Political/Cultural Chit-Chat

[LA Ute]

We need this thread so we are not always in the Trump thread!

Here we have the California Legislature, as always, focusing on the really important issues here in the Golden State:

Proposal to restrict plastic straws keeps California in national spotlight on environment


California is poised to become the first state to restrict the distribution of plastic straws at restaurants under a bill approved Thursday by lawmakers, capturing the attention of environmentalists nationwide who hope the idea, like many with origins in the Golden State, will spread across the nation.The legislation, which would prohibit full-service, dine-in restaurants from offering plastic straws (http://www.latimes.com/politics/essential/la-pol-ca-essential-politics-may-2018-proposal-that-would-place-restrictions-1534800183-htmlstory.html) to customers unless they are requested, passed on a 45-20 vote by the Assembly and now goes to Gov. Jerry Brown for his signature....

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-ca-plastic-straw-limits-california-20180823-story.html#

[U-Ute]

Sadly, it would have minimal impact.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/06/the-journey-of-plastic-around-the-globe/?beta=true&utm_source=reddit.com

[concerned]

Sadly, it would have minimal impact.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/06/the-journey-of-plastic-around-the-globe/?beta=true&utm_source=reddit.com


You have to start somewhere


The Wall Street Journal‏Verified account @WSJ (https://twitter.com/WSJ) 10h10 hours ago (https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1032587022618255360)

Kroger plans to eliminate plastic shopping bags—of which it distributes six billion a year—from all stores by 2025

[LA Ute]

Sadly, it would have minimal impact.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/06/the-journey-of-plastic-around-the-globe/?beta=true&utm_source=reddit.com

We don't care about that out here on the left coast. Virtue-signalling is more important than results! Our legislature here is the upside-down version of Utah's.

(Anyone catch the Stranger Things reference?)

[LA Ute]

You have to start somewhere


The Wall Street Journal‏Verified account @WSJ (https://twitter.com/WSJ) 10h10 hours ago (https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1032587022618255360)

Kroger plans to eliminate plastic shopping bags—of which it distributes six billion a year—from all stores by 2025


Their drawn-out deadline exemplifies the foot-dragging that is typical of the running dog lackeys of Wall Street.

[USS Utah]

Brilliant!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJK2JveCAbI

[Irving Washington]

Brilliant!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJK2JveCAbI
I didn't take the time to listen to most of what Sasse said, but in regards to Congress doing its job as laid out in the Constituition, what was his position on giving the Garland nomination a hearing and vote?

[USS Utah]

I didn't take the time to listen to most of what Sasse said, but in regards to Congress doing its job as laid out in the Constituition, what was his position on giving the Garland nomination a hearing and vote?

What did you find out when you Googled it?

[Irving Washington]

What did you find out when you Googled it?

Didn't, but since you mentioned it, here's something https://thewayofimprovement.com/2018/09/05/hey-ben-sasse-what-about-merrick-garland/

[USS Utah]

Didn't, but since you mentioned it, here's something https://thewayofimprovement.com/2018/09/05/hey-ben-sasse-what-about-merrick-garland/

Once again, never fall in love with a politician.

[Irving Washington]

Once again, never fall in love with a politician.
Hero's die hard.

[LA Ute]

The Senate had no constitutional duty to act on the Garland nomination. It wasn’t pretty, but what they did was a matter of pure power politics. No one can seriously doubt that the Democrats, if the situation were reversed, would have done the same thing.

[Irving Washington]

The Senate had no constitutional duty to act on the Garland nomination. It wasn’t pretty, but what they did was a matter of pure power politics. No one can seriously doubt that the Democrats, if the situation were reversed, would have done the same thing.

No one can seriously doubt? I must be irreparably biased, because before last year I would never consider the possibility. Dems would do a Bork, which started the whole nasty partisan crap, and Orrin developed into an art form.

[Irving Washington]

The Senate had no constitutional duty to act on the Garland nomination. It wasn’t pretty, but what they did was a matter of pure power politics. No one can seriously doubt that the Democrats, if the situation were reversed, would have done the same thing.

So in Article II, Section 2, the term "shall" applies to the President, but not the Senate? "By and with" does not require the Senate to act but precludes the President from appointing with no action? What would the current Originalists on the Court do with that interpretation? How would the Marbury v Madison Court rule on that interpretation?

[LA Ute]

So in Article II, Section 2, the term "shall" applies to the President, but not the Senate? "By and with" does not require the Senate to act but precludes the President from appointing with no action? What would the current Originalists on the Court do with that interpretation? How would the Marbury v Madison Court rule on that interpretation?

If the tables had been turned I would have been angry too. Depends on which political side you’re on, because it was an exercise of political power. Even Glenn Kessler, the WaPo fact checker, sees history and precedent slightly favoring the GOP on this one:

Does the Senate have a constitutional responsibility to consider a Supreme Court nomination?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/03/16/does-the-senate-have-a-constitutional-responsibility-to-consider-a-supreme-court-nomination/?utm_term=.9efb187685f3

As I’ve said before, I think the SCOTUS has become far too important.

[Irving Washington]

If the tables had been turned I would have been angry too. Depends on which political side you’re on, because it was an exercise of political power. Even Glenn Kessler, the WaPo fact checker, sees history and precedent slightly favoring the GOP on this one:

Does the Senate have a constitutional responsibility to consider a Supreme Court nomination?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/03/16/does-the-senate-have-a-constitutional-responsibility-to-consider-a-supreme-court-nomination/?utm_term=.9efb187685f3

As I’ve said before, I think the SCOTUS has become far too important.
I wonder if legal scholars have weighed in on the Senate's duties. The fact that the Senate has done it in the past is not a compelling legal argument. It's about as compelling as if Obama appointed him and said if the Senate has no obligation to act then it's consent isnt required.
If the SCOTUS said there was a duty to act, then we wouldn't have filibusters on any nominees for any judicial positions or candidates waiting for years to be considered. A better world, if you ask me. But now we have a recent precedent for inaction far into the future.
By the way, the nomination of a moderate Garland was a pretty bipartisan act (even if calculated as the only way to get approval. Isn't that what bipartisanship is all about?)

[LA Ute]

I wonder if legal scholars have weighed in on the Senate's duties. The fact that the Senate has done it in the past is not a compelling legal argument. It's about as compelling as if Obama appointed him and said if the Senate has no obligation to act then it's consent isnt required.
If the SCOTUS said there was a duty to act, then we wouldn't have filibusters on any nominees for any judicial positions or candidates waiting for years to be considered. A better world, if you ask me. But now we have a recent precedent for inaction far into the future.
By the way, the nomination of a moderate Garland was a pretty bipartisan act (even if calculated as the only way to get approval. Isn't that what bipartisanship is all about?)

One law prof’s take:

Why the Senate Doesn't Have to Act on Merrick Garland's Nomination

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/05/senate-obama-merrick-garland-supreme-court-nominee/482733/

Another:

Again on the erroneous argument that the Senate has a ‘constitutional duty’ to consider a Supreme Court nominee

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/03/26/again-on-the-erroneous-argument-that-the-senate-has-a-constitutional-duty-to-consider-a-supreme-court-nominee/?outputType=comment&utm_term=.0c8a8ca4399c

[LA Ute]

I’m posting this is a public service for my liberal and conservative friends.

Liberals Don't Know Much About Conservative History
And both sides suffer for it.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/09/09/liberals-dont-know-much-about-conservative-history-219742

[Solon]

I’m posting this is a public service for my liberal and conservative friends.

Liberals Don't Know Much About Conservative History
And both sides suffer for it.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/09/09/liberals-dont-know-much-about-conservative-history-219742


I'm a moderate - middle-of-the-road non-activist (but very interested) voter who was generally considered conservative when I lived in Pennsylvania, and liberal when I lived in Utah.

Lately, I am impressed by the Conservative emphasis on institutions - churches, military, families, whatever - as important for community-building. In a weird way, the liberal point-of-view has come to idealize individualism while the conservative one seems to focus on the importance of community. (this is not an original idea by me - I've been reading it all summer from the usual outlets)

I feel like I'm taking crazy-pills when the Left is telling me that as an educated, cis-gender, white male I'll never truly understand a different point-of-view, and the Right is inviting me to help build a village to raise our children. Down is now Up, I guess.

Make your case, Conservatives. You can probably talk me into making some questionable decisions :)

[LA Ute]

Here’s another one for you, Solon:

An Age Divided by Sex
The Kavanaugh nightmare shows how the competing moralisms of conservatism and feminism are tearing us apart.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/29/opinion/sunday/kavanaugh-feminism-conservatism.html

[LA Ute]

Here's something new and interesting, via the Brookings Institution:

A global tipping point: Half the world is now middle class or wealthier

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2018/09/27/a-global-tipping-point-half-the-world-is-now-middle-class-or-wealthier/

[LA Ute]

Stop Apologizing for Our History (https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/10/stop-apologizing-for-history-the-west-churchill-critics/)


Excerpt:


But, of course, we cannot come together as one nation so long as we engage in the foolish exercise of savaging our civilizational history. Good-faith conversations about American history recognize the multifaceted moral nature of human existence: the fact that George Washington was a slaveholder does not render his status as father of the country moot; the fact that Abraham Lincoln spent most of his career advocating for colonization of black Americans in Africa rather than their full integration into American life does not obliterate Lincoln’s role as the Great Emancipator. Human beings are products of their time — and they are capable of holding viewpoints that resonate down through the ages and the prejudices of their own age. Undoubtedly, a century from now, few will look kindly at even the most broadminded Americans’ views on a variety of issues.

But the process of civilizational development requires us to separate the wheat from the chaff — and to celebrate the wheat....

The war on the history of the West isn’t merely a difference of opinion, to be glossed over with a few words about bipartisanship. America is divided right now between two groups: those who believe that America and the West are fundamentally good and worth fighting for, despite their myriad historic shortcomings; and those who believe that America and the West are fundamentally evil and racist, steeped in structural power imbalances. A house divided against itself cannot stand; those who care for their homes cannot declare unity with arsonists.

[Ma'ake]

Stop Apologizing for Our History (https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/10/stop-apologizing-for-history-the-west-churchill-critics/)


Excerpt:

I read this, and thought "who could possibly cook up this irrationally narrow prism and label those who remind us of the bad parts of the past as "arsonists"?".

Oh yeah, Ben Shapiro.

But this article is thought provoking: https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/10/tribal-warfare-isnt-all-bad/

Essentially, all the rancor surrounding Kavanaugh indicates our elected leaders are paying attention to a very highly engaged populous. Democracy at work. Interesting take.

[LA Ute]

I read this, and thought "who could possibly cook up this irrationally narrow prism and label those who remind us of the bad parts of the past as "arsonists"?".

Oh yeah, Ben Shapiro.

But this article is thought provoking: https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/10/tribal-warfare-isnt-all-bad/

Essentially, all the rancor surrounding Kavanaugh indicates our elected leaders are paying attention to a very highly engaged populous. Democracy at work. Interesting take.

I think you’re throwing out the baby with a tiny bit of bath water. Shapiro’s hard to take sometimes but the “arsonist” bit was just a figure of speech. The parts I quoted were his good points. For example:


Good-faith conversations about American history recognize the multifaceted moral nature of human existence: the fact that George Washington was a slaveholder does not render his status as father of the country moot; the fact that Abraham Lincoln spent most of his career advocating for colonization of black Americans in Africa rather than their full integration into American life does not obliterate Lincoln’s role as the Great Emancipator. Human beings are products of their time — and they are capable of holding viewpoints that resonate down through the ages and the prejudices of their own age. Undoubtedly, a century from now, few will look kindly at even the most broadminded Americans’ views on a variety of issues.

