republicans just elected a person who is pro-LGBT rights and is for marriage equality, is pro-choice (up until this campaign season), tends to take the side against corporations on free trade, and historically has been anti-war.

I guess it will all depend on who he puts in the cabinet. Pangloss is correct, John Bolton at State will nearly guarantee boots on the ground in Iran. Hopefully he will put somebody at State who will pump the brakes with diplomacy.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Jose Rodriguez is likely to be the pick for CIA chief. He was the Waterboarder In Chief during the Bush administration. He also devised/organized the 'Black Sites' program, which became famous for detaining for years on end, people whose only crimes were having names similar to high-value targets.

Rodriguez is the person who destroyed classified videos of waterboarding sessions, a tremendous violation of federal law, and also was evidence of war crimes. The Bush administration refused to prosecute him, and as we recall Obama said he didn't want to worry about the past but would focus on the future.

He is one of the most deplorable people around, and now he gets to be considered for the top spot at CIA.

[LA Ute]

If Clinton had never set up and used a private email server while she was Secretary of State, and if she and her people had not dissembled incessantly about it while it was being investigated, including some of them taking the fifth amendment, then James Comey would never have been a factor in this election.


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[LA Ute]

I am more than dismayed at Steve Bannon's appointment.


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[Irving Washington]

The KKK holding a post-election party and everyone who is white is invited.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ku-klux-klan-hold-north-230227525.html?ref=gs

The other day my wife drove past the Muslim mosque in the Avenues. A number of male members were standing out front and people in cars driving by were shouting out curses. Women and children were being escorted out the back door.
One side of me says great- let this free speech manifest all the hate out there (to what degree we can all debate.) The other side of me feels horrible for the people living in fear. The one thing we can't do is minimize it. We have to confront it. It remains to be seen if Trump will.

[LA Ute]

The other day my wife drove past the Muslim mosque in the Avenues. A number of male members were standing out front and people in cars driving by were shouting out curses. Women and children were being escorted out the back door.
One side of me says great- let this free speech manifest all the hate out there (to what degree we can all debate.) The other side of me feels horrible for the people living in fear. The one thing we can't do is minimize it. We have to confront it. It remains to be seen if Trump will.

What the h*** is going on in SLC? That's awful. Do Trump supporters feel licensed now to harass Muslims just for being Muslims?

Is there concern there also about women's contraceptives? Seems like some needless panic going on in other places:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/11/upshot/no-birth-control-coverage-wont-go-away.html?smid=fb-nytscience&smtyp=cur&_r=0&referer=http://m.facebook.com


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[Dwight Schr-Ute]

What the h*** is going on in SLC? That's awful. Do Trump supporters feel licensed now to harass Muslims just for being Muslims?

Is there concern there also about women's contraceptives? Seems like some needless panic going on in other places:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/11/upshot/no-birth-control-coverage-wont-go-away.html?smid=fb-nytscience&smtyp=cur&_r=0&referer=http://m.facebook.com


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Thank you for keep it clean, LA.

[LA Ute]

Thank you for keep it clean, LA.

I almost said "heck."


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[LA Ute]

You can’t argue that she’s the ‘real’ winner of a game that neither candidate was playing.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/442170/hillary-clinton-popular-vote-victory-meaningless


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[Two Utes]

The other day my wife drove past the Muslim mosque in the Avenues. A number of male members were standing out front and people in cars driving by were shouting out curses. Women and children were being escorted out the back door.
One side of me says great- let this free speech manifest all the hate out there (to what degree we can all debate.) The other side of me feels horrible for the people living in fear. The one thing we can't do is minimize it. We have to confront it. It remains to be seen if Trump will.

Avenues? Shit, that's the most liberal part of the state.

[LA Ute]

A blast from the past:

John Oliver Urges Donald Trump to Run in 2016: ‘I Will Personally Write You a Campaign Check’ (Video)

http://www.thewrap.com/john-oliver-urges-donald-trump-run-2016-i-will-personally-write-you-campaign-check-video-108/

Can't blame Oliver too much. Back then we all thought the idea of President Trump was ludicrous.


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[pangloss]

If Clinton had never set up and used a private email server while she was Secretary of State, and if she and her people had not dissembled incessantly about it while it was being investigated, including some of them taking the fifth amendment, then James Comey would never have been a factor in this election.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk"It's like my father always said to me, he said to me, he said, Roseanna Roseanadana, it's always something. If it isn't one thing--it's another! It's always something." Gilda Radner, on SNL

The whitewater witch hunt and Ken Star's limitless budget and endless schedule dug until the digging found something, anything. The point of the investigation wasn't probable cause or a reasonable suspicion that a crime had been committed. The point was to get Clinton. And they did, they caught President Clinton lying about an affair. Star's investigation lasted 4.5 years and cost about $40 million. I don't want to re-litigate it (so to speak), who cares, this is my view, no opinions will change.

My point is, her experience with Starr's inquisition made her paranoid. As my mother used to say, "Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you" And, of course, it turns out the Republican Congress was out to get her. As the leading Democratic presidential figure on the national scene, the Republican Congress went after her, over and over, under the cover of Benghazi. They stumbled onto her email server which she and Bill bought, installed and paid someone to administer due to their well-earned paranoia. The Congressional Republicans constructed the server violation of State Department policies and procedures into a scandal. Trump exploited it leading his minions in the chant of 'lock her up', and won.

