My concerns with the Taylor hire

[UteMan77]

Hey everybody. New to the site, this looks like a great place for some Ute talk!

While I'm pleasantly surprised that Whit just made an "out of the box" type of OC hire, I have some concerns. Probably, my biggest question is why is Whit so adamant about running a spread offense when all of his philosophies lean towards winning with Defense? Why wouldn't Whit want to bring in an OC that is well versed in the Pro Style offense? Utah already does an amazing job at recruiting big, powerful offensive lineman. The same can be said about their ability to recruit strong, bell-cow Running Backs. It seems to me a natural fit for Whit to commit to that style of offense. Doing so may also help Utah become a program that can attract these bigger Pro Style QB's with NFL aspirations.

Taylor said yesterday in an interview that Whit told him that he wants him to come in and run his offense. That sounds wonderful, but does Whit have the backbone to stick with that philosophy when the bullets start flying? Don't get me wrong, us Ute fans are about to see more points and yardage being put up than we ever thought we'd see with a Whittingham coached team. But what happens when Utah plays a team early on with a good defense (possibly BYU) and loses a game in which the offense suffers 10+ 3 and outs? While we're going to see better offensive production, you're also going to see 3 and outs in which Utah maybe had the ball for 15 seconds of game time before the defense is trotting right back onto the field. Can Whit honestly live with that?

This move tells me that Whit is married to the spread for the rest of his tenure at Utah. I worry that it is a square peg/round hole type of situation. I think Taylor is an amazing up-and-comer of a hire but I have some serious reservations when it comes to Whit being able to stay out of the offense when things sputter.

[Rocker Ute]

There has been some discussion here and in other places on whether Whit is a micromanager or getting involved in the offense more than he should. A recent quote by Norm Chow indicated that while Chow was here Whit stayed out of his business other than routine conversation during a game as proof that he isn't influencing offensive decisions. Keep in mind you can micromanage (even unintentionally) by hanging an axe over someone's head. In other words, Whit may not be getting in and dictating play calling or style of play, but fear of making mistakes results in conservative and predictable play calling.

My guess is that is exactly what is happening and what may happen to Taylor too. That would also explain how each year we start out loose and end the year struggling. So run your offense but don't screw up or there will be hell to pay.

[snafu]

Hey everybody. New to the site, this looks like a great place for some Ute talk!

While I'm pleasantly surprised that Whit just made an "out of the box" type of OC hire, I have some concerns. Probably, my biggest question is why is Whit so adamant about running a spread offense when all of his philosophies lean towards winning with Defense? Why wouldn't Whit want to bring in an OC that is well versed in the Pro Style offense? Utah already does an amazing job at recruiting big, powerful offensive lineman. The same can be said about their ability to recruit strong, bell-cow Running Backs. It seems to me a natural fit for Whit to commit to that style of offense. Doing so may also help Utah become a program that can attract these bigger Pro Style QB's with NFL aspirations.

Whit is a smart guy and he certainly knows his stuff. However, one would think that a pro-style offense would be a nice fit for this team for the reasons you have identified. We ran a pro set with Chow as OC and then he left after one season and Whit went back to the spread. I don't know if Whit knows what kind of offense he wants. I hope the new guy turns out to be a great hire but I am skeptical.

[UteMan77]

Whit is a smart guy and he certainly knows his stuff. However, one would think that a pro-style offense would be a nice fit for this team for the reasons you have identified. We ran a pro set with Chow as OC and then he left after one season and Whit went back to the spread. I don't know if Whit knows what kind of offense he wants. I hope the new guy turns out to be a great hire but I am skeptical.


Its always befuddled me just how smart of football guy Whit is and how much respect he has from the coaching fraternity at large and yet he just can't seem to nail down the whole Offense thing. I think a huge "what if" for the rest of my life is Chow being hired by Hawaii. Had that not happened, I think Chow really flourishes not only with the offense at Utah, but with recruiting. His name carried considerable weight with recruits. I honestly believe that had Chow stayed, Utah's been to one or two Rose Bowls by now.