But the process of civilizational development requires us to separate the wheat from the chaff — and to celebrate the wheat.

What’s to disagree with there?

The J.J. McCullough piece you link closed with this:


If you don’t like how the Kavanaugh process went down, in short, the prescription is obvious: America needs less political journalism, fewer citizen activists, an unelected Senate, ideologically arbitrary political parties, and a more politically oblivious public.

I liked the piece, which I found thought-provoking, but I think the above is a silly bit of reductive thinking. Awful, IMO. I’m not a teacher but if he were a student in my composition class I’d give him an F and make him re-write his piece.

[Ma'ake]

I think you’re throwing out the baby with a tiny bit of bath water. Shapiro’s hard to take sometimes but the “arsonist” bit was just a figure of speech. The parts I quoted were his good points.

In my interactions with people from more diverse backgrounds (I wouldn't have had if I wasn't connected with my wife) I've had conversations with folks who focus on Founders owning slaves, States Rights people looking the other way as Jim Crow happened, and now BLM, and conclude the entire system has been rotten from Day 1.

Drawing in the bigger context, acknowledging history and reality, I point out the progress made. Women aren't property anymore, they can vote. Blacks have made enormous strides in terms of rights and opportunities, with tons of role models to look to.

Are where we need to be? Of course not. Is the Klan back? Well, some are, it was clearly on TV. But every day, in every interaction with people, you can make a difference, for yourself and your kids.

In my interactions with other cultures - African American, Native American, Latino, Poly - a stereotype of white people sometimes emerges. "Watch your wallet!" "Smooth talkers, you'll end up with less, they end up with more". In Hawai'i the conquering of the islands was from "missionaries, then merchants, and finally the Marines". Etc.

Two of my sons worked a very short time in door to door security sales in Texas a couple of summers ago. My sons were coveted because they could open doors in the hood with their appearances. But the whole thing was extremely scammy, and the A-holes running this thing were bragging about fleecing the stupid people in the hood (I've sanitized the language), even around my sons, because "you two aren't really black".

After a week, I flew my kids home, proud of them for confronting the predators & getting out of that sleazy operation. "Lesson learned: There are people and parts of America to avoid. Do what YOU can to dispel lingering racism, and don't let it defeat you".

Shapiro's approach is confrontation & contrast, pumping up a specific view within his tribe. I've had better results acknowledging the past & current issues, but emphasizing progress and pointing to a brighter, achievable future.


Here's the nut I'm having a harder time cracking - our economic system increasingly rewards not effort, but results. In the Information Age, this is the sequel to "Revenge of the Nerds", but the results are dramatically different economic outcomes (salaries & wealth), based on noodle power.

In WWII, in the Space Race, we as a people could embrace and support our "best and brightest", as it meant success as a nation from a specific threat from other nations. Today if I bring in a "free agent", an IT version of Kevin Durrant, the salary discrepancy is tough for those who've been loyal, been working their butts off, really good people.

The Space Race and WWII were won, they were tangible targets to achieve and celebrate. The drive for organizations to excel today - or at least not be left behind - means salary competition for the "best and brightest", and there's no end in sight. It's an ongoing, corrosive mix.

The real irony is a large segment of Trump's base are at heart good people, "steady Eddies", who are looking for him to create equality of outcome... for them. Hence the rhetoric against Amazon, "trade wars are good and easy to win", etc. The enemy often isn't another country - it's our fellow Americans.

[U-Ute]

I don't know if this is true or not, but it doesn't take much imagination to believe that it is true.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-john-kelly-fire-white-house-olivia-nuzzi-pence-pompeo-oval-office-a8578486.html?utm_source=reddit.com



Donald Trump has reportedly tried to fire John Kelly, but failed because the White House chief of staff “just ignores him”.

The president wants rid of the former Marine Corps general but “doesn’t know who to call to fire him” as Mr Kelly himself usually carries out his sackings, according to an administration staffer.



“I think the president just doesn’t know who to call to fire him,” the administration official told New York. “Normally if the president wanted to fire somebody, he would call Kelly to do it. But there’s nobody else to call.”

[LA Ute]

In my interactions with people from more diverse backgrounds (I wouldn't have had if I wasn't connected with my wife) I've had conversations with folks who focus on Founders owning slaves, States Rights people looking the other way as Jim Crow happened, and now BLM, and conclude the entire system has been rotten from Day 1.

Drawing in the bigger context, acknowledging history and reality, I point out the progress made. Women aren't property anymore, they can vote. Blacks have made enormous strides in terms of rights and opportunities, with tons of role models to look to.

Are where we need to be? Of course not. Is the Klan back? Well, some are, it was clearly on TV. But every day, in every interaction with people, you can make a difference, for yourself and your kids.

In my interactions with other cultures - African American, Native American, Latino, Poly - a stereotype of white people sometimes emerges. "Watch your wallet!" "Smooth talkers, you'll end up with less, they end up with more". In Hawai'i the conquering of the islands was from "missionaries, then merchants, and finally the Marines". Etc.

Two of my sons worked a very short time in door to door security sales in Texas a couple of summers ago. My sons were coveted because they could open doors in the hood with their appearances. But the whole thing was extremely scammy, and the A-holes running this thing were bragging about fleecing the stupid people in the hood (I've sanitized the language), even around my sons, because "you two aren't really black".

After a week, I flew my kids home, proud of them for confronting the predators & getting out of that sleazy operation. "Lesson learned: There are people and parts of America to avoid. Do what YOU can to dispel lingering racism, and don't let it defeat you".

Shapiro's approach is confrontation & contrast, pumping up a specific view within his tribe. I've had better results acknowledging the past & current issues, but emphasizing progress and pointing to a brighter, achievable future.


Here's the nut I'm having a harder time cracking - our economic system increasingly rewards not effort, but results. In the Information Age, this is the sequel to "Revenge of the Nerds", but the results are dramatically different economic outcomes (salaries & wealth), based on noodle power.

In WWII, in the Space Race, we as a people could embrace and support our "best and brightest", as it meant success as a nation from a specific threat from other nations. Today if I bring in a "free agent", an IT version of Kevin Durrant, the salary discrepancy is tough for those who've been loyal, been working their butts off, really good people.

The Space Race and WWII were won, they were tangible targets to achieve and celebrate. The drive for organizations to excel today - or at least not be left behind - means salary competition for the "best and brightest", and there's no end in sight. It's an ongoing, corrosive mix.

The real irony is a large segment of Trump's base are at heart good people, "steady Eddies", who are looking for him to create equality of outcome... for them. Hence the rhetoric against Amazon, "trade wars are good and easy to win", etc. The enemy often isn't another country - it's our fellow Americans.

You’re describing a lot of the chaff, and it’s pretty depressing chaff. But it is the chaff. Washington was a great man, despite the chaff in his life (owning slaves). Same with Lincoln, TR, FDR, JFK, Reagan. We’d all be worse off today without them. On the other hand, Confederate heroes are mostly chaff, IMO. Any statues of them belong in museums. And so on. America is a great country with many warts. The beauty of our nation is that it is based on a great, aspirational idea (see the Declaration of Independence), and it is capable of changing and improving, and of moving ever closer to fulfilling its potential and living up to that idea. Saying the USA and its history are awful misses the point of our existence as a nation.

Deposit $.02!

[Rocker Ute]

I don't know if this is true or not, but it doesn't take much imagination to believe that it is true.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-john-kelly-fire-white-house-olivia-nuzzi-pence-pompeo-oval-office-a8578486.html?utm_source=reddit.com

Doesn't make too much sense, but comical to imagine anyway. I love the notion of having a list of accomplishments to give out to people.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Irving Washington]

I think you’re throwing out the baby with a tiny bit of bath water. Shapiro’s hard to take sometimes but the “arsonist” bit was just a figure of speech. The parts I quoted were his good points. For example:



What’s to disagree with there?

The J.J. McCullough piece you link closed with this:



I liked the piece, which I found thought-provoking, but I think the above is a silly bit of reductive thinking. Awful, IMO. I’m not a teacher but if he were a student in my composition class I’d give him an F and make him re-write his piece.
I guess I should read both articles, and maybe I'll get around to it, but my gut response is that while self-flagellation is harmful, and we need to remember all of the good, you at least have to acknowledge all of those negatives and understand how they may affect our current thinking. Too many people won't even acknowledge those dark parts of the past, and consider you unpatriotic if you do.

[Ma'ake]

I guess I should read both articles, and maybe I'll get around to it, but my gut response is that while self-flagellation is harmful, and we need to remember all of the good, you at least have to acknowledge all of those negatives and understand how they may affect our current thinking. Too many people won't even acknowledge those dark parts of the past, and consider you unpatriotic if you do.

Totally agree. I have no problem reading and acknowledging the ugly parts of the past. We're human beings, some crazy stuff has happened. But as LA pointed out, the ideals we've aspired to are enlightened, and through some tough spots, we've emerged in a better place. Truman integrated the military, got a lot of pushback in doing so, but look what that has done, for everyone involved.

Even with our warts, the US has been the leader of the world (overall) in many different ways. The downtrodden, those looking to escape tyranny & persecution, have come here and added to our mosaic. DeToqueville and France saw it, gave us a massive statue that epitomizes the ideals we espouse with our acceptance of immigrants. (Cue Neil Diamond's "Coming to America")

For some reason, some folks struggle with dealing with nuance and ambiguity. You're either great, or you're crap, and there can be no blending.

But like the filmroom for a football team, I think you have to deal with reality and nuance, what actually happened. THEN you can figure out how best to move forward, better informed, striving to avoid mistakes and building upward.

[LA Ute]

I suspect there will be more agreement here on this subject.

Growing number of U.S. children not vaccinated against any disease


An estimated 100,000 young children have not had a vaccination against any of the 14 diseases for which shots are recommended, according to a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report released Thursday.

“This is pretty concerning. It’s something we need to understand better — and reduce,” said the CDC’s Dr. Amanda Cohn.

Most young children — 70 percent — have had all their shots. The new estimate is based on finding that, in 2017, 1.3 percent of the children born in 2015 were completely unvaccinated. That’s up from the 0.9 percent seen in an earlier similar assessment of the kids born in 2011. A 2001 survey with a different methodology suggested the proportion was in the neighborhood of 0.3 percent.

Young children are especially vulnerable to complications from vaccine-preventable diseases, some of which can be fatal.

I think the people who refuse to vaccinate their children are endangering their own kids, as well as their kids’ friends. Among other things, it’s my understanding that failing to vaccinate creates opportunities for diseases once thought eradicated to return to the population.

[Diehard Ute]

I suspect there will be more agreement here on this subject.

Growing number of U.S. children not vaccinated against any disease



I think the people who refuse to vaccinate their children are endangering their own kids, as well as their kids’ friends. Among other things, it’s my understanding that failing to vaccinate creates opportunities for diseases once thought eradicated to return to the population.

It’s already happening.

When my daughter was born at the U 2 months ago we appreciated their restrictions which made anyone who couldn’t show a current TDaP vaccine wear a mask anywhere on the unit.

Whooping cough is becoming a big problem. Especially in Utah county


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[Scratch]

It’s already happening.

When my daughter was born at the U 2 months ago we appreciated their restrictions which made anyone who couldn’t show a current TDaP vaccine wear a mask anywhere on the unit.

