Concerns over transfers

[UtahsMrSports]

On a scale of 1-10, how concerned are you over the recent transfers?

[LA Ute]

If 1 means "not worried at all" and 10 means "really worried," I'm a 4.


"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus

[DrumNFeather]

The question I ask myself is...will I be watching next year and saying: "Man, we are a (Isaiah Wright, Brekkot, etc...) away from being the Pac 12 champs." For me, the answer to that question be no! I'm at a 1.

[snafu]

We basically have a brand new team now. This is not a recipe for success at Utah. If I recall correctly, Wright, Mawien, Chapman were all 3-4 star prospects. As it stands right now, we may not be done with transfers. I'm at an 8.

[justaute]

I'm a 1 on the players who transferred.

I'm a 5 on the coaches' ability to identify players.

I'm a 6 on how the potential recruits might view the program.

[LA Ute]

We basically have a brand new team now. This is not a recipe for success at Utah. If I recall correctly, Wright, Mawien, Chapman were all 3-4 star prospects. As it stands right now, we may not be done with transfers. I'm at an 8.

Right now this is just something I'm "harrumphing" about. It may just be part of upgrading the program. If it keeps happening I'll get worried.

[DrumNFeather]

I'm a 1 on the players who transferred.

I'm a 5 on the coaches' ability to identify players.

I'm a 6 on how the potential recruits might view the program.

Yes. This is definitely a concern. It seems like Larry is really focused on finding guys that are right for his system...but if they don't like his system they can hit the high road (which may be a good thing, I don't know).

[U-Ute]

Moderately concerned: 5

Not over the players that are leaving as none are "game changers". I have faith in the ability of LK to find and grow talent. The complete tear down and reboot of the team this year is where my concern comes from. I don't want to see another 9-12 win season, but it seems like the talent we have coming in is good enough that we won't see that, but you never know.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

I posted something similar on UteNation over the weekend and got several people trying to convince everyone that this is the same as it was in the Majerus days. Now, I know that Majerus had his fair share of transfers of kids but my gut is that the misreemberer caller outers are misremembering. Was there a year that Majerus even got close to six transfers? Seems very unlikely.

[FountainOfUte]

I'm a 1 on the players who transferred.

I'm a 5 on the coaches' ability to identify players.

I'm a 6 on how the potential recruits might view the program.

I'd say overall, I'm at a six trending toward a seven. I think this has been nearly a disaster. I mean, if the players who left are a "one," that leaves me with cold comfort regarding this coaching staff's ability to identify and develop players. Add in what I view is a bit of a fumble on LK's part regarding the BYU cancellation (I'm not totally against it, but think it could have been handled WAY better), and I can't help but feel like any successes we've had since Delon and a promising freshman class took us to the Sweet 16, has been fools gold.

Had we made the S16 for the second year in a row (like we should have) instead of getting completely emasculated by a mid major on national television, I'd probably feel like this offseason was more of a minor speedbump than a car-swallowing sink hole. It feels like we're starting over, not merely doing typical offseason retooling.

I'm not panicking, but I'm not impressed and definitely concerned.

[DrumNFeather]

I posted something similar on UteNation over the weekend and got several people trying to convince everyone that this is the same as it was in the Majerus days. Now, I know that Majerus had his fair share of transfers of kids but my gut is that the misreemberer caller outers are misremembering. Was there a year that Majerus even got close to six transfers? Seems very unlikely.

Imagine if there had been social media when Rick was here.

[Applejack]

The only transfer that is worthy of a freak out is Brekkotttt. The others make me feel nothing or better about the program.

Reyes - Not a D1 player. He was just terrible.
Wright - I had high hopes for him, but last year he was just terrible. It actually started at the end of his freshman year.
Miller - Who?
Mawien - We'll never know what might have been, but I trust the coaches on this one. He was a project coming in and something about last year convinced the coaches he wasn't going to develop.