The server issue was the vehicle they rode, it cost her the election, and changed the course of history. Think of Trump as blow-back to the immoral, purely political, abuse of power, witch-hunt. But if they hadn't stumbled onto the server, it would have been something else, as Gilda said.

The blow-back to President Clinton's infidelity was Gore's defeat, Bush's victory, and ultimately the war in Iraq.

We'll see how benign or catastrophic blow-back of Trump turns out.

[pangloss]

Jose Rodriguez is likely to be the pick for CIA chief. He was the Waterboarder In Chief during the Bush administration. He also devised/organized the 'Black Sites' program, which became famous for detaining for years on end, people whose only crimes were having names similar to high-value targets.

Rodriguez is the person who destroyed classified videos of waterboarding sessions, a tremendous violation of federal law, and also was evidence of war crimes. The Bush administration refused to prosecute him, and as we recall Obama said he didn't want to worry about the past but would focus on the future.

He is one of the most deplorable people around, and now he gets to be considered for the top spot at CIA.I wonder if we will return to extraordinary rendition of bad guys to black sites or Gitmo and enhanced interrogation.

President Obama's preference for Hellfire missiles launched from Predator UAVs isn't exactly touchy-feely. But torture and intentionally killing family members is a war crime.

[Rocker Ute]

"It's like my father always said to me, he said to me, he said, Roseanna Roseanadana, it's always something. If it isn't one thing--it's another! It's always something." Gilda Radner, on SNL

The whitewater witch hunt and Ken Star's limitless budget and endless schedule dug until the digging found something, anything. The point of the investigation wasn't probable cause or a reasonable suspicion that a crime had been committed. The point was to get Clinton. And they did, they caught President Clinton lying about an affair. Star's investigation lasted 4.5 years and cost about $40 million. I don't want to re-litigate it (so to speak), who cares, this is my view, no opinions will change.

My point is, her experience with Starr's inquisition made her paranoid. As my mother used to say, "Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you" And, of course, it turns out the Republican Congress was out to get her. As the leading Democratic presidential figure on the national scene, the Republican Congress went after her, over and over, under the cover of Benghazi. They stumbled onto her email server which she and Bill bought, installed and paid someone to administer due to their well-earned paranoia. The Congressional Republicans constructed the server violation of State Department policies and procedures into a scandal. Trump exploited it leading his minions in the chant of 'lock her up', and won.

The server issue was the vehicle they rode, it cost her the election, and changed the course of history. Think of Trump as blow-back to the immoral, purely political, abuse of power, witch-hunt. But if they hadn't stumbled onto the server, it would have been something else, as Gilda said.

The blow-back to President Clinton's infidelity was Gore's defeat, Bush's victory, and ultimately the war in Iraq.

We'll see how benign or catastrophic blow-back of Trump turns out.

Now wait a minute... first of all a recap, I've called the Clinton email thing a non-story and I voted for her, so some perspective that I'm not out to just bash her.

Excusing what she did with her server as a result of paranoia is a little silly, don't you think? I believe you are familiar with government regulations, and so to bypass them willfully because of fear of inquisition seems a dubious. I'll buy she didn't understand the extent of the danger of what she was doing, and I'll buy that she did it because the existing antiquated government systems were so difficult to use they had to bypass it, but I won't accept that she did it because she was paranoid of the inquisition.

99% of America couldn't tell you if their email is secure or safe, so okay (and guess what folks, it likely isn't). But also, all of us get the notion of personal and company email. I think Comey's assessment was right, she screwed up in a big big way, yet the case likely wouldn't get prosecuted. He was right, not with Loretta Lynch hanging out with Bill Clinton in the airport, and certainly because it didn't qualify as the biggest crime on the planet. And so it was time to let it pass.

For those comparing what she did to Patraeus, he was giving away top top secret stuff to his girlfriend. Clinton was talking the lowest level of classified information and sending across unsecure channels. Two very different things.

However it does bother me that Clinton is now saying she lost because of Comey. Only she is responsible for using a private server.

The truth is, the more I learn about Comey and that whole situation the more I believe that he might be the only honest person in this whole situation. Remind me to tell you of a time when he was only a second tier dude in the AG office and stood up to Cheney and Rumsfeld trying to do a VERY sleazy thing. He is no Republican puppet.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I agree. And now we have somebody who is 10X worse in charge of the drones.

As for the emails, there were 9 email chains with ~100 emails which were questionable (i.e. contained a number of individual pieces of data which were unclassified, but when combined could perhaps be considered classified depending on the derivative - and any ADC will tell you how convoluted the task of classifying data can be).

The FBI also found that no classified info was moved off the State Dept servers to the personal server, and thus there was no reason to believe that any classified data was ever compromised. In the words of Comey, no reasonable prosecutor would ever bring the case to trial.

There never was any there, there.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Is there concern there also about women's contraceptives? Seems like some needless panic going on in other places:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/11/upshot/no-birth-control-coverage-wont-go-away.html?smid=fb-nytscience&smtyp=cur&_r=0&referer=http://m.facebook.com


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Pence was the governor of Indiana when he turned it into RFRA-stan. One of his other claims to fame was an attempt to ban insurance companies from paying for contraceptives and (in particular) elective sterilization procedures.