Whooping cough is becoming a big problem. Especially in Utah county


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep. Ban them from public schools.

[Rocker Ute]

A woman in my neighborhood had polio as a child. Nicest person on earth, her physical quality of life is seriously compromised. I wish she could meet all these anti-vaccinators.

We forget what these diseases the immunizations prevent used to do.


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[U-Ute]

Anti-vaxxers drive me nuts.

2427

[LA Ute]

I’m not big on gun rights, but this seems silly to me. Virtue-signaling much more than policy.

LA Passes Ordinance Requiring City Contractors To Disclose NRA Ties

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2018/10/10/la-ordinance-requires-city-contractors-disclose-nra-ties/?fbclid=IwAR3SdyJGf3ktGGqTgc3T7hgIb5yD0AhUblQ_IVRN T2EgNyA6-eASWeUdudA

My city is trying to play catch-up with San Francisco, which is doing the same regarding Berkeley.

[sancho]

I’m not big on gun rights, but this seems silly to me. Virtue-signaling much more than policy.

LA Passes Ordinance Requiring City Contractors To Disclose NRA Ties

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2018/10/10/la-ordinance-requires-city-contractors-disclose-nra-ties/?fbclid=IwAR3SdyJGf3ktGGqTgc3T7hgIb5yD0AhUblQ_IVRN T2EgNyA6-eASWeUdudA

My city is trying to play catch-up with San Francisco, which is doing the same regarding Berkeley.

We are wrong to care about politics as much as we do. It's crazy how many people are unable to work, play, and/or associate with people who believe differently.

[LA Ute]

We are wrong to care about politics as much as we do. It's crazy how many people are unable to work, play, and/or associate with people who believe differently.

The majority of my close friends are liberals. There's something wrong with them, or with me, or maybe with both them and me.

[LA Ute]

One of the greatest political ads ever.


https://youtu.be/TjYihTRTrhw

[LA Ute]

I am not taking any side in this matter, it’s just very interesting, and the outcome of the lawsuit will be interesting too, perhaps significant.

Basic facts: A guy with an “agritourism” business, which involves a lot of re-enacting of historical events, supports Trump on social media. His operation is pretty well-known. (I know of him because many of the Latter-day Saint congregations in Southern California use his farm as a base for pioneer treks.) Anti-Trump people inside and outside of public school districts launched a boycott of his business. Response: A civil rights lawsuit.

Here’s the federal court compliant filed in the Central District of California:

https://www.scribd.com/document/390751806/Complaint-Against-Claremont-USD-Et-Al-Dkt-1-as-Filed-10-12-18

[Irving Washington]

I am not taking any side in this matter, it’s just very interesting, and the outcome of the lawsuit will be interesting too, perhaps significant.

Basic facts: A guy with an “agritourism” business, which involves a lot of re-enacting of historical events, supports Trump on social media. His operation is pretty well-known. (I know of him because many of the Latter-day Saint congregations in Southern California use his farm as a base for pioneer treks.) Anti-Trump people inside and outside of public school districts launched a boycott of his business. Response: A civil rights lawsuit.

Here’s the federal court compliant filed in the Central District of California:

https://www.scribd.com/document/390751806/Complaint-Against-Claremont-USD-Et-Al-Dkt-1-as-Filed-10-12-18
Just curious - are attorneys who bring religious rights cases and actions like this "civil rights" attorneys?

[LA Ute]

Just curious - are attorneys who bring religious rights cases and actions like this "civil rights" attorneys?

It's not a religious rights case, it's framed in First/Fourteenth Amendment free speech terms. Doesn't 42 U.S.C. § 1983(which I always hear referred to as "Section 1983") allow lawsuits for violations of constitutional rights? I took a quick look at the complaint and it's based on that section and claims the plaintiff's free speech rights under the 1st and 14th Amendments were violated. No religious discrimination claims made. As far as I know, Riley's Farm, the plaintiff, isn't a religious organization, but does lots of historical reenactments. The pioneer trek staging they provide is only one of those. Per the complaint:


Riley’s Farm operates an agritourism business, which it describes as a “living history farm,” in the foothills of the San Bernardino Mountains, in the rural community of Oak Glen, San Bernardino County. Its varied business activities include seasonal “U-Pick” apple and other fruit picking, produce sales, pie, pastry, cider, jam and other food sales, historical and other novelty item sales, a seasonal pumpkin patch, a restaurant and tavern, dinner theater events, hosting of corporate, family and associational events, summer “day camp” activities, film and commercial location shooting, historically-themed activities such as tomahawk throwing, candle dipping and archery, and school field trips. 17.

Depending on the season, Riley’s Farm employs between 28 and 163 full- and part-time workers of diverse backgrounds, with the latter high number being reached during the spring “high season” for school field trips....

Riley’s Farm’s field trip programs include immersive presentations focused on the American Revolution, the Civil War, American colonial farm life, the California Gold Rush, and the pioneer homesteading history of Oak Glen and the San Gorgonio Pass region.

Of these presentations, the American Revolution presentation is the most popular. A large area of the Riley’s Farm premises is landscaped and themed as “Colonial Chesterfield,” portraying a New Hampshire village of the 1770s. A post-and-beam colonial tavern, orchards, a village green, stone walls, a storehouse, and a pillory furnish an authentic period environment. Students are divided into small groups (each typically accompanied by a teacher, aide or volunteer chaperone) and spend the day rotating among “stations” where “living historians” in period dress provide interactive presentations on different aspects of the history of the American Revolution and its time period.

Looks like the complaint (which I've only skimmed) alleges that the Claremont School District has sent students to Riley Farms presentations for many years, that some people involved with the District were angry about political social media commentary by one of Riley's principals, and that somehow they got the District to stop using Riley Farms because of that. I'm no civil rights lawyer but it seems to me a key fact question will be the extent of the District's involvement. State action, you know.

[Irving Washington]

It's not a religious rights case, it's framed in First/Fourteenth Amendment free speech terms. Doesn't 42 U.S.C. § 1983(which I always hear referred to as "Section 1983") allow lawsuits for violations of constitutional rights? I took a quick look at the complaint and it's based on that section and claims the plaintiff's free speech rights under the 1st and 14th Amendments were violated. No religious discrimination claims made. As far as I know, Riley's Farm, the plaintiff, isn't a religious organization, but does lots of historical reenactments. The pioneer trek staging they provide is only one of those. Per the complaint:



Looks like the complaint (which I've only skimmed) alleges that the Claremont School District has sent students to Riley Farms presentations for many years, that some people involved with the District were angry about political social media commentary by one of Riley's principals, and that somehow they got the District to stop using Riley Farms because of that. I'm no civil rights lawyer but it seems to me a key fact question will be the extent of the District's involvement. State action, you know.
I was referring to suits based upon religious rights as a separate group from the case referred to. It was a lame effort at an ironic statement, based upon the traditional complaints about "civil rights attorneys," kind of like "plaintiff's attorneys."
FYI, complaints can be brought under 1983 for violations of federal constitutional or statutory provisions ( although the activist conservative USSC has made it more difficult to enforce statutes.)

[LA Ute]

I was referring to suits based upon religious rights as a separate group from the case referred to. It was a lame effort at an ironic statement, based upon the traditional complaints about "civil rights attorneys," kind of like "plaintiff's attorneys."
FYI, complaints can be brought under 1983 for violations of federal constitutional or statutory provisions ( although the activist conservative USSC has made it more difficult to enforce statutes.)

You're such a commie.

[LA Ute]

Monty Python, 1968:


https://youtu.be/3DlN4Sh06po

[LA Ute]

From a recent Zogby poll:

The Zogby Poll®: Voters feel the mainstream media is also to blame for the spread of hate and misunderstanding; Voters say the mainstream media divides people along racial, gender, and political lines; A majority of Democrats agree.


Based on the results of the recent midterm election in the U.S., in which the Democrats took back control of the House and the Republicans regained a majority in the Senate, suffice it to say, Americans are politically divided. The country is also divided as to who should shoulder the blame: There are some people who feel racial, gender, and political issues are made worse by the coverage of the mainstream media, while there are others who feel the divide we currently suffer from is the result of President Trump's rhetoric.

In order to determine who voters blame more, we asked likely voters in separate questions, "Do you agree or disagree: The mainstream media/President Trump has played a major role in dividing Americans along racial, gender and political lines. This has led to a spread of hate and misunderstanding among some people."

It's no surprise that strong majorities blame both the mainstream media and Trump: Nearly three-quarters agreed (strongly and somewhat agree combined) that the mainstream media plays a major role in the spread of hate, while only 29% disagreed with this notion. This was more than the two-thirds of respondents, who felt the same about President Trump, while one-third disagreed. We will get into the specific details of the president's role, regarding America's political divide, in our next release.

https://zogbyanalytics.com/news/875-the-zogby-poll-voters-feel-the-mainstream-media-is-also-to-blame-for-the-spread-of-hate-and-misunderstanding-voters-say-the-mainstream-media-divides-people-along-racial-gender-and-political-lines-a-majority-of-democrats-agree

[U-Ute]

Not a great pollster. But not awful.

Source: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pollster-ratings/

2444

[LA Ute]

Not a great pollster. But not awful.

Source: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pollster-ratings/

2444

Well, he's a Democrat. What did you expect? :stirthepot:

[U-Ute]

Well, he's a Democrat. What did you expect? :stirthepot:

He's only a Democrat in the sense that he believes in math and science.

:rockon:

[LA Ute]

“At some point you’ve made enough money.” Exactly when does one reach that point? Inquiring minds want to know!

The Obamas are ‘Becoming’ a billion-dollar brand

https://nypost.com/2018/11/17/the-obamas-are-becoming-a-billion-dollar-brand/

[LA Ute]

I am so glad that voter fraud is a myth and never happens.

Election fraud scheme on L.A.'s skid row got homeless to sign fake names for cigarettes, cash, D.A. says (https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-skid-row-voter-fraud-20181120-story.html)

[LA Ute]

I think this is pretty funny.

Russia Wants Bulgarians to Stop Painting Soviet Monuments To Look Like American Superheroes

https://www.earthlymission.com/russia-wants-bulgarians-to-stop-painting-soviet-monuments-to-look-like-american-superheroes/?fbclid=IwAR1Rt962uoGHnLTlNOmXF_Ju0s9Qmbx58usSx4Ro ppWRbE8U26277ReZcx0%C2%A0

[UTEopia]

I am so glad that voter fraud is a myth and never happens.

Election fraud scheme on L.A.'s skid row got homeless to sign fake names for cigarettes, cash, D.A. says (https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-skid-row-voter-fraud-20181120-story.html)



I wonder which ballot measures they were collecting signatures for.

[UTEopia]

I never agree with Mike Lee, but I do on this.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900044267/utah-sen-mike-lee-makes-impassioned-plea-to-pull-us-forces-from-saudi-arabias-war-in-yemen.html

[U-Ute]

An interesting duo teaming up: Neil Gorsuch and Sonia Sotomayor.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/11/neil-gorsuch-sonia-sotomayor-tyson-timbs-civil-forfeiture.html

[Applejack]

An interesting duo teaming up: Neil Gorsuch and Sonia Sotomayor.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/11/neil-gorsuch-sonia-sotomayor-tyson-timbs-civil-forfeiture.html

An incredibly easy case in which to form allegiances. How Indiana (and a bunch of other states too) didn't think that the 8th amendment applied to states is beyond me.