All of the above players can be replaced/improved upon with people we have entering this year. On the other hand:

Brekkott - This one hurts. He showed flashes his freshman year that he would be the go-to guy in a few years. Then as a sophomore he didn't develop. But, he was still one of our best post players and our best passing/shooting big. He'll be hard to replace.

I'm sure there are attitude/effort issues, but I hate to see a highly touted recruit fail.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

The only transfer that is worthy of a freak out is Brekkotttt. The others make me feel nothing or better about the program.

Reyes - Not a D1 player. He was just terrible.
Wright - I had high hopes for him, but last year he was just terrible. It actually started at the end of his freshman year.
Miller - Who?
Mawien - We'll never know what might have been, but I trust the coaches on this one. He was a project coming in and something about last year convinced the coaches he wasn't going to develop.

All of the about players can be replaced/improved upon with people we have entering this year. On the other hand:

Brekkott - This one hurts. He showed flashes his freshman year that he would be the go-to guy in a few years. Then as a sophomore he didn't develop. But, he was still one of our best post players and our best passing/shooting big. He'll be hard to replace.

I'm sure there are attitude/effort issues, but I hate to see a highly touted recruit fail.

You forgot about Montgomery. How could you possibly forget Austin Montgomery?!

[SoCalPat]

Nobody wins when a player transfers out of the program. The coaches either whiffed on a marginal talent, or the player gets uppity. It's also likely that even if a player falls under one or both categories, that he has friends in the locker room that will miss him, which can undercut morale to varying degrees (Not gonna lie -- sometimes it can be improved, too). Under most circumstances, I'm a steady 5. I'm a 6 this year because Brekkot carries value as a player and potential major contributor for this program.

I'm far more worried about our inability to consistently land our top targets in recruiting than I am transfers. I'm probably an 8 in that regard.

[Applejack]

Nobody wins when a player transfers out of the program. The coaches either whiffed on a marginal talent, or the player gets uppity. It's also likely that even if a player falls under one or both categories, that he has friends in the locker room that will miss him, which can undercut morale to varying degrees (Not gonna lie -- sometimes it can be improved, too). Under most circumstances, I'm a steady 5. I'm a 6 this year because Brekkot carries value as a player and potential major contributor for this program.

I'm far more worried about our inability to consistently land our top targets in recruiting than I am transfers. I'm probably an 8 in that regard.

Agreed.

[sancho]

I think being local is tough in today's basketball. Nowadays, a local recruit has a circle of loser AAU friends that goes back 5 years. That's 5 years worth of players, coaches, assistant coaches, friends' parents, and various other assorted leeches who all think they know more about basketball than your head coach. If you don't get playing time, there must be 100 voices saying "so-and-so at such-and-such school would use you better in his system."

I actually know nothing about this - that's just how I picture it in my mind.

[311ute]

http://247sports.com/Season/2016-Basketball/TeamRankings

According to 247, this is the highest rated recruiting class in the Larry K era, and that doesn't include our two D1 transfers (Collette and Barefield).

I get a little confused when I see the same people (I'm not talking about anyone on this board) who were clamoring all season long for the need of a "talent upgrade", now complaining about all the transfers. Can't have both. With the exception of Brekkott, not one of the five players would've seen meaningful minutes next year. I don't have a problem with people blaming the coaches for mis-evaluating or not developing those players, but you can't be upset about not having Miller, Isaiah, Reyes, Makol on the floor next year from a talent perspective. Best for both parties (player and team) for them to move on, and I wish them each well.

The environment in today's CBB is what it is... 500+ transfers per year. Last year we had 0. This year we have 5. If we have around 4-5 next year, then I'll be concerned.

To answer the poll question, I'd say I'm at a 3 in terms of the transfers this year. What's slightly more concerning is the number of players the staff has "missed" on recently. But I still don't think it's overwhelmingly concerning. When you're mainly bringing in 3 star kids like we are, you're probably going to "miss" on half anyway.