[sancho]

Its always befuddled me just how smart of football guy Whit is and how much respect he has from the coaching fraternity at large and yet he just can't seem to nail down the whole Offense thing. I think a huge "what if" for the rest of my life is Chow being hired by Hawaii. Had that not happened, I think Chow really flourishes not only with the offense at Utah, but with recruiting. His name carried considerable weight with recruits. I honestly believe that had Chow stayed, Utah's been to one or two Rose Bowls by now.

It's a good "what if" because there's also a chance that Chow was just done at that point and would have been no more successful at Utah than he was at Hawaii.

[sancho]

Whit is a smart guy and he certainly knows his stuff. However, one would think that a pro-style offense would be a nice fit for this team for the reasons you have identified. We ran a pro set with Chow as OC and then he left after one season and Whit went back to the spread. I don't know if Whit knows what kind of offense he wants. I hope the new guy turns out to be a great hire but I am skeptical.

Who is running a pro-style offense nowadays? Only Stanford, right? Wisconsin? Even Alabama and USC gave up on it. I guess we could do it, but we wouldn't do it as well as Stanford does.

[snafu]

Who is running a pro-style offense nowadays? Only Stanford, right? Wisconsin? Even Alabama and USC gave up on it. I guess we could do it, but we wouldn't do it as well as Stanford does.

I guess we could keep doing what we've been doing since we've been so good at it.

[sancho]

I guess we could keep doing what we've been doing since we've been so good at it.

Well, I guess that's a good point.

Ultimately, our offensive philosophy will matter much less than our offensive personnel.

[WhoAmISir]

Here my $.02 worth as that is about what it's worth.

1) Pre-Chow what did we recruit to? The Spread. I'll give you that our QB's were a mixed bag but that goes to the carousel at OC and lack of a true QB coach.
2) What does most if not all high schools run these days - The Spread (read option run heavy or pass heavy)
3) Because of the carousel at OC and the years of Spread, 1 year of Pro, and a couple of years of "Multiples" (meaning jack of all and master of none) our recruiting has been trying to at times, fit square pegs in round holes.
4) Now with another OC but one that has developed and implemented his "spread" and coming out and stating that he will evaluate the skills sets of the offense and tweak his system to match the personnel we have quite honestly is the first time I have heard our spread will match our strengths and minimize out weaknesses.
5) The new blood OC I believe will not play favorites. The personnel that want it the most will get the nod - he's proven that by tapping the walk-on QB at EWU making him not only starter of the incumbent but also a record setting NCAA QB says he will run things his way.
6) I believe Taylor will have a system that sets up plays from previous ran plays which has not been there over the last couple of year. It's called seeing the big picture and planning strategically and tactically through out whole game. Look at his EWU film over several games and you'll see what I mean.
7) Kyle and is "sword of Damocles" unintentionally holding back the offense I just don't buy in. If you're talking about "a just don't screw it up" conversation well any bets that Saban says the same thing to Kiffin or will say it the new Alabama burger eater? (For you edification about what I'm talking about https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Sarkisian+buger+eater+video&view=detail&mid=545BA4DEE30A2A4ED079545BA4DEE30A2A4ED079&FORM=VIRE)

[LA Ute]

Here my $.02 worth as that is about what it's worth.

1) Pre-Chow what did we recruit to? The Spread. I'll give you that our QB's were a mixed bag but that goes to the carousel at OC and lack of a true QB coach.
2) What does most if not all high schools run these days - The Spread (read option run heavy or pass heavy)
3) Because of the carousel at OC and the years of Spread, 1 year of Pro, and a couple of years of "Multiples" (meaning jack of all and master of none) our recruiting has been trying to at times, fit square pegs in round holes.
4) Now with another OC but one that has developed and implemented his "spread" and coming out and stating that he will evaluate the skills sets of the offense and tweak his system to match the personnel we have quite honestly is the first time I have heard our spread will match our strengths and minimize out weaknesses.
5) The new blood OC I believe will not play favorites. The personnel that want it the most will get the nod - he's proven that by tapping the walk-on QB at EWU making him not only starter of the incumbent but also a record setting NCAA QB says he will run things his way.
6) I believe Taylor will have a system that sets up plays from previous ran plays which has not been there over the last couple of year. It's called seeing the big picture and planning strategically and tactically through out whole game. Look at his EWU film over several games and you'll see what I mean.
7) Kyle and is "sword of Damocles" unintentionally holding back the offense I just don't buy in. If you're talking about "a just don't screw it up" conversation well any bets that Saban says the same thing to Kiffin or will say it the new Alabama burger eater? (For you edification about what I'm talking about https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Sarkisian+buger+eater+video&view=detail&mid=545BA4DEE30A2A4ED079545BA4DEE30A2A4ED079&FORM=VIRE)