[LA Ute]

“George H.W. Bush was by temperament a man of the middle in an age of increasing ideological polarization. He was a gentleman in a culture growing cruder by the year. Above all he was a man of admirable private and public character who believed in government service for the good of the country and not merely for power. Those virtues made him a better President than his critics admitted.”

https://www.wsj.com/articles/george-herbert-walker-bush-1543680294?mod=mhp

[Irving Washington]

“George H.W. Bush was by temperament a man of the middle in an age of increasing ideological polarization. He was a gentleman in a culture growing cruder by the year. Above all he was a man of admirable private and public character who believed in government service for the good of the country and not merely for power. Those virtues made him a better President than his critics admitted.”

https://www.wsj.com/articles/george-herbert-walker-bush-1543680294?mod=mhp

Don't forget the whole Willie Horton thing. A crass appeal to racism.

[concerned]

Don't forget the whole Willie Horton thing. A crass appeal to racism.


And Lee Atwater. 41 helped usher in the era of polarization and really negative, underhanded campaigining.

[Utebiquitous]

I got news for both you and Lee Atwater. Thomas Jefferson ushered in the era of polarization and really negative, underhanded campaigning. Both of you would do well to know your American history. By the way, blaming Bush 1 for polarization is laughable. That really didn't start happening until post-Clinton (some really good across-the-aisle legislation happened in the Clinton era). We might be able to hold Bush II more accountable for the trend but I would lay much more blame in the modern era on the Republicans during Pres. Obama's administration.

What I'm trying to say is that polarization and negative campaigning has ebbed and flowed in our history. That's the only thing that gives me hope that the climate of our time ebbs.

[USS Utah]

Supporters of John Quincy Adams accused Andrew Jackson of murder. Meanwhile, Jackson supporters were accusing Adams of procuring prostitutes for important people in Washington.

Politics has been this way since day one, though there have been ebbs and flows as Utebiquitous said.

[LA Ute]

Supporters of John Quincy Adams accused Andrew Jackson of murder. Meanwhile, Jackson supporters were accusing Adams of procuring prostitutes for important people in Washington.

Politics has been this way since day one, though there have been ebbs and flows as Utebiquitous said.

I blame George Washington. Without him there’s none of this nonsense.

[LA Ute]

Nice editorial cartoon about Bush 41’s passing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/2018/12/01/how-this-emotional-george-hw-bush-cartoon-went-viral-touching-even-his-family/?wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1

[U-Ute]

Rudy Guiliani accidentally tweeted a link.

If you click on it, it is amazing.

SFW

1068570837459050496

[U-Ute]

Aha. It turns out that with the way he wrote the tweet (with no space between the "G20." and the "In", Twitter tried to interpret it as a link. it initially went to a page that didn't exist, so someone bought the domain and put the page up.

[LA Ute]

George H. W. Bush back in 1989 on whether he was too nice a guy to be president.

https://twitter.com/FaceTheNation/status/1068931589030195200?fbclid=IwAR2QIARZIOd5ypHD-7f_QDIHlOjEVH7g0zZegCiVWvsrF-r9qdS9ROwn6WA

[Applejack]

Two random semi-political thoughts:

1. There is genuine affection for George HW Bush today in DC. Numerous churches dowtown are holding impromptu services for our past president. Nice to see.
2. RBG is looking frailer than usual. I caught her at the high court recently, and she slumped our of view of the audience during the argument at times, either because she nodded off or didn't have the strength to hold herself up.

[Applejack]

These lifetime appointments are bonkers...and cruel.

https://www.utahby5.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2465&stc=1

[U-Ute]

So much for a "peaceful transfer of power" at the state level.

The GOP dominated houses of North Carolina, Michigan, and Wisconsin are rapidly trying to pass bills before the beginning of the year to strip power from the incoming Democratic Governor.

This is only going to get worse before it gets better.

[LA Ute]

So much for a "peaceful transfer of power" at the state level.

The GOP dominated houses of North Carolina, Michigan, and Wisconsin are rapidly trying to pass bills before the beginning of the year to strip power from the incoming Democratic Governor.

This is only going to get worse before it gets better.

Don't they have state constitutions in those states? How does the legislative branch there limit the executive's powers?

[U-Ute]

Don't they have state constitutions in those states? How does the legislative branch there limit the executive's powers?

They do, but it is being written by the legislature and signed by the governor. So by definition they are following the state constitution.

One branch is enabling the other branch to do a power grab because it won't be his problem.

[Sullyute]

So much for a "peaceful transfer of power" at the state level.

The GOP dominated houses of North Carolina, Michigan, and Wisconsin are rapidly trying to pass bills before the beginning of the year to strip power from the incoming Democratic Governor.

This is only going to get worse before it gets better.

It is political shenanigans like this that lead people to not vote or vote for any non-politician (i.e. Trump, Schwarzinegger, Ventura, etc.)

[NorthwestUteFan]

Don't they have state constitutions in those states? How does the legislative branch there limit the executive's powers?In Wisconsin and thanks to gerrymandering, the Republicans won 43% of the votes but they control 63% of the seats in the legislature. The situation is remarkably undemocratic, made even worse by legislatively removing power from the incoming governor and also from the state AG (by establishing a law that allows the legislature to hire outside counsel for specific, ongoing cases - including a gerrymandering case).

It could almost be considered a fascist take over.

[mUUser]

https://www.utahby5.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2465&stc=1


OK. That's funny. :) :clap:

[Ma'ake]

Impressive display of flying under the radar by Mueller, these days:

- 3 significant court filings, some with more redactions than released text.

- New term: "political synergy" (nice way to steer clear of using "collusion")

Those who are following closely see the noose clearly tightening, and most (myself included, in the day-to-day stuff) have avoided following the general story.

Just about everyone I know is disengaged, we all needed a good post-election detox.

My hunch is Mueller is steadily pushing forward but keeping a low profile, mindful of the risk of a full-blown constitutional crisis, especially until the new House is seated.

If these guys find a way to screw up the bowl game, I'll be bent. ;)

[Rocker Ute]

Impressive display of flying under the radar by Mueller, these days:

- 3 significant court filings, some with more redactions than released text.

- New term: "political synergy" (nice way to steer clear of using "collusion")

Those who are following closely see the noose clearly tightening, and most (myself included, in the day-to-day stuff) have avoided following the general story.

Just about everyone I know is disengaged, we all needed a good post-election detox.

My hunch is Mueller is steadily pushing forward but keeping a low profile, mindful of the risk of a full-blown constitutional crisis, especially until the new House is seated.

If these guys find a way to screw up the bowl game, I'll be bent. ;)

I think Trump can hear the hounds closing in on his location. Expect all sorts of distracting craziness to ensue. (Maybe the dismissal of Kelly is the beginning).

It is pretty amusing to see a very Baghdad Bob-esque claim from Trump and Giuliani that these documents clear him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

France to Probe Possible Russian Influence on Yellow Vest Riots

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-09/pro-russia-social-media-aims-at-macron-as-yellow-vests-rage

I guess the 1980s are no longer asking to have their foreign policy back.

[concerned]

France to Probe Possible Russian Influence on Yellow Vest Riots

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-09/pro-russia-social-media-aims-at-macron-as-yellow-vests-rage

I guess the 1980s are no longer asking to have their foreign policy back.


What a stupid comment by Obama. How naive of him. Good thing your Republican administration sees Russia for what it is and has implemented a foreign policy to counter the threat.


p.s. at least Obama sanctioned Russia for the Ukraine and 2016 election interference.

[LA Ute]

What a stupid comment by Obama. How naive of him. Good thing your Republican administration sees Russia for what it is and has implemented a foreign policy to counter the threat.


p.s. at least Obama sanctioned Russia for the Ukraine and 2016 election interference.

Trump has made comments about Russia that are far more idiotic than Obama's debate statement.

[LA Ute]

Trump has made comments about Russia that are far more idiotic than Obama's debate statement.

That said, Republicans and the punditry
are not chortling over Trump’s stupid Russia statements the way Dems and pundits did over Obama’s debate comment, which was considered a masterful zinger.

[Ma'ake]

That said, Republicans and the punditry
are not chortling over Trump’s stupid Russia statements the way Dems and pundits did over Obama’s debate comment, which was considered a masterful zinger.

We now see Obama's zinger as naïve.

44 former Senators (including 10 GOP) signed this open letter to the current Senate: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-are-former-senators-the-senate-has-long-stood-in-defense-of-democracy--and-must-again/2018/12/10/3adfbdea-fca1-11e8-ad40-cdfd0e0dd65a_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.5f4fdeda7128

(I think the ex-Senators are premature, but they may be correct in that things could move quickly and in a very bad direction.)

Anticipating the direction of the investigations is not precise, but one serious possibility is the NRA was infused with laundered money from Moscow.

Human nature is to rationalize your own behavior (especially if you didn't have ill intent).

How odd would it be if substantial parts of the right (including NRA members) push back against the (presumed) findings of the investigations, take a revisionist view of what we once viewed as "Freedom vs Communism", and essentially agree with Obama's naïve zinger?

"Russia's really not that bad, we should let Trump try to fix the unruly and dysfunctional parts of American society"

[concerned]

That said, Republicans and the punditry
are not chortling over Trump’s stupid Russia statements the way Dems and pundits did over Obama’s debate comment, which was considered a masterful zinger.


Right. The conservative punditry has the very high ground on this one. Who said what when and who gets blamed for it is so much more important than actually doing something about it. At least Obama did that. As Maake points out, many repubs, Trump, McConnell, the NRA are practically in bed with the Russians (and the Saudis).

[LA Ute]

Right. The conservative punditry has the very high ground on this one. Who said what when and who gets blamed for it is so much more important than actually doing something about it. At least Obama did that. As Maake points out, many repubs, Trump, McConnell, the NRA are practically in bed with the Russians (and the Saudis).

What?! You’re believing Ma’ake instead of me? Scandalous!

[concerned]

What?! You’re believing Ma’ake instead of me? Scandalous!

I am proud to consider myself Ma'ake's virtual comrade in arms. (choice of words may or may not be ironic; maybe I should have said brother in arms)

[LA Ute]

I am proud to consider myself Ma'ake's virtual comrade in arms. (choice of words may or may not be ironic; maybe I should have said brother in arms)

A commie-Freudian slip.

[Ma'ake]

A commie-Freudian slip.

lol.

I'm not even sure the Rooskies use that phrase anymore.

Speaking of Rooskies, who can pinpoint this quote?


Survival kit contents check. In them you'll find: one forty-five caliber automatic; two boxes of ammunition; four days' concentrated emergency rations; one drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills, pep pills, sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills; one miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible; one hundred dollars in rubles; one hundred dollars in gold; nine packs of chewing gum; one issue of prophylactics; three lipsticks; three pair of nylon stockings. Shoot, a fella' could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff.

[NorthwestUteFan]

https://youtu.be/vPwW7RaPO_g

Great scene, great movie!

[Irving Washington]

https://youtu.be/vPwW7RaPO_g

Great scene, great movie!
No other movie is in the same universe when it comes to Rooskie/Commie quotes.

[LA Ute]

I hope they find a motive for this atrocity. It’s often such a mystery.