[U-Ute]

I hope this doesn't have a negative impact on our Deseret Duel standings.

[LA Ute]

The environment in today's CBB is what it is... 500+ transfers per year. Last year we had 0. This year we have 5. If we have around 4-5 next year, then I'll be concerned.

To answer the poll question, I'd say I'm at a 3 in terms of the transfers this year. What's slightly more concerning is the number of players the staff has "missed" on recently. But I still don't think it's overwhelmingly concerning. When you're mainly bringing in 3 star kids like we are, you're probably going to "miss" on half anyway.

Good post. I agree, even though I am at a 4.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

http://247sports.com/Season/2016-Basketball/TeamRankings

According to 247, this is the highest rated recruiting class in the Larry K era, and that doesn't include our two D1 transfers (Collette and Barefield).

I get a little confused when I see the same people (I'm not talking about anyone on this board) who were clamoring all season long for the need of a "talent upgrade", now complaining about all the transfers. Can't have both. With the exception of Brekkott, not one of the five players would've seen meaningful minutes next year. I don't have a problem with people blaming the coaches for mis-evaluating or not developing those players, but you can't be upset about not having Miller, Isaiah, Reyes, Makol on the floor next year from a talent perspective. Best for both parties (player and team) for them to move on, and I wish them each well.

The environment in today's CBB is what it is... 500+ transfers per year. Last year we had 0. This year we have 5. If we have around 4-5 next year, then I'll be concerned.

To answer the poll question, I'd say I'm at a 3 in terms of the transfers this year. What's slightly more concerning is the number of players the staff has "missed" on recently. But I still don't think it's overwhelmingly concerning. When you're mainly bringing in 3 star kids like we are, you're probably going to "miss" on half anyway.

Just checked because it didn't sound quite right. Eris Winder transferred. But your point still stands. I thought there were a couple at the end of last year, but must have been thinking about Fields and Onwas the year before. Guess things are more stable than I was starting to feel.

[Scorcho]

transfers can be signs of a healthy program, as far as I'm concerned:

Barefield will be an improvement over Wright

Collette > Reyes

And I have the impression that Mawien needed minutes and wasn't going to get them at Utah, if he improves I suspect Utah will recruit him again in a year or two.

With the exception of Brekkot, all of the transfers were win/win for the program and the player and I'm sure cutting ties with Brekkot was a difficult decision but one that was probably better for those involved.

[311ute]

Just checked because it didn't sound quite right. Eris Winder transferred. But your point still stands. I thought there were a couple at the end of last year, but must have been thinking about Fields and Onwas the year before. Guess things are more stable than I was starting to feel.

Guess I should've clarified "scholarship" players. And why I only count 5 this year (would be 6 if you included Montgomery).

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

Ogbe announced this afternoon that he intends on transferring. No one really expected him to play next year, but the fact that he could be playing somewhere else is a major head scratcher. Especially with no one left to replace him. This off-season has been garbage.


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[sancho]

This off-season has been garbage.


It really has. Too bad.

[concerned]

Ogbe announced this afternoon that he intends on transferring. No one really expected him to play next year, but the fact that he could be playing somewhere else is a major head scratcher. Especially with no one left to replace him. This off-season has been garbage.


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Twitter says he is going to UVU, so we will get to see him as part of our crappy home schedule.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

Twitter says he is going to UVU, so we will get to see him as part of our crappy home schedule.

He'll have to sit out a year, right? Does he have a year left to cash out?


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[chrisrenrut]

He'll have to sit out a year, right? Does he have a year left to cash out?


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Someone on Twitter (so consider the source) mentioned he took a heavy course load this summer in order to graduate, which would make him eligible to play wherever he goes right away.

[UtahsMrSports]

There has to be a counter move here. With ten scholarship players until fall semester ends, theres gotta be someone out there who could be a seviceable player.

[UtahsMrSports]

There has to be a counter move here. With ten scholarship players until fall semester ends, theres gotta be someone out there who could be a seviceable player.