Good post. As for KW's Sword of Damocles, I don't know if that is true or not. I've given up trying to decide. What is undeniable is that he is the head coach, the offensive problems have happened on his watch, and he's the key to fixing them. I am 100% confident that he his capable of doing that. I'm hoping the Taylor hire is the beginning of a new era, not just in personnel but in Kyle's thinking.

[U-Ute]

I listened to the Taylor interview on 1280. He reminds me of Krystkowiak in the way he talks. There's a certain blend of confidence, smarts and ability communicate they have in common. He seems to have a swagger and confidence that I hope he can bring to the offensive side of the ball.

[SoCalPat]

I listened to the Taylor interview on 1280. He reminds me of Krystkowiak in the way he talks. There's a certain blend of confidence, smarts and ability communicate they have in common. He seems to have a swagger and confidence that I hope he can bring to the offensive side of the ball.

Lost in all the talk about running a pro set is you need a fullback. Two things make that difficult to do at Utah: First, fullback is not a position you recruit, and that kind of player is better suited for D-line or linebacker, given Kyle's mindset. Also, Erickson was a one-back offense guy. Zero point having him on staff if you're gonna run anything but that.

We like to bring up Chow's first year, but that was done out of necessity after Wynn got hurt. Shawn Asiata was the MVP of that team, because he was a Swiss Army knife fullback who could line up wide and mind-fuck every DC in America. We formationed teams to death that year, and our use of a fullback was instrumental.

Find me the fullback on Utah's roster and I can entertain ideas of running a pro set. None of the guys we have coming back for that mold.

[sancho]

Find me the fullback on Utah's roster and I can entertain ideas of running a pro set. None of the guys we have coming back for that mold.

Good point. A FB seems like a luxury when the LB corps is so shallow. If we were swimming in LBs, it'd be fun to mess around with a FB.

[snafu]

Find me the fullback on Utah's roster and I can entertain ideas of running a pro set. None of the guys we have coming back for that mold.

A quick glance at the roster shows nine guys listed on the roster as running back last year and seven listed as tight end. We can't find one guy to be a fullback out of that bunch?

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

A quick glance at the roster shows nine guys listed on the roster as running back last year and seven listed as tight end. We can't find one guy to be a fullback out of that bunch?

Yeah. Probably Troy McCormick.


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[U-Ute]

Yeah. Probably Troy McCormick.


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How many people named Troy do you need on your team before USC gives up the title of "Men Of Troy"?

Maybe we should be nicknamed "Men Named Troy"?

[noneyadb]

Yeah. Probably Troy McCormick.


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Troy is too small to handle being a P5 RB. NFL full backs are 6' 230lbs. Davir Hamilton was a WR/LB in high school, probably the best suited for a full back/short yardage pro style set play, but he is likely going to be the starting LB next season. Tupai could also work in a short yardage play, he needs to move to LB though, too short for NFL as a DE at 6'1"-6'2".

[SoCalPat]

Yeah. Probably Troy McCormick.


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Is this some kind of joke I'm missing? The Troy McCormick listed at Utah is 5-9, 180.

[SoCalPat]

A quick glance at the roster shows nine guys listed on the roster as running back last year and seven listed as tight end. We can't find one guy to be a fullback out of that bunch?