[NorthwestUteFan]

The other day my wife drove past the Muslim mosque in the Avenues. A number of male members were standing out front and people in cars driving by were shouting out curses. Women and children were being escorted out the back door.
One side of me says great- let this free speech manifest all the hate out there (to what degree we can all debate.) The other side of me feels horrible for the people living in fear. The one thing we can't do is minimize it. We have to confront it. It remains to be seen if Trump will.
I think the important thing to do in this climate is to actively stand up to this kind of shitty behavior. Vulnerable populations need more help now than ever.

[Rocker Ute]

So this article recaps what Comey did very well I think:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/07/hillary-clinton-email-server-fbi-james-comey-investigation-campaign-state-department-justice-loretta-lynch-214013

The second round of emails and the announcement fits into his determined approach for extraordinary transparency. They also worked their butts off to make sure that they filtered it all before the election was done. I frankly don't know what else he could have done.

[USS Utah]

Donald Trump on Sunday told his supporters to stop harassing minorities, in his first televised sit-down interview since becoming President-elect. "I am so saddened to hear that," Trump told CBS' Lesley Stahl on "60 Minutes" when she said Latinos and Muslims are facing harassment. "And I say, 'Stop it.' If it -- if it helps, I will say this, and I will say right to the cameras: 'Stop it.'"

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/13/politics/donald-trump-60-minutes-first-interview/index.html

[LA Ute]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqEddipbpkw

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

Donald Trump on Sunday told his supporters to stop harassing minorities, in his first televised sit-down interview since becoming President-elect. "I am so saddened to hear that," Trump told CBS' Lesley Stahl on "60 Minutes" when she said Latinos and Muslims are facing harassment. "And I say, 'Stop it.' If it -- if it helps, I will say this, and I will say right to the cameras: 'Stop it.'"

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/13/politics/donald-trump-60-minutes-first-interview/index.html

And then he gave a job to Steve Bannon.

[USS Utah]

And then he gave a job to Steve Bannon.

One step forward, two steps back.

[pangloss]

Now wait a minute... first of all a recap, I've called the Clinton email thing a non-story and I voted for her, so some perspective that I'm not out to just bash her.

Excusing what she did with her server as a result of paranoia is a little silly, don't you think? I believe you are familiar with government regulations, and so to bypass them willfully because of fear of inquisition seems a dubious. I'll buy she didn't understand the extent of the danger of what she was doing, and I'll buy that she did it because the existing antiquated government systems were so difficult to use they had to bypass it, but I won't accept that she did it because she was paranoid of the inquisition.

99% of America couldn't tell you if their email is secure or safe, so okay (and guess what folks, it likely isn't). But also, all of us get the notion of personal and company email. I think Comey's assessment was right, she screwed up in a big big way, yet the case likely wouldn't get prosecuted. He was right, not with Loretta Lynch hanging out with Bill Clinton in the airport, and certainly because it didn't qualify as the biggest crime on the planet. And so it was time to let it pass.

For those comparing what she did to Patraeus, he was giving away top top secret stuff to his girlfriend. Clinton was talking the lowest level of classified information and sending across unsecure channels. Two very different things.

However it does bother me that Clinton is now saying she lost because of Comey. Only she is responsible for using a private server.

The truth is, the more I learn about Comey and that whole situation the more I believe that he might be the only honest person in this whole situation. Remind me to tell you of a time when he was only a second tier dude in the AG office and stood up to Cheney and Rumsfeld trying to do a VERY sleazy thing. He is no Republican puppet.Yea, hell I don't know. The 'paranoia' theory is an attempt to explain why they would want their own server. The theory is that they wanted to keep it all under their control. If they were to run it on the State Gov servers, they figured some SOB, like Chaffetz, would get his hands on it sooner or later.

So yea, that's my unifying theory. It lets me blame it on Republicans.


cheers

[pangloss]

The truth is, the more I learn about Comey and that whole situation the more I believe that he might be the only honest person in this whole situation. Remind me to tell you of a time when he was only a second tier dude in the AG office and stood up to Cheney and Rumsfeld trying to do a VERY sleazy thing. He is no Republican puppet.Yea, I remember the Ashcroft hospital story. I think that's what got him the job. I'm into conspiracies lately, so I'll speculate that there's something else to his original letter 11 days before Armageddon. My guess is (did I write this here before?) that he was pressured by someone in Congress to release a letter after he made a courtesy call telling them of Weiner's PC. Getting embroiled in the campaign was a bone-head move, honest or not.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Yea, hell I don't know. The 'paranoia' theory is an attempt to explain why they would want their own server. The theory is that they wanted to keep it all under their control. If they were to run it on the State Gov servers, they figured some SOB, like Chaffetz, would get his hands on it sooner or later.

So yea, that's my unifying theory. It lets me blame it on Republicans.


cheers

Chaffetz should know all about private servers. He uses one himself.

One of the biggest challenges for IT in DC is convincing politicians and bureaucrats give up their Crackberries.

[#1 Utefan]

Chaffetz should know all about private servers. He uses one himself.

One of the biggest challenges for IT in DC is convincing politicians and bureaucrats give up their Crackberries.

A lot of whining going on in this thread. So you guys want to excuse her handling of her email servers away, huh? She has no personal.accountability here even though she knew full well her high level security clearance wouldn't allow such a thing. Fine.

How about her Foundation? As secretary of state and pending presidential candidate, isn't accepting millions of dollars from foreign governments the very definition of conflict of interest (some would also say racketeering)? Can't wait to hear the spin on this one....

[Diehard Ute]

A lot of whining going on in this thread. So you guys want to excuse her handling of her email servers away, huh? She has no personal.accountability here even though she knew full well her high level security clearance wouldn't allow such a thing. Fine.