_____________________

“Witnesses said the suspect shouted ‘Allahu Akhbar’ as he fired at pedestrians and used his knife. According to Mr Heitz, Mr Chekatt has 27 previous convictions in Germany, Switzerland and France, and was placed on the terror watch-list while in prison in 2015 after he showed signs of radicalisation.” The London Telegraph reports that “France says it cannot ‘rule out’ that a suspected terrorist has fled to neighbouring Germany after killing at least two people and injuring 13 in the eastern French city of Strasbourg.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/12/12/strasbourg-shooting-christmas-market-terror-suspect-run-killing/

[LA Ute]

It´s starting to look like this ¨deplatforming¨ tactic is not a left on right thing, but a far-left on everyone thing.


The protesters, who were organized by the Los Angeles Community Action Network and the Los Angeles chapter of the Democratic Socialists of America, resorted to shouting over Garcetti so that he could not continue his speech — a tactic known as “deplatforming” that has been commonly employed against speakers deemed controversial by campus activists.

As Garcetti tried to respond to each complaint individually, the protesters tried to drown him out by singing a revised rendition of “Santa Claus is Coming Town.”

“You better watch out, you better not cry, Eric Garcetti is telling us lies, human rights violations happening now,” they sang.

Garcetti tried to quiet the crowd by citing his first amendment rights, but was unsuccessful.“Do you respect 1st Amendment rights, do you?” Garcetti said to a one man who refused to listen to his response.
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/los-angeles-mayor-shouted-down-by-protesters-during-speech/

[Ma'ake]

Just when you think things can't get any weirder... the National Enquirer makes a deal to tell all regarding payments and other activities related to Individual-1.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/publisher-of-the-national-enquirer-admits-to-hush-money-payments-made-on-trumps-behalf/2018/12/12/ebf24b76-fe49-11e8-83c0-b06139e540e5_story.html?utm_term=.d34cbd67904b

I can't take anything the National Enquirer says seriously. But somebody has to be reading it, they're still in business... and apparently not on the President's side.

Given their constituency - and that group's likely political orientation - this just might be the beginning of the end of the Enquirer. (I was always fonder of the "Weekly World News" - example headline: "Dinosaurs Still Roam the Earth!")

[LA Ute]

The Best Shot for Democrats Is Biden/Beto

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/12/14/the_best_shot_for_democrats_is_bidenbeto_138929.ht ml

[concerned]

The Best Shot for Democrats Is Biden/Beto

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/12/14/the_best_shot_for_democrats_is_bidenbeto_138929.ht ml
I dunno. Given the metoo movement and the surge of dem women in congress, there may have to be a woman on the ticket. I think there are a lot of voters who want to vote for a woman but could not vote for hillary. Time is getting riper. Could be a dem; could be nikki haley. I wonder would accept vp if trump replaces pence on the ticket.

[Ma'ake]

It will be fascinating to see the impact (if any) of Maria Butina's admission she & Russian Central Bank president Alexander Torshin sought to cultivate grass roots support in America for Russia through the NRA.

Most of the NRA folks I know would recoil at this hypothetic scenario, previously.

Will they now rationalize it, or will there be pressure on Wayne La Pierre?

[Rocker Ute]

The Best Shot for Democrats Is Biden/Beto

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/12/14/the_best_shot_for_democrats_is_bidenbeto_138929.ht ml


Please no Joe Biden. Is this really the best that America can do?

[LA Ute]

Wow. I’m surprised — and glad —- that his guy had been dumb enough to be open about what he does.

The godfather
of fake news
Meet one of the world’s most
prolific writers of disinformation

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/the_godfather_of_fake_news?fbclid=IwAR2eP0gkGt2TQx 9Ch_7olMLLB0h16tUMfe72GJC9PjkG8tnjAenrN9iO4Rg

[U-Ute]

Wow. I’m surprised — and glad —- that his guy had been dumb enough to be open about what he does.

The godfather
of fake news
Meet one of the world’s most
prolific writers of disinformation

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/the_godfather_of_fake_news?fbclid=IwAR2eP0gkGt2TQx 9Ch_7olMLLB0h16tUMfe72GJC9PjkG8tnjAenrN9iO4Rg

I think my dad reposted every one of his articles on FB.

[LA Ute]

I think my dad reposted every one of his articles on FB.

Our political culture is really sick right now.

[LA Ute]

Interesting.

Iraq makes Christmas Day an official nationwide holiday to mark 'the occasion of the birth of Jesus Christ'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6528453/Iraq-makes-Christmas-Day-official-nationwide-holiday-mark-birth-Jesus-Christ.html

[LA Ute]

The 20 Worst Quotes of 2018

20. "We’re not going to make America great again. It was never that great. We have not reached greatness." — CNN host Andrew Cuomo

19. “And it would be a short war [between the government and gun owners who refused to give up their weapons], my friend. The government has nukes. Too many of them. But they’re legit. I’m sure if we talked we could find common ground to protect our families and communities.” – Rep. Eric Swalwell (D-Calif.)

18. "'Don't vote for the ching-chong!" — Detroit Rep. Bettie Cook Scott on Asian opponent

17. "'But I can't afford to pay my employees $15 an hour! I'd go out of business!' Then go out of business. If you can't afford to pay a #livingwage & make payroll, you shouldn't be in business. It's not your workers' responsibility to subsidize your sh*tty business #FightFor15" — Civil rights activist Danielle Muscato

16. “I’m sorry, I know he lost his eye in war, or whatever.”— Pete Davidson on SNL mocks ex-SEAL Dan Crenshaw who lost his eye to an IED

15. "You're a slave to free thinking." — Blogger Perez Hilton

14. "Time for us white male Christians to take a step back and give power to others, and make ourselves dispensable." — Political consultant Matthew Dowd

13. "They'll say, 'Well, I'm not racist. I just voted for him because I didn't like Hillary Clinton.' And I just want to say that's not — that doesn't make you not racist. It actually makes you racist." -- CNN analyst Kirsten Powers

12. "Never trust anyone who doesn’t regularly french kiss animals." -- Actor Lena Dunham

11. "Guess who's perpetuating all of these kinds of actions? It's the men in this country. I just want to say to the men in this country, just shut up! And step up. Do the right thing for a change." — Sen. Mazie Hirono (D-Hawaii)

10. “Divorce your Republican husbands.” – Attorney Jill Filipovic

9. "Almost every single person I’ve ever heard of with an AR-15 has been a mass murderer." — Author Nina Burleigh

8. “There's a new axis of evil: Russia, Saudi Arabia -- and the United States.” – New York Times columnist Paul Krugman

7. “To all Noble Undocumented ‘immigrants:’ We apologize for our bigotry and racism. It is Nazism to not allow you to vote in our elections. After all, national borders is Nazism. Nationhood is Nazism. In a just world, everyone should get to vote in any district. #WeApologize” – Canadian scientist Gad Saad

6. "White folks are going down. And Satan is going down. And Farrakhan, by God’s grace, has pulled a cover off of that Satanic Jew, and I’m here to say your time is up, your world is through." — Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan

5. "We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them." — CNN host Don Lemon

4. " We should rip Barron Trump from his mother's arms and put him in a cage with pedophiles and see if mother will stand up against the giant @sshole she is married to.” — Actor Peter Fonda

3) "The virgin birth story is about an all-knowing, all-powerful deity impregnating a human teen. There is no definition of consent that would include that scenario." — Minnesota State University associate professor Eric Sprankle

2. "I have noticed that [Trump] Junior here has a habit of posting nonsense about me whenever the Mueller investigation heats up. Please, keep it coming Jr - it’s definitely a ‘very, very large brain’ idea to troll a member of a body that will have subpoena power in a month. " — Congresswoman-elect Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.)

1. "If you see anybody from that [Trump] Cabinet in a restaurant, in a department store, at a gasoline station, you get out and you create a crowd and you push back on them, and you tell them they’re not welcome anymore, anywhere." -- Rep. Maxine Waters (D-Calif.)

https://pjmedia.com/trending/the-20-worst-quotes-of-2018/

[concerned]

The 20 Worst Quotes of 2018



https://pjmedia.com/trending/the-20-worst-quotes-of-2018/


None of Trumps 7500 lies made the list?

[LA Ute]

None of Trumps 7500 lies made the list?

I didn’t have enough memory left on my
phone.

[Ma'ake]

The 20 Worst Quotes of 2018

4. " We should rip Barron Trump from his mother's arms and put him in a cage with pedophiles and see if mother will stand up against the giant @sshole she is married to.” — Actor Peter Fonda

3) "The virgin birth story is about an all-knowing, all-powerful deity impregnating a human teen. There is no definition of consent that would include that scenario." — Minnesota State University associate professor Eric Sprankle

2. "I have noticed that [Trump] Junior here has a habit of posting nonsense about me whenever the Mueller investigation heats up. Please, keep it coming Jr - it’s definitely a ‘very, very large brain’ idea to troll a member of a body that will have subpoena power in a month. " — Congresswoman-elect Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.)

https://pjmedia.com/trending/the-20-worst-quotes-of-2018/

2, 3 & 4 are all notable and/or funny. First of all, I'm surprised Peter Fonda is still alive. It's a pretty funny quip, though. I'll bet Barron's autobiography in about 20 years will be interesting.

The virgin birth line is funny, too, just for the absurdity. AOC's line is good, too, because even though she's a 28 year old idealist who has some growing up to do, having her lined up against Jr. is a mismatch, every time.

[U-Ute]

2, 3 & 4 are all notable and/or funny. First of all, I'm surprised Peter Fonda is still alive. It's a pretty funny quip, though. I'll bet Barron's autobiography in about 20 years will be interesting.

The virgin birth line is funny, too, just for the absurdity. AOC's line is good, too, because even though she's a 28 year old idealist who has some growing up to do, having her lined up against Jr. is a mismatch, every time.

My wife had a discussion with one of our neighbors about #3.

She pointed out that Gideon told Mary that she would be visited by God and impregnated by him without ever seeing him.

She's convinced Gideon is a normal serial rapist.

[Rocker Ute]

2, 3 & 4 are all notable and/or funny. First of all, I'm surprised Peter Fonda is still alive. It's a pretty funny quip, though. I'll bet Barron's autobiography in about 20 years will be interesting.

The virgin birth line is funny, too, just for the absurdity. AOC's line is good, too, because even though she's a 28 year old idealist who has some growing up to do, having her lined up against Jr. is a mismatch, every time.

Wow.

Peter Fonda's quote, if I remember at the time, was not meant as a joke. And, even if so, joking (or not) about a child being raped by pedophiles crosses the line by any reasonable standard, I don't care how much a public figure that child is, nor how repugnant his father is. I despise Trump but can't find the ability to dismiss or find humor in that one.

If someone made a comment like that about one of my children they'd be breathing through a straw.

This is a stark example of how bad tribalism really is in the US today.

[LA Ute]

There must be a similar list of stupid right-wing statements. Anybody know? I believe in equal ridicule of political silliness.

[Diehard Ute]

There must be a similar list of stupid right-wing statements. Anybody know? I believe in equal ridicule of political silliness.

I don’t think Trump’s twitter history can fit in this thread


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rocker Ute]

If you eliminated Trump from the conservative list you would need to add somewhere Orin Hatch saying Trump may be the best president ever.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ma'ake]

Wow.

Peter Fonda's quote, if I remember at the time, was not meant as a joke. And, even if so, joking (or not) about a child being raped by pedophiles crosses the line by any reasonable standard, I don't care how much a public figure that child is, nor how repugnant his father is. I despise Trump but can't find the ability to dismiss or find humor in that one.

If someone made a comment like that about one of my children they'd be breathing through a straw.

This is a stark example of how bad tribalism really is in the US today.