Shawn Asiata was 6-0, 250. None of our current RB/TEs come close to matching that body type.

The closest we have to that is at D-line and LB, and we're talking about proven contributors on that side of the ball. (Pita T. was 6-1, 245).

Again, remember what I said about Erickson. He's a one-back guy. Why would we have anyone closely resembling a FB currently on offense?

[Scorcho]

Its always befuddled me just how smart of football guy Whit is and how much respect he has from the coaching fraternity at large and yet he just can't seem to nail down the whole Offense thing. I think a huge "what if" for the rest of my life is Chow being hired by Hawaii. Had that not happened, I think Chow really flourishes not only with the offense at Utah, but with recruiting. His name carried considerable weight with recruits. I honestly believe that had Chow stayed, Utah's been to one or two Rose Bowls by now.

I agree. If Chow stays at Utah, Utes recruit higher profile pocket QB's and generate more wins. I don't know about a Rose Bowl, but I do think a team of Chow and Whitt would have been damn good.

I just listened to the 4th and long podcast with Tom Hackett and Andy Phillips. Great insight into the program. They explained their reasoning for the November collapses and while they both loved AROD, they understood why the OC needed to be changed.

They also divuldge exactly why Hatfield and Butler-Byrd didn't play in the bowl game. Disappointing.

[LuckyUte]

They also divuldge exactly why Hatfield and Butler-Byrd didn't play in the bowl game. Disappointing.

Why?

[Diehard Ute]

I agree. If Chow stays at Utah, Utes recruit higher profile pocket QB's and generate more wins. I don't know about a Rose Bowl, but I do think a team of Chow and Whitt would have been damn good.

I just listened to the 4th and long podcast with Tom Hackett and Andy Phillips. Great insight into the program. They explained their reasoning for the November collapses and while they both loved AROD, they understood why the OC needed to be changed.

They also divuldge exactly why Hatfield and Butler-Byrd didn't play in the bowl game. Disappointing.

I think far too many fans have a rosy vision of Chow. I've heard nothing to suggest anything with Chow was rosy.

While I understand why Kyle had to hire him I'm of the opinion Utah would have been better off if he'd never come.




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[Scorcho]

Why?


Hatfield didnt want want to practice in the cold in Utah (individual DB drills were outside for 25 mins because there wasn't room indoors) five-five minute rotations.

And Butler-Byrd didn't want to practice because of a sore knee, Whitt said either you practice or I will see you on pro day, Corey said see you on pro day. Coaching staff considered him healthy enough to practice after having nearly a month off.

Their podcast is very good.

[Scorcho]

I think far too many fans have a rosy vision of Chow. I've heard nothing to suggest anything with Chow was rosy.

While I understand why Kyle had to hire him I'm of the opinion Utah would have been better off if he'd never come.


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I loved his play calling. I loved watching him run something to set something up later. I've rarely seen that pin our OC's before or since. In my opinion he's an OC artist.

Your closer set to the program than I am, I won't pretend to know how he was to deal with.

[LuckyUte]

Hatfield didnt want want to practice in the cold in Utah (individual DB drills were outside for 25 mins because there wasn't room indoors) five-five minute rotations.

And Butler-Byrd didn't want to practice because of a sore knee, Whitt said either you practice or I will see you on pro day, Corey said see you on pro day. Coaching staff considered him healthy enough to practice after having nearly a month off.

Their podcast is very good.

Thank you for the information.

[sancho]

While I understand why Kyle had to hire him I'm of the opinion Utah would have been better off if he'd never come.


I don't see how anyone could disagree with this. The Chow hire was a no-brainer, but it really hurt the offense long term. We are still feeling the ripple effect of that hire.

[Rocker Ute]

I had heard both those things about Domo and CBB and considering the second chances they got on the team was really disappointing. Despite what may be publicly said about their innocence they are very very fortunate to be where they are instead of some other less career-friendly options.

Smart guys take that second chance and do the best they can and pay the proper respect to the people who got them that opportunity. These guys did none of that with these actions.