Ogbe to UVU.

Im so confused by this, I don't know where to start. If Ogbe is healthy, is he not our starting 3 and getting a lot of minutes?

In my mind, there are two options here:
a) Kuzma is going to transition to the 3 next year, taking the majority of the minutes and Kenneth, wanting to get playing time with his last year, decides to go somewhere where he will have that chance.
b) The staff has a countermove planned and are not sure Ogbe will make it through another year, and thus asked him to move on.

[SeattleUte]

I'm not worried until someone who matters transfers--I'm a 1 right now. These transfers, where the kid is trying to claw himself into a situation where he matters, are normal, especially at a place like Utah where the coaches have to take recruiting risks. I feel like a broken record. Now, I did lose confidence in Boylen because of transfers after essentially the entire returning starting lineup walked out. It's not the same thing.

[SoCalPat]

Ogbe to UVU.

Im so confused by this, I don't know where to start. If Ogbe is healthy, is he not our starting 3 and getting a lot of minutes?

In my mind, there are two options here:
a) Kuzma is going to transition to the 3 next year, taking the majority of the minutes and Kenneth, wanting to get playing time with his last year, decides to go somewhere where he will have that chance.
b) The staff has a countermove planned and are not sure Ogbe will make it through another year, and thus asked him to move on.

The staff has long had plans to medically retire Ogbe. They've been recruiting over him at every opportunity, and the egg on our staff's face over losing Baruti is now doubled, because there was no way they could convince Ogbe to come back. Why on earth would he?

[LA Ute]

Riley said Friday that Ogbe was not asked to leave and that the others who have left were not asked to leave (which surprised me). Of course, SCP is right -- the staff has been recruiting over them right and left. The players could see the writing on the wall.

[sancho]

Riley said Friday that Ogbe was not asked to leave and that the others who have left were not asked to leave (which surprised me). Of course, SCP is right -- the staff has been recruiting over them right and left. The players could see the writing on the wall.

Yeah, but Seattle is right too. Chapman is the only transfer who was in line for real minutes - maybe Wright until barefield could play.

[LA Ute]

Yeah, but Seattle is right too. Chapman is the only transfer who was in line for real minutes - maybe Wright until barefield could play.

I agree. I am not ready to say that this is a sign of trouble in the program at all. More likely it is evidence of upgrading.

[Scorcho]

not sure if this is a concern, but Krysko hasn't coached anywhere for more than 2 years. This is new territory for him.

[LA Ute]

not sure if this is a concern, but Krysko hasn't coached anywhere for more than 2 years. This is new territory for him.

Good point.

[SoCalPat]

Riley said Friday that Ogbe was not asked to leave and that the others who have left were not asked to leave (which surprised me). Of course, SCP is right -- the staff has been recruiting over them right and left. The players could see the writing on the wall.

Bill Riley is an outstanding PBP man, and I'll take his historical viewpoint ahead of many others. But the current news he conveys about the program will always be slanted so that the athletic program holds him in high regard. In other words, Riley ain't gonna rock the boat with strong opinions that run counter to the scrubbed-and-polished viewpoint the administration and/or coaches want out there, lest he wants to run the risk of the school finding another media outlet to broadcast their games -- one that will toe the line and not cross it. I think that's important to remember whenever Riley is speaking on the current state of the program.

We didn't look to Bill Marcroft to shed such insight; no reason we should expect anything different from Riley.

[SeattleUte]

Bill Riley is an outstanding PBP man, and I'll take his historical viewpoint ahead of many others. But the current news he conveys about the program will always be slanted so that the athletic program holds him in high regard. In other words, Riley ain't gonna rock the boat with strong opinions that run counter to the scrubbed-and-polished viewpoint the administration and/or coaches want out there, lest he wants to run the risk of the school finding another media outlet to broadcast their games -- one that will toe the line and not cross it. I think that's important to remember whenever Riley is speaking on the current state of the program.