How about her Foundation? As secretary of state and pending presidential candidate, isn't accepting millions of dollars from foreign governments the very definition of conflict of interest (some would also say racketeering)? Can't wait to hear the spin on this one....

Yeah and Trump doesn't have that last problem at all hahahahahaha


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[Ma'ake]

#1 Utefan - Clinton lost. As a Democrat, I'm OK with Clinton losing, not sorry to see the end of the Clinton era. She may or may not be locked up. If that happens, it would be a diversionary tactic. (Huh? Read on...)

What we're seeing is a Rope-a-Dope, mostly on the Republicans, but increasingly, on the nation, as a whole.

Review the GOP's relationship with Trump:

In the primaries, many Republicans were aghast at Trump's outrageous name calling, belittling the other candidates, insulting John McCain. Then he whittled them all down and became the nominee. Politics-as-usual was changed, certainly.

There was talk of nudging him aside at the convention. But the power of his base was undeniably strong, and the "replace Trump" idea fizzled.

Then he insulted the Gold Star family and GOP insiders again were aghast, and had emergency meetings on how he might be replaced on ballots, they feared the could lose the White House, the Senate, and maybe even the House.

Then "the tape", then Comey... and last week, Hillary was vanquished, her supporters crushed... Republicans were both relieved, and ecstatic, on Cloud 9. The GOP strategy to "support, with reservations" paid off in a big way, bigger than they ever imagined. The Supreme Court would be saved, for a generation, maybe more.

AND, Trump spoke calmly, reasonably, even in a "presidential" manner. Maybe the weight of the office has humbled the man, perhaps the Lord intervenes and changes people. Trump on 60 Minutes sounded like a changed man. Humble, practical, but determined to fulfill his promises.

We may not deport all 11 million illegals, there are a couple of aspects of Obamacare that are worth keeping. OK, this doesn't look *that* bad. Hillary's supporters are throwing tantrums, they'll get over it.

Then he tabbed Bannon for a very high position, and while everyone reacted to that, the Kremlin announced (yesterday) that Putin and Trump have spoken, and intend to improve relations between their two nations. To those who think I'm emotionally connecting the dots, a few days ago the Russian foreign minister admitted Russia had been talking with the Trump campaign during the campaign, after Trump's campaign emphatically denied there was any contact. "We offered the same opportunity with the Clinton campaign, but they refused".

Think about how far Republicans have moved, from their initial outrage to quiet embrace, even gratitude. Jason Chaffetz is the perfect example. Reservations... then support... then public repudiation and withdrawal of support... then re-endorsement... now, victorious, and may proceed with the Clinton hearings, after all.... but if he doesn't, he's a real statesman.

Clinton may become highly useful to prosecute - to Trump, and to Bannon... as a diversion. Trump could say that justice demands she be prosecuted, the Benghazi families deserve their say. (Watch what else is going on, if this happens.) Then Trump would turn magnanimous

Bannon is a strategic thinker, I'll give him that. The man knows how to use media and public reaction to alter the landscape, alter people's centers.

It's now a week since the election. It took me about 5 milliseconds to get over Clinton losing, because I really didn't want to see her face for four years.

Look up Bannon and the Alt-Right movement. And look at how Republicans are hem-hawing and seeking to give Trump and Bannon the benefit of the doubt. Kevin McCarthy finally admitted that if Bannon really did run a headline that said Gabby Giffords was a human shield for gun control maybe that was inappropriate.

Outrage, then relent. Outrage, then relent.

Muhammed Ali would be impressed by this rope-a-dope.

[NorthwestUteFan]

A lot of whining going on in this thread. So you guys want to excuse her handling of her email servers away, huh? She has no personal.accountability here even though she knew full well her high level security clearance wouldn't allow such a thing. Fine.

How about her Foundation? As secretary of state and pending presidential candidate, isn't accepting millions of dollars from foreign governments the very definition of conflict of interest (some would also say racketeering)? Can't wait to hear the spin on this one....

The facts simply do not support either of these assertions.

[Rocker Ute]

I'll be honest, I've been a little surprised by the reaction of the left on this (I fall more in your camp, Ma'ake, in how I feel about it all - one sleepless night and I've moved on). But after watching the right whine about Obama for 8 years, I feel like the left is much worse. Everything is going to cause outrage. Every appointment is going to be the worst ever. Everything is going to cause a temper tantrum.

If nothing else I've learned the left and right are no different at all.


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[U-Ute]

I think the important thing to do in this climate is to actively stand up to this kind of shitty behavior. Vulnerable populations need more help now than ever.

It will be interesting to see what happens when these people to exercise their Second Amendment rights and arm themselves. Will people be terrified of a Mosque full of scared people with guns or will they be supported?

[NorthwestUteFan]

Yesterday Marine Le Pen (look her up) admitted that Russia have her cash, and that Putin has been supporting right-wing candidates to shape key governments around the world. One can only guess at ultimate goal, but it isn't hard to assume that a major goal is to weaken NATO to allow him to consolidate power and retake former Bloc countries.

The Ukraine was poised to join NATO when they were invaded Russia. As we know, a nation is not allowed to join NATO is they are currently involved in any action or border skirmishes.

This is over reason we should terrified of Trump's rhetoric talking about weakening NATO and working much more closely with Russia.

I am not opposed to having closer ties with Russia, and with having free(-ish) trade with them. But we need to be very aware of the Bear taking over all of the oil-rich neighbors.