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[jrj84105]

I think far too many fans have a rosy vision of Chow. I've heard nothing to suggest anything with Chow was rosy.

While I understand why Kyle had to hire him I'm of the opinion Utah would have been better off if he'd never come.

This. In addition to Chow's personality issues, I think in part to Lavell Edward's long period of dominance, a lot of Ute fans have unusually high esteem for the WCO. Aside from LE, I think a lot of people who came up during the golden age of the West Coast offense automatically equate the look of a precision passing offense with offensive competence and execution. The thing with the old west coast offense is that it has to be super precise just to score as many points as current spread systems do when run sloppily. We looked poised and under control with Chow, but we didn't score much.

[concerned]

Hatfield didnt want want to practice in the cold in Utah (individual DB drills were outside for 25 mins because there wasn't room indoors) five-five minute rotations.

And Butler-Byrd didn't want to practice because of a sore knee, Whitt said either you practice or I will see you on pro day, Corey said see you on pro day. Coaching staff considered him healthy enough to practice after having nearly a month off.

Their podcast is very good.

I heard that kw and everybody else was sick to death of CBB's antics and wanted him gone from the team. Addition by subtraction.

[snafu]

I don't see how anyone could disagree with this. The Chow hire was a no-brainer, but it really hurt the offense long term. We are still feeling the ripple effect of that hire.

What ripple effect? I have heard plenty of criticism of the Brian Johnson hire but not the Chow hire. Chow took a walk-on QB and turned him into a serviceable player. Isn't QB development something we have been missing for years now?

[UTEopia]

I think far too many fans have a rosy vision of Chow. I've heard nothing to suggest anything with Chow was rosy.

While I understand why Kyle had to hire him I'm of the opinion Utah would have been better off if he'd never come.

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Chow and KW were barely speaking to one another the last half of the season.

[concerned]

Btw, what has Taylor said about our running attack? Has he said how it will change ( other than the run - pass ratio). In other words will we still.be a school where a workhorse back would want to come, like booker, Joe W., and enoh Benjamin? Or will this offense give a workhorse recruit pause?

[sancho]

Addition by subtraction.

Yeah, probably. But, man, CBB is a great player to have in the slot. We tried to use Fulks/McCormick to replace him, but it just wasn't the same.

[sancho]

Or will this offense give a workhorse recruit pause?

Taylor appears to be a smart guy. If he is, he'll realize we have something good going and will not sacrifice it. He would be wise to feed Shyne/Moss next season. Bird in the hand, you know.

[sancho]

What ripple effect?

The ripple effect of going through so many coordinators. The chow hire started it all.

[Rocker Ute]

The ripple effect of going through so many coordinators. The chow hire started it all.

The good news in all of this is I think that Taylor is someone you can recruit some elite if not up-and-coming QBs and WRs around, which has been been a big problem for us, regardless of whether our offense was good or not. I think some new doors have opened with this hire. What kid isn't going to look at Browning and what he did at EWU and be a little bit interested.

More fascinating to me is if I were to level a main criticism of Troy Williams was his slow release and difficulty in going through his progressions. Taylor's offense seems to address those problems. You could have said the same about Travis Wilson too.

I'd be interested in the history of Taylor's expertise on this. He talked about an open toe stance and easier reads and progressions. My guess is that was birthed in teaching high school kids how to be efficient and it has apparently translated well to college ball. My guess is we are going to have an explosive first few games on offense. The question for me is will the Pac12 be able to adjust and with superior athletes shut it down.

[sancho]

The good news in all of this is I think that Taylor is someone you can recruit some elite if not up-and-coming QBs and WRs around, which has been been a big problem for us, regardless of whether our offense was good or not. I think some new doors have opened with this hire. What kid isn't going to look at Browning and what he did at EWU and be a little bit interested.


The first season for a new OC obviously matters a lot for recruiting. If good things happen in 2017, the QB/WR recruiting will jump.

It's tough, though. The new OC has to change the system using players he didn't recruit who are already used to the old system.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

Is this some kind of joke I'm missing? The Troy McCormick listed at Utah is 5-9, 180.