I would hope you wouldn't waste any energy, let alone a serious punch, on Peter Fonda. He makes sister Jane look bright and insightful. We lost Dennis Hopper, but still have Peter Fonda? We just lost Super Dave Osborne, too, who wasn't *that* funny, but still far better than Fonda.

I thought the quote was ridiculously absurd, and coming from him, completely worthless.

Now, if Peter Fonda developed a movement, and more than a tiny fringe of people started to take him seriously, said outrageous things which caused even good religious people to bend their morality into pretzels, demanded complete loyalty, lied 15 times a day about everything and anything, then became president and declared that he knows more about technology than anyone else... then I might help you make him rely on a straw.

[Ma'ake]

There must be a similar list of stupid right-wing statements. Anybody know? I believe in equal ridicule of political silliness.

3 from yesterday:

- Obama fired Mattis, and essentially, so did I

- I know more about drones and technology than anybody

- Syria is basically sand and death. No serious wealth opportunities there.

[U-Ute]

3 from yesterday:

- Obama fired Mattis, and essentially, so did I

- I know more about drones and technology than anybody

- Syria is basically sand and death. No serious wealth opportunities there.

Don't forget this gem:


Russia used to be the Soviet Union. Afghanistan made it Russia because they went bankrupt fighting in Afghanistan. Russia.

[Rocker Ute]

I would hope you wouldn't waste any energy, let alone a serious punch, on Peter Fonda. He makes sister Jane look bright and insightful. We lost Dennis Hopper, but still have Peter Fonda? We just lost Super Dave Osborne, too, who wasn't *that* funny, but still far better than Fonda.

I thought the quote was ridiculously absurd, and coming from him, completely worthless.

Now, if Peter Fonda developed a movement, and more than a tiny fringe of people started to take him seriously, said outrageous things which caused even good religious people to bend their morality into pretzels, demanded complete loyalty, lied 15 times a day about everything and anything, then became president and declared that he knows more about technology than anyone else... then I might help you make him rely on a straw.

I'm not saying he isn't a fool, I just must of misunderstood you because I thought you were saying what he said was funny.

There isn't a person in Hollywood whose opinion I care about in the remotest sense, but I also believe there are lines drawn that shouldn't be crossed (even when the commander-in-chief tramples on them repeatedly).




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

Don't forget this gem:

Stupid trump quotes are easy. I’m looking for stupid quotes from right wing pundits and celebrities. There must be a collection of them somewhere.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

Stupid trump quotes are easy. I’m looking for stupid quotes from right wing pundits and celebrities. There must be a collection of them somewhere.

www.Foxnews.com




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

www.Foxnews.com (http://www.Foxnews.com)

Ha-ha! On reflection, I doubt there are many because on the left there is no Trump equivalent who can provoke conservatives into making over-the-top statements. Now, when Obama was POTUS, things were different. But Obama is no Trump when it comes to rudeness, bullying, gratuitous insults, crude pugnacity, lack of polish, and everything else. No one in political life is, thank heavens.

[U-Ute]

Stupid trump quotes are easy. I’m looking for stupid quotes from right wing pundits and celebrities. There must be a collection of them somewhere.

Tucker Carlson has been a quote machine lately.


It’s indefensible, so nobody even tries to defend it. Instead, our leaders demand that you shut up and accept this. We have a moral obligation to admit the world’s poor, they tell us, even if it makes our own country poor and dirtier and more divided.

[LA Ute]

Tucker Carlson has been a quote machine lately.

That’s a good one, but I am looking for something Peter Fonda level.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

Tucker Carlson has been a quote machine lately.

He's one of the first that came to mind. His latest is blaming inequality to destabilizing the family unit and increasing incarceration rates. What inequality was he claiming? When women earn more than men.

But the quote that really stands out to me is Laura Ingraham comparing the detained child separation kids along the border to "camp."

[Ma'ake]

Besides all the accurate adjectives LA Ute used, there are some real curiosities in some of the stuff that comes out of Trump's mouth.

Part of his commentary on the Soviets and Afghanistan included the claim that the 1979 invasion was justified to fight terrorists. Except that wasn't the case, and nobody in the obscure corners of Central and South Asian academics thinks this was a valid perspective of what happened almost 40 years ago.

It just so happens the only place where this is being discussed is by Putin's political party in Russia, who are seeking to re-write the history on why the Soviets invaded Afghanistan.

This followed a couple of odd points of emphasis from Trump or his staff in the last couple of years:

- Trump claiming Montenegro is full of very aggressive people who are trying to start WW III. (This was around the same time when a Russian backed coup plan was derailed by one of the insiders, who decided knocking off their Prime Minister wasn't a good idea. That plan was to prevent Montenegro from joining NATO, which they did, anyway.)

- In the first two weeks of the Trump presidency, the US National Security team announced they were following up on reports of Poland seeking to destabilize Belarus... which was reported nowhere else and didn't cause any other nation to take note... because it was a dis-information campaign by Russia to dissuade Belarus from joining NATO.

Trump says a lot of bizarre, offensive and patently untrue things, but where did he get the specific points on the Soviet Afghanistan invasion of 1979, and that Montenegro is a small nation of highly aggressive warmongers trying to usher in the Apocaplyse?

(Rachel Maddow may be an unabashed partisan liberal, but she's pretty smart and her staff digs out some stuff otherwise missed.)

[LA Ute]

Besides all the accurate adjectives LA Ute used, there are some real curiosities in some of the stuff that comes out of Trump's mouth.

Part of his commentary on the Soviets and Afghanistan included the claim that the 1979 invasion was justified to fight terrorists. Except that wasn't the case, and nobody in the obscure corners of Central and South Asian academics thinks this was a valid perspective of what happened almost 40 years ago.

It just so happens the only place where this is being discussed is by Putin's political party in Russia, who are seeking to re-write the history on why the Soviets invaded Afghanistan.

This followed a couple of odd points of emphasis from Trump or his staff in the last couple of years:

- Trump claiming Montenegro is full of very aggressive people who are trying to start WW III. (This was around the same time when a Russian backed coup plan was derailed by one of the insiders, who decided knocking off their Prime Minister wasn't a good idea. That plan was to prevent Montenegro from joining NATO, which they did, anyway.)

- In the first two weeks of the Trump presidency, the US National Security team announced they were following up on reports of Poland seeking to destabilize Belarus... which was reported nowhere else and didn't cause any other nation to take note... because it was a dis-information campaign by Russia to dissuade Belarus from joining NATO.

Trump says a lot of bizarre, offensive and patently untrue things, but where did he get the specific points on the Soviet Afghanistan invasion of 1979, and that Montenegro is a small nation of highly aggressive warmongers trying to usher in the Apocaplyse?

(Rachel Maddow may be an unabashed partisan liberal, but she's pretty smart and her staff digs out some stuff otherwise missed.)



He is such an easy target. Even the Wall Street Journal editorial board bashed him this morning.


Trump’s Cracked Afghan History
His falsehoods about allies and the Soviets reach a new low.

President Trump’s remarks on Afghanistan at his Cabinet meeting Wednesday were a notable event. They will be criticized heavily, and deservedly so. The full text is available on the White House website.

Mr. Trump ridiculed other nations’ commitment of troops to fight alongside America’s in Afghanistan. He said, “They tell me a hundred times, ‘Oh, we sent you soldiers. We sent you soldiers.’”

This mockery is a slander against every ally that has supported the U.S. effort in Afghanistan with troops who fought and often died. The United Kingdom has had more than 450 killed fighting in Afghanistan.

As reprehensible was Mr. Trump’s utterly false narrative of the Soviet Union’s involvement there in the 1980s. He said: “The reason Russia was in Afghanistan was because terrorists were going into Russia. They were right to be there.”

Right to be there? We cannot recall a more absurd misstatement of history by an American President. The Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan with three divisions in December 1979 to prop up a fellow communist government.

The invasion was condemned throughout the non-communist world. The Soviets justified the invasion as an extension of the Brezhnev Doctrine, asserting their right to prevent countries from leaving the communist sphere. They stayed until 1989.

The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was a defining event in the Cold War, making clear to all serious people the reality of the communist Kremlin’s threat. Mr. Trump’s cracked history can’t alter that reality.

Appeared in the January 4, 2019, print edition.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trumps-cracked-afghan-history-11546560234

[LuckyUte]

That’s a good one, but I am looking for something Peter Fonda level.

I googled around and found a few (see below). Not sure how old some of them are, and haven't fact checked any, but thought some were funny. LA Ute, threw in a couple Romney ones and a Hatch one just for you. I know that if I wanted to spend the time, just between Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Sanders, and other pundits, there is a treasure trove of dumb quotes made in 2018.


“Exercise freaks are the ones putting stress on the health care system.” ~ Rush Limbaugh


“Feminism was established so as to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream of society.” ~ Rush Limbaugh


“Good Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions.” ~ Jerry Falwell


“Grown men should not be having sex with prostitutes unless they are married to them.” ~ Jerry Falwell


“[America has to import so many workers because] for the last 35 years we have aborted more than a million people who would have been in our workforce.” ~ Mike Huckabee


“I would not say that the future is necessarily less predictable than the past. I think the past was not predictable when it started.” ~ Donald Rumsfeld


“My grandmother was not a highly educated woman, but she told me as a small child to quit feeding stray animals. You know why? Because they breed. You’re facilitating the problem if you give an animal or a person ample food supply. They will reproduce, especially ones that don’t think too much further than that. And so what you’ve got to do is you’ve got to curtail that type of behavior. They don’t know any better. ~ Andre Bauer


“The only way to reduce the number of nuclear weapons is to use them.” ~ Rush Limbaugh


“The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.” ~ Pat Robertson


“Juarez is reported to be the most dangerous city in America.” ~ Rick Perry


“I had other priorities in the sixties than military service.” ~ Dick Cheney


“I will tell you that I had a mother last night come up to me here in Tampa, Florida, after the debate. She told me that her little daughter took that vaccine, that injection, and she suffered from mental retardation thereafter.” ~ Michele Bachmann


“I feel the best way to ensure Americans’ freedom is to tighten restrictions on that freedom in any way possible. Only through wiretaps, illegal searches and seizures, unfettered government intrusion, a controlled media and a complete crackdown on free speech can we ensure the liberties of all people.” ~ John Ashcroft


“The greatest threat to America is not necessarily a recession or even another terrorist attack. The greatest threat to America is a liberal media bias.” ~ Rep. Lamar Smith


“Carbon dioxide is portrayed as harmful. But there isn’t even one study that can be produced that shows that carbon dioxide is a harmful gas.” ~ Rep. Michele Bachmann


“I should tell my story. I’m also unemployed.” ~ Mitt Romney


“I saw the young man over there with eggs Benedict, with hollandaise sauce. And I was going to suggest to you that you serve your eggs with hollandaise sauce in hubcaps. Because there’s no plates like chrome for the hollandaise.” ~ Mitt Romney


“Capital punishment is our way of demonstrating the sanctity of life.” ~ Orrin Hatch

[Sullyute]

Romney for the win with his lame hollandaise joke.

[LA Ute]

I googled around and found a few (see below). Not sure how old some of them are, and haven't fact checked any, but thought some were funny. LA Ute, threw in a couple Romney ones and a Hatch one just for you. I know that if I wanted to spend the time, just between Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Sanders, and other pundits, there is a treasure trove of dumb quotes made in 2018.