And the USA, Great Britain, France, Israel, and perhaps Germany are going to cheer it on.

[Rocker Ute]

Yesterday Marine Le Pen (look her up) admitted that Russia have her cash, and that Putin has been supporting right-wing candidates to shape key governments around the world. One can only guess at ultimate goal, but it isn't hard to assume that a major goal is to weaken NATO to allow him to consolidate power and retake former Bloc countries.

The Ukraine was poised to join NATO when they were invaded Russia. As we know, a nation is not allowed to join NATO is they are currently involved in any action or border skirmishes.

This is over reason we should terrified of Trump's rhetoric talking about weakening NATO and working much more closely with Russia.

I am not opposed to having closer ties with Russia, and with having free(-ish) trade with them. But we need to be very aware of the Bear taking over all of the oil-rich neighbors.

And the USA, Great Britain, France, Israel, and perhaps Germany are going to cheer it on.

Hey, the 80s called and wants their foreign policy back. ;)

Just kidding, I agree with what you say here.

[pangloss]

Excusing what she did with her server as a result of paranoia is a little silly, don't you think? I believe you are familiar with government regulations, and so to bypass them willfully because of fear of inquisition seems a dubious. I'll buy she didn't understand the extent of the danger of what she was doing, and I'll buy that she did it because the existing antiquated government systems were so difficult to use they had to bypass it, but I won't accept that she did it because she was paranoid of the inquisition.
I didn't mean to excuse her use of the server, just understand why she did it. It was a bone-headed mistake. Her explanation that she didn't want to carry two devices sounds contrived. She had an entourage to carry her stuff and could afford a large purse. So, I think she didn't trust the State Dept IT folks to keep her communications private. I think she was justifiably paranoid. Plus, she was already using the Clinton server, it was under their direct control, she felt it was secure, and probably thought the department policy didn't apply to her. But who knows, it's just speculation.

Adding a little perspective, her classified communications were conducted via secure cable, of course. 251,000 of those and earlier classified cable communications generated over a 40 year span were stolen by sweet little private Manning. He gave them to self-proclaimed-hero-of-the-people and rape suspect, Julian Assange & Wikileaks. Congress barely coughed over that hemorrhage of classified information even though the release hurt the country, a lot. There were no political points to gain. The 30,000 personal, unclassified, classified-after-the-fact, and three improperly classified email messages were kept secure until Congress got their hands on them and selectively leaked them over time for political gain. Congress and the FBI kept that issue alive through the election. And our dear leader-elect wants to 'lock her up' over it.

George Orwell would be proud.

[pangloss]

Chaffetz should know all about private servers. He uses one himself.

One of the biggest challenges for IT in DC is convincing politicians and bureaucrats give up their Crackberries.It isn't even private, it's commercial - gmail. He's a putz.

[Rocker Ute]

I didn't mean to excuse her use of the server, just understand why she did it. It was a bone-headed mistake. Her explanation that she didn't want to carry two devices sounds contrived. She had an entourage to carry her stuff and could afford a large purse. So, I think she didn't trust the State Dept IT folks to keep her communications private. I think she was justifiably paranoid. Plus, she was already using the Clinton server, it was under their direct control, she felt it was secure, and probably thought the department policy didn't apply to her. But who knows, it's just speculation.

Adding a little perspective, her classified communications were conducted via secure cable, of course. 251,000 of those and earlier classified cable communications generated over a 40 year span were stolen by sweet little private Manning. He gave them to self-proclaimed-hero-of-the-people and rape suspect, Julian Assange & Wikileaks. Congress barely coughed over that hemorrhage of classified information even though the release hurt the country, a lot. There were no political points to gain. The 30,000 personal, unclassified, classified-after-the-fact, and three improperly classified email messages were kept secure until Congress got their hands on them and selectively leaked them over time for political gain. Congress and the FBI kept that issue alive through the election. And our dear leader-elect wants to 'lock her up' over it.

The country's broken.

I think you and I are on the same page with the exception of the motivation and what you said about Private Manning is spot on. Clinton's indescretions aren't even on the same remote scale as what Patreaus did (and in the past I've put this as a non-story).

So having talked to some people who have various security clearances, the government system is antiquated and difficult/very inconvenient to use. Sometimes in security when too many walls get put up to keep info secure it actually compromises it. When it gets difficult to use you work your way around it. I remember consulting a company who had invested all of this money into networking and infrastructure for sharing data. It had so much obstructionist security on it (for info that really didn't need to be that secure) that people had just gone on the side and set up dropbox accounts everywhere.

Almost all of us do it in one form. The bank has weird standards for passwords and so you end up writing it down and sticking it on your desk or embedding it in your reminder questions or whatever.

I can get not wanting to carry two phones too and have to switch between the two depending on what communication you wanted to do.

Anyway, neither here nor there. Time to let the emails and Benghazi die in my humble opinion. But in the same, Hillary just needs to take responsibility and instead of blaming Comey for her loss just admit that she 'committed the crime' and paid the consequences for it and then recognize her neglect of the rust belt cost her an easy win.

[NorthwestUteFan]

It isn't even private, it's commercial - gmail. He's a putz.
And that is enormously unsecured. His password is "KickerzRule1234".

[NorthwestUteFan]

Hey, the 80s called and wants their foreign policy back. ;)

Just kidding, I agree with what you say here.
I hope I am enormously wrong.