We didn't look to Bill Marcroft to shed such insight; no reason we should expect anything different from Riley.

I think a lot of news outlets trade positive coverage for access, at least tacitly. I learned with Boylen, and at that time the sports web was still developing, that much of what Rivals etc. posted about recruits and player development was pretty much right from the coach's mouth, especially since Utah recruits are often obscure. Hence these three and four star players that when they actually played turned out to be of limited ability.

[Diehard Ute]

Bill Riley is an outstanding PBP man, and I'll take his historical viewpoint ahead of many others. But the current news he conveys about the program will always be slanted so that the athletic program holds him in high regard. In other words, Riley ain't gonna rock the boat with strong opinions that run counter to the scrubbed-and-polished viewpoint the administration and/or coaches want out there, lest he wants to run the risk of the school finding another media outlet to broadcast their games -- one that will toe the line and not cross it. I think that's important to remember whenever Riley is speaking on the current state of the program.

We didn't look to Bill Marcroft to shed such insight; no reason we should expect anything different from Riley.

All true

But after listening to Krysko yesterday it's obvious he and the staff spent a ton of time with Ogbe figuring this out.

They sent him to multiple doctors and he still couldn't get cleared or perform. He was offered the same deal Jeremy Olsen was given but he thinks he can play, so with the help of the staff he's taken a bunch of credits to graduate and they're helping him transfer. It's obvious the U's medical staff and coaching staff doesn't believe he can play for the U with his injury issues.


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[LA Ute]

Bill Riley is an outstanding PBP man, and I'll take his historical viewpoint ahead of many others. But the current news he conveys about the program will always be slanted so that the athletic program holds him in high regard. In other words, Riley ain't gonna rock the boat with strong opinions that run counter to the scrubbed-and-polished viewpoint the administration and/or coaches want out there, lest he wants to run the risk of the school finding another media outlet to broadcast their games -- one that will toe the line and not cross it. I think that's important to remember whenever Riley is speaking on the current state of the program.

We didn't look to Bill Marcroft to shed such insight; no reason we should expect anything different from Riley.

It's true. We all know what Riley's job is. I pay more attention to what is said by the folks he interviews than what he reports. I don't really see him as a reporter. The interview he did with LK was just what I wanted:

http://espn700sports.com/interviews/larry-krystkowiak-utah-basketball-coach-7-12-16/

Bill basically said, "Fans are worried. Please comment." And we heard what Larry has to say.

[SoCalPat]

All true

But after listening to Krysko yesterday it's obvious he and the staff spent a ton of time with Ogbe figuring this out.

They sent him to multiple doctors and he still couldn't get cleared or perform. He was offered the same deal Jeremy Olsen was given but he thinks he can play, so with the help of the staff he's taken a bunch of credits to graduate and they're helping him transfer. It's obvious the U's medical staff and coaching staff doesn't believe he can play for the U with his injury issues.


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Oh, I agree on Ogbe. His departure has nothing to do with the staff missing on a talent, or Ogbe having big britches syndrome and feeling like he's entitled to a bigger role. My response was in to Riley's statement that the staff didn't ask anyone directly to leave. That may be true, but it's ignoring the bigger point -- that the staff was actively recruiting over players (and several of them) that they recruited and missed on with regard to evaluating.

You can't go on about how we'll be better with the new players, but ignore the fact that we're bringing in new players because you were substandard in the evaluation and offer process.

[SoCalPat]

I think a lot of news outlets trade positive coverage for access, at least tacitly. I learned with Boylen, and at that time the sports web was still developing, that much of what Rivals etc. posted about recruits and player development was pretty much right from the coach's mouth, especially since Utah recruits are often obscure. Hence these three and four star players that when they actually played turned out to be of limited ability.

There is zero doubt this is a problem in college sports media. Just look at how the league's coaches are about reporting injuries. And their admins have fallen in line behind them.