“Exercise freaks are the ones putting stress on the health care system.” ~ Rush Limbaugh


“Feminism was established so as to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream of society.” ~ Rush Limbaugh


“Good Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions.” ~ Jerry Falwell


“Grown men should not be having sex with prostitutes unless they are married to them.” ~ Jerry Falwell


“[America has to import so many workers because] for the last 35 years we have aborted more than a million people who would have been in our workforce.” ~ Mike Huckabee


“I would not say that the future is necessarily less predictable than the past. I think the past was not predictable when it started.” ~ Donald Rumsfeld


“My grandmother was not a highly educated woman, but she told me as a small child to quit feeding stray animals. You know why? Because they breed. You’re facilitating the problem if you give an animal or a person ample food supply. They will reproduce, especially ones that don’t think too much further than that. And so what you’ve got to do is you’ve got to curtail that type of behavior. They don’t know any better. ~ Andre Bauer


“The only way to reduce the number of nuclear weapons is to use them.” ~ Rush Limbaugh


“The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.” ~ Pat Robertson


“Juarez is reported to be the most dangerous city in America.” ~ Rick Perry


“I had other priorities in the sixties than military service.” ~ Dick Cheney


“I will tell you that I had a mother last night come up to me here in Tampa, Florida, after the debate. She told me that her little daughter took that vaccine, that injection, and she suffered from mental retardation thereafter.” ~ Michele Bachmann


“I feel the best way to ensure Americans’ freedom is to tighten restrictions on that freedom in any way possible. Only through wiretaps, illegal searches and seizures, unfettered government intrusion, a controlled media and a complete crackdown on free speech can we ensure the liberties of all people.” ~ John Ashcroft


“The greatest threat to America is not necessarily a recession or even another terrorist attack. The greatest threat to America is a liberal media bias.” ~ Rep. Lamar Smith


“Carbon dioxide is portrayed as harmful. But there isn’t even one study that can be produced that shows that carbon dioxide is a harmful gas.” ~ Rep. Michele Bachmann


“I should tell my story. I’m also unemployed.” ~ Mitt Romney


“I saw the young man over there with eggs Benedict, with hollandaise sauce. And I was going to suggest to you that you serve your eggs with hollandaise sauce in hubcaps. Because there’s no plates like chrome for the hollandaise.” ~ Mitt Romney


“Capital punishment is our way of demonstrating the sanctity of life.” ~ Orrin Hatch

I think Michele Bachman wins the chicken dinner -- twice!

[U-Ute]

That’s a good one, but I am looking for something Peter Fonda level.

See: Alex Jones.

[Applejack]

There is no way that the Ashcroft quote is real.

[Rocker Ute]

There is no way that the Ashcroft quote is real.

"Some of these quotes are made up." -Abraham Lincoln


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[U-Ute]

Snowflake conservatives getting bent about Rashida Tlaib is rich.

[LA Ute]

I thought the O-Cortez dance video was charming.

[LA Ute]

Sure, so did everyone else. But there is some set of people out there convinced that half the nation is completely outraged over it.

Millions of Americans on both ends of the political spectrum need to lighten up.

[LA Ute]

Senator Tim Scott Excoriates the GOP For Being Silent on Rep. Steve King & Racism in Blistering Op-Ed

https://www.redstate.com/kimberly_ross/2019/01/12/tim-scott-excoriates-gop-silent-steve-king-racism-op-ed/

I think Sen. Scott must be applauded. (Red State is a pretty conservative site that I rarely read.) I hope that here we don’t go down the path of beating up on all Republicans as racist, the GOP as a racist party, etc. It’s great that Scott is saying this. There should be no home for racism and leaders like him help make that the case.

I stipulate, BTW, than Trump is a tone-deaf idiot on race. So maybe we can talk about this without endless discussion of something everyone already knows.

Also, here’s National Review and the influential Jonah Goldberg on the same issue:

Steve King’s Bigotry Is the Antithesis of American Ideals

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/01/steve-king-bigotry-antithesis-of-american-ideals/

It was William F. Buckley in the 1950s who pretty much banned the John Birch Society from the party and from the conservative movement. National Review matters.

[LA Ute]

These researchers have academic integrity. Good for them. I hope they redo their study and republish it.

https://nypost.com/2019/01/11/widely-cited-study-of-fake-news-retracted-by-researchers/

[LA Ute]

McCarthy strips Steve King of committee assignments after accusations he backed white supremacy

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/mccarthy-strips-steve-king-of-committee-assignments-after-accusations-he-backed-white-supremacy

I wonder if we’ll see any action about Reps. Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib, on the other side of the aisle.

[Irving Washington]

]B]McCarthy strips Steve King of committee assignments after accusations he backed white supremacy[/B]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/mccarthy-strips-steve-king-of-committee-assignments-after-accusations-he-backed-white-supremacy

I wonder if we’ll see any action about Reps. Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib, on the other side of the aisle.

As the article said, he's had more than one strike. Remind me what Omar and Tlaib said.

[LA Ute]

As the article said, he's had more than one strike. Remind me what Omar and Tlaib said.

I wasn't 100% serious. Here's Tlaib:


Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) displayed a map on her first day in the House of Representatives with a note posted over Israel that reads “Palestine.”

Buzzfeed reporter Hannah Allam posted on Twitter, “Someone has already made a slight alteration to the map that hangs in Rashida Tlaib’s new congressional office.”
Even before she was sworn in on Thursday, which was attended by Women’s March leader and anti-Israel activist Linda Sarsour – who has been criticized for not condemning her ties with anti-Semitic Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan- Tlaib endorsed the BDS movmeent(sic) and announced her own upcoming congressional delegation trip to the West Bank, details of which have not be announced.

https://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/jns/new-congresswoman-tlaib-displays-map-with-israel-replaced-by-palestine/article_d5890df6-bf5c-579a-b8dc-f75939501596.html

That's just a political position that will outrage many. But since I am constantly being challenged for not denouncing everything that any GOP officeholder says or does, I thought I'd have some fun with you guys.

Then there's this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEvv277MTxg&feature=youtu.be

Maybe there will be other Dems admonishing her for descending even beyond Trump's level (or maybe he has used obscenity in public, in front of children, in which case she's descending only to his level).

Here's Ilhan Omar:[I]


Omar, a Muslim Somali-American elected last week to replace outgoing Rep. Keith Ellison (D., Minn.) in the House, fought accusations that she held anti-Israel views during her campaign. As part of that effort, she told a group of Jewish voters in the state that she opposed the economic boycott of Israel, calling it “counteractive” and “not helpful in getting that two-state solution.”

But Omar’s tune has changed since winning the election. In an interview published Sunday by MuslimGirl, Omar said she “supports the BDS movement.”“Ilhan believes in and supports the BDS movement, and has fought to make sure people’s right to support it isn’t criminalized,” her campaign told MuslimGirl, which said Omar had been criticized for coming out against BDS. Omar’s campaign also pointed MuslimGirl to her vote against an anti-BDS bill in Minnesota’s state legislature and her argument that boycott movements were successful in South Africa.The comment is seen as a complete reversal by members of the Jewish community in her district.

Just another political statement, not obscenity. Any denunciation would also be political. And I am aware that many here (like my friend Ma'ake) are not fond of Israel.

One last shot:


The 2018 midterm will bring many new faces to Washington, but few will find as much adoration as Ilhan Omar. One of the first two Muslim women elected to Congress, Omar, who will represent Minnesota’s 5th Congressional District, is a Somali refugee with a celebrity aura and an uplifting story.

What went curiously unmentioned in all the flattering post-election coverage, however, was that Omar, who replaces Keith Ellison — a former acolyte of anti-Semitic minister Louis Farrakhan — also has some exotic notions about the Jewish people.In a 2012 tweet, for instance, the Democrat explained that “Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel. #Gaza #Palestine #Israel.”Meanwhile, the other Muslim woman headed to Congress is Michigan Democrat Rashida Tlaib, the daughter of Palestinian immigrants who wants to cut aid to the Jewish state because supporting it “doesn’t fit the values of our country.”

Writer David Steinberg identified 105 news stories written in the immediate aftermath of Omar’s victory, and not a single one mentioned that she believed Jewry possessed mind-control abilities or that Israel was “evil.” No one called on the Democratic Party to distance itself from this rhetoric.No one at the partisan Anti-Defamation League, ostensibly tasked with stopping anti-Jewish libel but in reality busy hyperventilating over every far-flung right-wing bigot with a handful of supporters, paid her any attention.

https://nypost.com/2018/11/11/heres-the-anti-semitism-the-media-doesnt-want-to-mention/amp/?fbclid=IwAR2O5AQX2LAEkgldG-T626BGml6-yXsfj2MVjn9ysGNgpAOpN8wO6AUGq7Q

Hey, this is your political party, not mine!

[Ma'ake]

And I am aware that many here (like my friend Ma'ake) are not fond of Israel.


Foul ! !

Given the events between that debate & today, I'm far more interested to see how we can get Andy Ludwig to sport a ponytail.

;)

[LA Ute]

Foul ! !

Given the events between that debate & today, I'm far more interested to see how we can get Andy Ludwig to sport a ponytail.

;)

I may have confused you with Pangloss, who is very sympathetic to the Arab cause and not a big fan of Israel. But maybe I’ve got him wrong too.

[UTEopia]

I may have confused you with Pangloss, who is very sympathetic to the Arab cause and not a big fan of Israel. But maybe I’ve got him wrong too.

I am sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and not a big fan of how Israel has been allowed to remove Palestinians from their homes and lands. The walls the Israelis have built along the westbank are reminiscent of the Berlin wall and how it prevented East Germans from traveling back and forth from home to work. The land on which the wall is built was seized from Palestinians without financial recompense. Primarily Palestinian areas within the original borders of Israel have been allowed to turn into ghettos due to a complete failure to provide infrastructure such as water, sewer, electricity, etc. which are provided to Israeli neighborhoods that they border or they have been overtaken by Israeli's. Israel has passed a law allowing it to seize the property of Palestinians for new Israeli settlements. While I understand that Israel is a target for terrorism and has the right to protect itself and its citizens, Israel has been opposed to the two-State solution since it was first established in 1948 and will do everything within its power to prevent a Palestinian state from ever existing again.

[UTEopia]

Will litigation against Big Pharma for opiod related issues turn out the same way as the tobacco litigation of the 80's?

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/01/16/685692474/massachusetts-attorney-general-implicates-family-behind-purdue-pharma-in-opioid-?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[LA Ute]

I am sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and not a big fan of how Israel has been allowed to remove Palestinians from their homes and lands. The walls the Israelis have built along the westbank are reminiscent of the Berlin wall and how it prevented East Germans from traveling back and forth from home to work. The land on which the wall is built was seized from Palestinians without financial recompense. Primarily Palestinian areas within the original borders of Israel have been allowed to turn into ghettos due to a complete failure to provide infrastructure such as water, sewer, electricity, etc. which are provided to Israeli neighborhoods that they border or they have been overtaken by Israeli's. Israel has passed a law allowing it to seize the property of Palestinians for new Israeli settlements. While I understand that Israel is a target for terrorism and has the right to protect itself and its citizens, Israel has been opposed to the two-State solution since it was first established in 1948 and will do everything within its power to prevent a Palestinian state from ever existing again.

My own view is that Israel is not blameless in the conflict, which upsets many of my Jewish friends. However, I have heard (repeatedly) strong responses to most of the points you raise. I am not an expert in the conflict so won't wade into those. My point is that there seems to be a strong resurgence of anti-semitism on the left, exemplified by the statements of the two new Democratic members of Congress referred to in my post. The silence from their fellow Democrats has been deafening.