[Ma'ake]

I'll be honest, I've been a little surprised by the reaction of the left on this (I fall more in your camp, Ma'ake, in how I feel about it all - one sleepless night and I've moved on). But after watching the right whine about Obama for 8 years, I feel like the left is much worse. Everything is going to cause outrage. Every appointment is going to be the worst ever. Everything is going to cause a temper tantrum.

If nothing else I've learned the left and right are no different at all.

Maybe I have my blinders on, but after Obama was elected, did "left wing" kids harass white kids, or Christian kids? Maybe it was actually a widespread problem, but only Breitbart carried those stories (?)

Gov Herbert said that harassing Mexican and Muslim kids was not acceptable and needs to stop, and one responder discounted the issue altogether, saying it was either fabricated, or exaggerated, because the teachers union supports Democrats, and the teachers are trying to discredit good Americans, etc.

Really?

[#1 Utefan]

The facts simply do not support either of these assertions.

I didn't realize you are in the FBI's hierarchy and are privvy to that type of information.

Your personal feelings aside, when you are secretary of state and then run for President of the United States, if you run a foundation and are taking millions of dollars from foreign governments and entities, that is a clear conflict of interest whether you want to admit it or not.

[Ma'ake]

I didn't realize you are in the FBI's hierarchy and are privvy to that type of information.

Your personal feelings aside, when you are secretary of state and then run for President of the United States, if you run a foundation and are taking millions of dollars from foreign governments and entities, that is a clear conflict of interest whether you want to admit it or not.

I'm glad Clinton lost.

Why do Trump's kids need top level security clearance? Do you think that's a little weird? Are they going to be bunking at the White House?

Tell us, #1 Utefan, what is your opinion of Steve Bannon and the Alt Right?

[pangloss]

So having talked to some people who have various security clearances, the government system is antiquated and difficult/very inconvenient to use.

Yup.

A few years ago I had a proposal support consulting company approach me for a gig. I'm retired now, but was a consultant for cost proposals. They had a client working a classified proposal and needed cost proposal & pricing help. My clearance expired years ago and it was TS if I remember right. It was a short fuze - four or five weeks. I was perfect for their requirements and they had deep pockets. We made a bunch of calls to the sponsoring agency, to my former employer, and to other companies that had more recently rooted around in my background to get me a lower level clearance. Nothing worked to get it accelerated. It would take two months to get the clearance, well after the proposal deadline.

So we tried to get sort of a general use clearance so I could work on the next proposal that came down the tube. The agency let me know I must have a request from a company with an immediate need in order for them to process the background check. Catch 22 - can't get cleared without an immediate proposal need, the check takes a couple months, proposals usually have four to six week lead time.

The other thing I did was help configure and implement software after a sales geek made the sale and got the commission. I had the opportunity to work with IT security folks at the US Air Force, US Navy, UK MOD, BAE in the UK and US, Lockheed Martin in the UK and US, Boeing, Booz Allen, GD Arabia and others. Some outsourced their IT to shops like CSC. IT security folks are on my $hit (is that OK LA?) list. First, they can't accept each others work. So even though Lockheed spent a year verifying our software was safe & secure and their IT folks would confirm it, that didn't mean squat. The outsource shops like CSC are awful. They lock up their client's PCs so tight the users lack the rights to see their own noses (so to speak).

Anyway, I don't care now. I'm retired.

[Rocker Ute]

Maybe I have my blinders on, but after Obama was elected, did "left wing" kids harass white kids, or Christian kids? Maybe it was actually a widespread problem, but only Breitbart carried those stories (?)

Gov Herbert said that harassing Mexican and Muslim kids was not acceptable and needs to stop, and one responder discounted the issue altogether, saying it was either fabricated, or exaggerated, because the teachers union supports Democrats, and the teachers are trying to discredit good Americans, etc.

Really?

It would seem neither side is immune from hate:

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/11/12/chicago-man-attacked-beaten-you-voted-trump-orig-vstop-dlewis.cnn

This is all pretty crazy.

As to your question I guess I wasn't speaking on the level of harassment as I don't believe people doing that sort of thing represents the beliefs of even a small percentage of either side. I was more talking about how when Obama was president each appointment and policy was being shouted about as the worst thing ever by the right. Now it has switched and everything is now the worst thing ever by the left. It's an incessant contest to shout over the other person.

But back to the left bullying the right (because we just elected a bully on the right), I think it happened in a different way. We've talked about colleges suppressing speech and views they've deemed harmful. Some on the left if someone disagreed with Obama would immediately label them as racist, hate-filled or a bigot. It was a different kind of bullying but with the similar results. Can you imagine a white middle class male getting up in college and saying he opposed abortion today? Oh my.

Again, I'm not talking about violence but discourse. I guess I've learned there are different ways to intimidate people.

I'm glad the discourse here has avoided that mostly.




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[pangloss]

I didn't realize you are in the FBI's hierarchy and are privy to that type of information.

Your personal feelings aside, when you are secretary of state and then run for President of the United States, if you run a foundation and are taking millions of dollars from foreign governments and entities, that is a clear conflict of interest whether you want to admit it or not.So, you are in the FBI hierarchy? If so, or you have access, I'll concede the point.

But your allegation that the Sec. Clinton had an organizational conflict of interest due to the donations of foreign entities to the Clinton Foundation is speculation. Sec. Clinton and the Clinton Foundation are not the same thing. The conflict of interest allegations and the allegations of crimes of pay-to-play were presented during the course of a political campaign by organizations with dubious claims of objectivity - like the Trump campaign.