It absolutely was a joke. He was the one to highlight my point, and the point you make below that we don't have any RBs even close to what Asiata was. A bowling ball of violence.


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[jrj84105]

It's tough, though. The new OC has to change the system using players he didn't recruit who are already used to the old system.
The players we have are better suited for Taylor's system than what a ARod was trying to implement. ARod also dipped into so many different systems and philosophies that there are plenty of elements in our 2016 offense that transition right into Taylor's. We won't really have a new offense, we'll have a focused offense that sticks to the spread principles we're already been recruiting for and occasionally using on the field.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

I thought this was a funny tweet and applicable to some of the discussion in this thread.

817071174110715906


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[SoCalPat]

The ripple effect of going through so many coordinators. The chow hire started it all.

The idea that Chow was a horrible hire whose effects are still being felt today is hilarious. Those of this mindset, ask yourself the following:

1. How many wins do we get in 2011 with either Chow's predecessor or successor running the offense? We had 2 when Wynn went down, I'll say we get two more maximum for a total of four wins.

2. Do you really think Kyle is still around after we go 4-8, 5-7, 5-7 to begin our time in the Pac-12?

I don't think anyone can guarantee anything to the contrary to those scenarios. Chow was the damn bridge for the program between the MWC and Pac-12 respectability. And am I the only one whose noticed this alleged "discord" within the program only comes when competent OCs are in the program? Saying Kyle wants a puppet for an OC is more than fair game until proven otherwise.

[SoCalPat]

I thought this was a funny tweet and applicable to some of the discussion in this thread.

817071174110715906


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What the hell was Ohio State and Florida under Urban? Auburn with Cam Newton? Texas with Vince Young? Mora is a moron. I can't believe so many on here have fallen for his schtick in the past.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Alabama runs essentially a spread variant.

[sancho]

The idea that Chow was a horrible hire whose effects are still being felt today is hilarious.

He was a can't pass, brilliant hire who didn't work out. Had he stuck around, he may have been the bridge you are talking about. Instead the bridge was made up of 4 different OC's. I don't blame him for leaving (though I think we all knew Hawaii would be a disaster), but the fact that he left threw us into the carousel. So, yes, we are still feeling the effects. The one-year hiatus from the spread has left us confused for 5 years about our offensive system and identity.

I don't agree that Chow saved Kyle's job. It was always our defense (even in Chow's season) and recruiting that won us enough games to keep Kyle. Do you really believe we go 4-8 that season without Chow? The 8 teams we beat were not good (Montana St, BYU, Pitt, UCLA, Oregon St, Arizona, Wazzu, and GT). None of them finished ranked. Most of the games weren't close; we held 5 of those teams to 14 points or less. Georgia Tech is the only one of those teams that still has the same head coach.

All that said, I like Chow. I loved Asiata just like we all did. I loved Hayes and the Wolfman in the bowl game against GT. The draw to Wolfman was a brilliant play call. Hiring Chow was absolutely the right move at the time. It just didn't work out due to circumstance.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

What the hell was Ohio State and Florida under Urban? Auburn with Cam Newton? Texas with Vince Young? Mora is a moron. I can't believe so many on here have fallen for his schtick in the past.

You forgot Oregon. Oh wait...


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[UteMan77]

Norm Chow won football games (and a bowl game) with a QB who should have never taken a snap of D1 football. Period. Sure, maybe Chow was a grump, but IMO he was a QB whispering genius and I have to choose to agree to disagree with those who actually think Utah was worse off for the hire. He had to take the Hawaii job. Whit botched the opportunity to stay with the same offense after Chow left and he's continued to mismanage that side of the ball ever since.

[Utah]

Btw, what has Taylor said about our running attack? Has he said how it will change ( other than the run - pass ratio). In other words will we still.be a school where a workhorse back would want to come, like booker, Joe W., and enoh Benjamin? Or will this offense give a workhorse recruit pause?

Taylor hasn't talked about the RB's much, but he did say he likes to go fast and would prefer to not substitute so he can keep the tempo high.