I'm not sure the example you use is a good one. There's speaking frankly, there's putting spin on a particular topic -- and there's committing a violation. Maybe an assistant or someone intimate with the program spoke glowingly about an unsigned recruit, but certainly not the HC. Shoot, even Barrett Peery wouldn't mention Jiggy Watkins by name when I asked him at the national tournament a few years back who he was looking at -- and I wasn't even credentialed media for that tournament!

[DrumNFeather]

All true

But after listening to Krysko yesterday it's obvious he and the staff spent a ton of time with Ogbe figuring this out.

They sent him to multiple doctors and he still couldn't get cleared or perform. He was offered the same deal Jeremy Olsen was given but he thinks he can play, so with the help of the staff he's taken a bunch of credits to graduate and they're helping him transfer. It's obvious the U's medical staff and coaching staff doesn't believe he can play for the U with his injury issues.


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The other thing Larry slipped in there was that he saw a doctor in Germany who gave him a different diagnosis...so there could be some aspect of this where Kenneth feels that the medical staff didn't diagnose or treat him properly.

[Diehard Ute]

The other thing Larry slipped in there was that he saw a doctor in Germany who gave him a different diagnosis...so there could be some aspect of this where Kenneth feels that the medical staff didn't diagnose or treat him properly.

Maybe, but knowing the doctors the U has, and then we send the kid to Philly, that's hard to buy.

(And for a reference the U left no stone unturned for Travis Wilson. They sought the top doctors in the country before coming to a decision. They do the same in all sports. The U is lucky to have the sports medicine staff they do. And the basketball trainer is tremendous as well)


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[DrumNFeather]

Maybe, but knowing the doctors the U has, and then we send the kid to Philly, that's hard to buy.

(And for a reference the U left no stone unturned for Travis Wilson. They sought the top doctors in the country before coming to a decision. They do the same in all sports. The U is lucky to have the sports medicine staff they do. And the basketball trainer is tremendous as well)


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Oh...I think if it were true it would be a completely irrational thought for the reasons you outlined.

[sancho]

It's true. We all know what Riley's job is. I pay more attention to what is said by the folks he interviews than what he reports.

I kinda like homers because you know what their agendas are. I've never liked the "do not root for anyone" rule that sports media places on itself.

[LA Ute]

I kinda like homers because you know what their agendas are. I've never liked the "do not root for anyone" rule that sports media places on itself.

I take everything any news media type says with a grain of salt. It's just information. Depending on the subject, sometimes info from a homer is more reliable than from a critic.

[SeattleUte]

There is zero doubt this is a problem in college sports media. Just look at how the league's coaches are about reporting injuries. And their admins have fallen in line behind them.

I'm not sure the example you use is a good one. There's speaking frankly, there's putting spin on a particular topic -- and there's committing a violation. Maybe an assistant or someone intimate with the program spoke glowingly about an unsigned recruit, but certainly not the HC. Shoot, even Barrett Peery wouldn't mention Jiggy Watkins by name when I asked him at the national tournament a few years back who he was looking at -- and I wasn't even credentialed media for that tournament!

I'm talking about how the players were characterized after they signed. Utah has had a lot of players who were under the radar and weren't rated until after Utah announced them.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

Kenneth Ogbe headed to Provo. Well, I guess technically Orem. Maybe he suits up against us when we play on Dec. 6.

[DrumNFeather]

Kenneth Ogbe headed to Provo. Well, I guess technically Orem. Maybe he suits up against us when we play on Dec. 6.

No wonder we have so many new faces...Larry couldn't take any chances with Kenneth bringing an in-depth scouting report to UVU with him!

[Rocker Ute]

No wonder we have so many new faces...Larry couldn't take any chances with Kenneth bringing an in-depth scouting report to UVU with him!

Let's just hope he doesn't harness the power of schnitzel. Actually best of luck to him at UVU, something very sad at seeing someone's dreams hampered by injury.


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