The FBI didn't find crimes and they looked pretty hard. So why believe the Trump campaign and not the FBI?

cheers, just being snide

[LA Ute]

Craziness:

"The Texas Department of Public Safety says it arrested 6 members of a local communist group, Red Guards Austin, for assaulting pro-Trump members in Sunday's protest."

http://valleycentral.com/news/local/anti-trump-protests-continue-at-the-capitol

Good grief.




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[USS Utah]

#1 Utefan - Clinton lost. As a Democrat, I'm OK with Clinton losing, not sorry to see the end of the Clinton era. She may or may not be locked up. If that happens, it would be a diversionary tactic. (Huh? Read on...)

What we're seeing is a Rope-a-Dope, mostly on the Republicans, but increasingly, on the nation, as a whole.

Review the GOP's relationship with Trump:

In the primaries, many Republicans were aghast at Trump's outrageous name calling, belittling the other candidates, insulting John McCain. Then he whittled them all down and became the nominee. Politics-as-usual was changed, certainly.

There was talk of nudging him aside at the convention. But the power of his base was undeniably strong, and the "replace Trump" idea fizzled.

Then he insulted the Gold Star family and GOP insiders again were aghast, and had emergency meetings on how he might be replaced on ballots, they feared the could lose the White House, the Senate, and maybe even the House.

Then "the tape", then Comey... and last week, Hillary was vanquished, her supporters crushed... Republicans were both relieved, and ecstatic, on Cloud 9. The GOP strategy to "support, with reservations" paid off in a big way, bigger than they ever imagined. The Supreme Court would be saved, for a generation, maybe more.

AND, Trump spoke calmly, reasonably, even in a "presidential" manner. Maybe the weight of the office has humbled the man, perhaps the Lord intervenes and changes people. Trump on 60 Minutes sounded like a changed man. Humble, practical, but determined to fulfill his promises.

We may not deport all 11 million illegals, there are a couple of aspects of Obamacare that are worth keeping. OK, this doesn't look *that* bad. Hillary's supporters are throwing tantrums, they'll get over it.

Then he tabbed Bannon for a very high position, and while everyone reacted to that, the Kremlin announced (yesterday) that Putin and Trump have spoken, and intend to improve relations between their two nations. To those who think I'm emotionally connecting the dots, a few days ago the Russian foreign minister admitted Russia had been talking with the Trump campaign during the campaign, after Trump's campaign emphatically denied there was any contact. "We offered the same opportunity with the Clinton campaign, but they refused".

Think about how far Republicans have moved, from their initial outrage to quiet embrace, even gratitude. Jason Chaffetz is the perfect example. Reservations... then support... then public repudiation and withdrawal of support... then re-endorsement... now, victorious, and may proceed with the Clinton hearings, after all.... but if he doesn't, he's a real statesman.

Clinton may become highly useful to prosecute - to Trump, and to Bannon... as a diversion. Trump could say that justice demands she be prosecuted, the Benghazi families deserve their say. (Watch what else is going on, if this happens.) Then Trump would turn magnanimous

Bannon is a strategic thinker, I'll give him that. The man knows how to use media and public reaction to alter the landscape, alter people's centers.

It's now a week since the election. It took me about 5 milliseconds to get over Clinton losing, because I really didn't want to see her face for four years.

Look up Bannon and the Alt-Right movement. And look at how Republicans are hem-hawing and seeking to give Trump and Bannon the benefit of the doubt. Kevin McCarthy finally admitted that if Bannon really did run a headline that said Gabby Giffords was a human shield for gun control maybe that was inappropriate.

Outrage, then relent. Outrage, then relent.

Muhammed Ali would be impressed by this rope-a-dope.

I do not desire to embrace Trump, quietly or otherwise. However, he is the president-elect, and if it was wrong to hope for Obama's failure 8 years ago, it has to be just as wrong to hope for Trump's failure -- after all, as the argument went, if he fails, the nation fails. At this point we seem to have two or three choices: hope he fails, wait and see, and give the man a chance.

[USS Utah]

It isn't even private, it's commercial - gmail. He's a putz.

Is there not a difference between setting up you own private server and simply using a commercial gmail or yahoo account? It might not be a significant difference depending on how they are used, but I believe there is a difference.

[USS Utah]

I'm glad Clinton lost.

Why do Trump's kids need top level security clearance? Do you think that's a little weird? Are they going to be bunking at the White House?

I just saw that. It makes no sense, his kids have no "need to know" about anything that would require a security clearance. It is another sigh that he is in over his head.

[pangloss]

Craziness:

"The Texas Department of Public Safety says it arrested 6 members of a local communist group, Red Guards Austin, for assaulting pro-Trump members in Sunday's protest."

http://valleycentral.com/news/local/anti-trump-protests-continue-at-the-capitol

Good grief.




Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkRed Guard? Lord, it is the 1980's.

Nice looking group. They could be bikers, nazis, commies or meth addicts.
Yikes, I sound like one of those old bastards that called me a hippie in the 70's.

[pangloss]

Is there not a difference between setting up you own private server and simply using a commercial gmail or yahoo account? It might not be a significant difference depending on how they are used, but I believe there is a difference.Oh, I don't know, neither is secure and should never be used for classified data.

[USS Utah]

Oh, I don't know, neither is secure and should never be used for classified data.

Absolutely. In that sense there is no real difference.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I just saw that. It makes no sense, his kids have no "need to know" about anything that would require a security clearance. It is another sigh that he is in over his head.
What is worse, they will be running his companies for him. This would be an unbelievably bad conflict of interest.

[U-Ute]

Elizabeth Warren already chiding Trump for his transition team choices.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/elizabeth-warren-sends-donald-trump-letter-criticizing-transition-teams-wall-street-ties-1479256618

Here is the full PDF (http://www.warren.senate.gov/files/documents/2016-11-15-Trump_Letter.pdf)

[UtahsMrSports]

I get a kick out of trump waking up early in the morning to go on a twitter rant against the new york times (his second such rant in four days). and by "a kick" I mean "this is kind of amusing but has the potential to be disastorous!'

In 8 years as president, how often has President Obama (who I consider mediocre) gone after people like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity for specific things theyve said? And those guys devoted almost their entire three hours shows to bash him, often with information that was so far off the honest path that it was laughable. I get thats it a different medium with different spheres of influence but still. This is sooooo petty.

Stuff like this only helps the cottage industry, hyper partisan click bait folks. As trump supporters turn from legitimate news sources like the new york times to this garbage, it only widens the divide and hampers real discussion of the issues.

[UtahsMrSports]

2016

Just look at these! Picking a cabinet is now a game show! 'Coming up after the break, more results!'

That tweet at the top, Im just surprised he didn't follow that up with a 'my dad could beat up the new york times' dad' hot take.

[Two Utes]

2016

Just look at these! Picking a cabinet is now a game show! 'Coming up after the break, more results!'

That tweet at the top, Im just surprised he didn't follow that up with a 'my dad could beat up the new york times' dad' hot take.

I actually think most of it is pretty good information for the public. He shoudln't need ot rant on the New York Times, and say things like typically and "totally wrong", but that's the way he talks. But as a citizen, thank you for the info Donald.

[LA Ute]

Elizabeth Warren already chiding Trump for his transition team choices.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/elizabeth-warren-sends-donald-trump-letter-criticizing-transition-teams-wall-street-ties-1479256618

Here is the full PDF (http://www.warren.senate.gov/files/documents/2016-11-15-Trump_Letter.pdf)

Looks like she will now be the left's voice of against Trump, at least until Schumer is officially the new Senate minority leader.

[pangloss]

I get a kick out of trump waking up early in the morning to go on a twitter rant against the new york times (his second such rant in four days). and by "a kick" I mean "this is kind of amusing but has the potential to be disastorous!'

Way back when, Nixon had a war with the print media, primarily the New York Times and the Washington Post. His surrogates, Att. Gen John Mitchell, his wife the nut (forgot her name) and felon VP Spiro Agnew bad mouthed them at every chance.

On Tuesday, the Times published a throw-away story, 'Firings and Discord Put Trump Transition Team in a State of Disarray' (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/16/us/politics/trump-transition.html?action=click&contentCollection=Politics&module=RelatedCoverage&region=EndOfArticle&pgtype=article) Disarray? It's been one week since the election. Trump fired Christie and put Pence in charge of the transition. That requires some documents be signed that had not been. A hiccup. So the Govt bureaucracy couldn't legally interact with the Trump folks yet - not exactly an earth shaking event. But there are some important aspects - like Trump taking calls from world leaders without briefings from the Dept of State. With his vast experience negotiating deals, I suspect Trump feels he doesn't need briefings by the 'swamp' dwellers.

Even so, Trump could brush the Times story off, show the world his transition team is doing the best transition that ever transitioned and the story would fade away. But no, Trump is incredibly thin skinned so late last night he tweeted.
2017

So today, the Times published a follow-up, Trump Says Transition's Going 'Smoothly,' Disputing Disarray Reports' (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/17/us/politics/donald-trump-administration-twitter.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0) noting Trump's tweets and restating the required legal documents had still not been signed - after a week and one day.

I'm confident every foreign leader had an ax to grind on those calls - some trivial, some not. I bet some of those leaders left those calls believing they had concurrence from the US on their ax grinding intentions.

For example, I can easily imagine Trump telling Putin he had no objection to Russian resumption of attacks on the 'terrorists' in Syria. Sounds good, it's just what Trump was talking about in the campaign. Right?

If Trump had been briefed by the Dept of State, the swamp people might have told him that Russia and Putin view all of Aleppo as occupied by 'terrorists'. So today, Russia and the Syrians resumed warplane bombing, barrel bombing and cruise missile attacks on Aleppo, hitting hospitals in both the Eastern and Western sections, killing at least 27. The Russians agreed to a humanitarian halt on Oct 18. The Russians have killed about 10,000 Syrians since last September when they started bombing. Did Russia believe it had acquiescence from Trump to resume bombing Aleppo?

Well here's another Times article that makes me think my supposition they think they heard Trump acquiesce could be true, Syrian President Calls Donald Trump a 'Natural Ally' in Flight Against Terrorism (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/17/world/middleeast/assad-donald-trump-syria-natural-ally.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news) Assad is quoted as saying Trump is "a natural ally, together with the Russians, Iranians and many other countries"

Nixon, Agnew and Mitchell knew what they were doing when they fought with the Times and the Post. Trump's first step looks like amateur hour. Picking a fight with the Times over seemingly trivial crap is stupid. He needs to get a thicker skin and lose the arrogance. The swamp is staffed with smart people, he needs to learn that.