[Ma'ake]

My own view is that Israel is not blameless in the conflict, which upsets many of my Jewish friends. However, I have heard (repeatedly) strong responses to most of the points you raise. I am not an expert in the conflict so won't wade into those. My point is that there seems to be a strong resurgence of anti-semitism on the left, exemplified by the statements of the two new Democratic members of Congress referred to in my post. The silence from their fellow Democrats has been deafening.

There has unquestionably been an uptick in anti-Israel sentiment, in Europe, sometimes from liberal Jews who share resentment at the heavy handed tactics and aversion to a 2-state solution, and see this behavior as being a big part of the uptick in actual anti-Semitism. (From a narrow conservative Israeli standpoint, liberal Jews share the same ground as the KKK, which is, of course, absurd.)

It also gives me even more appreciation for the world view of Native Americans, at least the elegant, sincere, powerful explanation/experience I had in a Shoshone sweat lodge.

[UTEopia]

My own view is that Israel is not blameless in the conflict, which upsets many of my Jewish friends. However, I have heard (repeatedly) strong responses to most of the points you raise. I am not an expert in the conflict so won't wade into those. My point is that there seems to be a strong resurgence of anti-semitism on the left, exemplified by the statements of the two new Democratic members of Congress referred to in my post. The silence from their fellow Democrats has been deafening.

I think there is a fair way to question Israel's conduct and the US's policy in Israel and the greater middle east without being anti-Semitic just as I think one can support strong border control at the southern border without being anti-hispanic. Our current political and societal climate, however, makes it nearly impossible for those in the middle to say anything or accomplish anything because both political parties are governed and controlled by their most extreme wings.

[concerned]

I think there is a fair way to question Israel's conduct and the US's policy in Israel and the greater middle east without being anti-Semitic just as I think one can support strong border control at the southern border without being anti-hispanic. Our current political and societal climate, however, makes it nearly impossible for those in the middle to say anything or accomplish anything because both political parties are governed and controlled by their most extreme wings.

This thread might distinguish between Israel and Netanyahu/Likud.

[LA Ute]

The Democrats’ growing anti-Semitism problem

This week, Democrats cut ties with an anti-Semitic activist organization only to choose an anti-Semitic congresswoman to serve on the House Foreitgn Affairs Committee. The Democratic Party is treating the left’s growing anti-Semitism problem as if it were a mere matter of bad optics. And that’s functionally equivalent to covering it up.

On Monday morning, Women’s March co-president Tamika Mallory went on The View, where she faced a grilling by Meghan McCain over her support for outspoken anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan. “A lot of people, by a lot of people I include me in this, think you’re using your organization as anti-Semitism masked in activism,” McCain said, “and that you’re using identity politics to shield yourself from critiques.”

McCain gave Mallory, who has called Farrakhan “the GOAT” (for Greatest Of All Time), an opportunity to denounce the Nation of Islam leader. Mallory chose instead to downplay her support for him. Less than a day later, the DNC pulled its sponsorship of the Women’s March. Great. But…

On Tuesday night, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi announced that freshman Democratic congresswoman from Minnesota, Ilhan Omar, will sit on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. Some details about Omar: She supports the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanction (BDS) campaign aimed at destroying Israel. In 2012, she tweeted, “Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel.” This week, she went on CNN and defended her tweet. On Omar’s first day in office, she met with anti-Semitic Women’s March leader (and Farrakhan fan) Linda Sarsour.

The House Foreign Affairs Committee oversees House bills and investigations pertaining to U.S. foreign policy, and it has the power to cut American arms and technology shipments to allies. So, while the Democrats are distancing themselves from anti-Semitic activists who organize a march every now and then, they’re raising up anti-Semites to positions of power in the federal government.

Omar isn’t the only one. Rashida Tlaib, the freshman Democratic congresswoman from Michigan, posed for a picture with a Hezbollah supporter named Abbas Hamideh at her swearing-in ceremony in Detroit. She then dined with the man—who has railed against “criminal Zionists” and tweeted things like “Long live [Hezbollah leader] Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah!” Tlaib herself has a history of tweeting out support for anti-Israel terrorists. And recently, when a group of senators opposed a bill protecting localities that boycott Israel, Tlaib said that they “forgot what country they represent.”

There is no cosmetic fix for the anti-Semitism that’s infusing the activist left and creeping into the Democratic Party. It runs to the ideological core of intersectionality—the left’s latest religion. By the lights of intersectionality, Jews are too powerful and too white to be the targets of bigotry. So an anti-Semite is perfectly suitable as an ally against some other form of prejudice—against, say, blacks or women. And when anti-Semitism appears on the left, progressives are ready to explain it away with an assortment of convenient nuances and contextual considerations: It’s not anti-Semitism, it’s anti-Zionism; consider the good work the person has done fighting for other groups; we don’t have to embrace everything someone says to appreciate the good in them, etc.

These new congressional Democrats were celebrated far and wide when they were elected. They’re young, outspoken, and many are female. But that just makes them extraordinarily effective ambassadors for a poisonous ideology.

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/anti-semitism/anti-semitism-ilhan-omar-rashida-tlaib/

[LA Ute]

Debbie Wasserman Schultz: Why I refuse to walk with the Washington Women’s March

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2019/01/18/debbie-wasserman-schultz-linda-sarsour-tamika-mallory-farrakhan-column/2602396002/

[LA Ute]

Fascinating discussion here.


https://youtu.be/LUOUKi_fqCg

[LA Ute]

I personally have no problem at all with the Gillette ad and think the overreaction is silly. I also agree with David French:

https://youtu.be/02nBRzQzG4w

[LA Ute]

Which overreaction? The overreaction of a handful of dumb dudes on Twitter or the overreaction of those pretending that the initial overreaction was widespread?

Just the overreaction I saw on conservative websites and on blogs/op-eds by various right-of-center pundits. Piers Morgan went nuts about it too (he probably was using it as click-bait). I was curious, so I watched the ad, and not only did it not bother me at all, I found the negative reaction off-putting.

I liked this one a lot:


https://youtu.be/x_HL0wiK4Zc

It is described as a reaction or response to the Gillette ad, but they both seem entirely compatible to me.

[Rocker Ute]

Among the potentially false narratives happening is the recent confrontation between an Native American and a catholic school group (and a group identifying themselves as black Hebrew Israelites).

What has been portrayed and widely condemned as a provocation and mockery by white kids wearing MAGA hats on a Native American may be far more nuanced than first portrayed at best and basically false at worst. (And a stark reminder of why I'm glad I'm not a teenager anymore and certainly not in this day and age. Irrespective of this event - oh the hormonal weirdness of a group of teenaged boys gathered together. Can you imagine if everything you did at that age, malignant or benign, was caught on camera for eternity?)

I'm guessing people's view of this will fall along political lines again, but I am tired of all the disinformation. I'd happily settle for slower news if it was more accurate.

Weren't we supposed to be more informed than ever?






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[LA Ute]

Among the potentially false narratives happening is the recent confrontation between an Native American and a catholic school group (and a group identifying themselves as black Hebrew Israelites).

What has been portrayed and widely condemned as a provocation and mockery by white kids wearing MAGA hats on a Native American may be far more nuanced than first portrayed at best and basically false at worst. (And a stark reminder of why I'm glad I'm not a teenager anymore and certainly not in this day and age. Irrespective of this event - oh the hormonal weirdness of a group of teenaged boys gathered together. Can you imagine if everything you did at that age, malignant or benign, was caught on camera for eternity?)

I'm guessing people's view of this will fall along political lines again, but I am tired of all the disinformation. I'd happily settle for slower news if it was more accurate.

Weren't we supposed to be more informed than ever?

Here’s someone who seems to be trying to get it right.

Viral standoff between a tribal elder and a high schooler is more complicated than it first seemed

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/picture-of-the-conflict-on-the-mall-comes-into-clearer-focus/2019/01/20/c078f092-1ceb-11e9-9145-3f74070bbdb9_story.html?wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1


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[Rocker Ute]

Here’s someone who seems to be trying to get it right.

Viral standoff between a tribal elder and a high schooler is more complicated than it first seemed

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/picture-of-the-conflict-on-the-mall-comes-into-clearer-focus/2019/01/20/c078f092-1ceb-11e9-9145-3f74070bbdb9_story.html?wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1


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After seeing more on this, I don't want to be dismissive of some of the youth's apparent bad behavior by saying, "boys will be boys", but what I do know is the ADULTS involved were not being adults.


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[LA Ute]

After seeing more on this, I don't want to be dismissive of some of the youth's apparent bad behavior by saying, "boys will be boys", but what I do know is the ADULTS involved were not being adults.


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The boy in the infamous photo, who’s been described by many as having a “punchable face,” speaks out:

Covington Catholic student from incident at the Indigenous Peoples March issues statement with his side of the story

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/20/covington-catholic-student-video-issues-statement-his-side-story/2634008002/

[mUUser]

The boy in the infamous photo, who’s been described by many as having a “punchable face,” speaks out:

Covington Catholic student from incident at the Indigenous Peoples March issues statement with his side of the story

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/20/covington-catholic-student-video-issues-statement-his-side-story/2634008002/


All caught on tape. Been a lot of backpedaling goin' on.....

[U-Ute]

The boy in the infamous photo, who’s been described by many as having a “punchable face,” speaks out:

Covington Catholic student from incident at the Indigenous Peoples March issues statement with his side of the story

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/20/covington-catholic-student-video-issues-statement-his-side-story/2634008002/

They were all just waiting for the bus in matching MAGA hats and shirts?

I'm not buying it.

I don't think they originally intended to that location in order to get into people's faces, were sitting around bored and probably all juiced up from their first rally and decided to bully someone else.

This happened before they got in front of Nathan Phillips.

1087486166939680768

There's also a video of them chanting "It's not rape if you enjoy it."

So, he's not as innocent in all of this as he'd like us to think.

[Scorcho]

there's probably some fault on both sides. This story just needs to die.

[UtahsMrSports]

Just warning you now - in three years, I'm going to start a "Happy for the MAGA high school kids" thread.

This is genuinely the funniest post in the almost 6 year history of ub5.

[NorthwestUteFan]

there's probably some fault on both sides. This story just needs to die.The blame is placed as follows:

1) The Black Hebrew Israelites group (Google them. They are an Evangelical group who are intentionally provocative in borderline-vile ways to get a rise out if people. Seriously, walk away and ignore them).

1b) The f’ing Russian bot farms who pushed the controversy so hard, both directions, on social media. They are the true winners in this whole story.

2) The student group chaperones. (WTF? Where were they? How in the hell did they let things escalate? I have been around organized kids groups all my life, and am a parent to 4 boys. Separate the kids from situations beyond their understanding before they get in over their heads. And besides, the bus pickup spot is a few hundred yards away from the Lincoln Memorial anyway, not directly in front).

3) The school. What kind of school sends kids 500 miles on buses to attend such a charged event as an anti-abortion rally? (Ignore the fact that none of these boys has a uterus anyhow).

4) The media who immediately attacked the boys, particularly any media member who wished harm on the dumbass kids. They acted without fully vetting the situation.

5) The media who immediately mea culpa-ed and reversed course after reading a single press release from an expensive Kentucky PR firm directly linked to McConnell and the GOP and owned by a CNN contributor. Again, they acted without fully vetting the entire situation.

6) The dumbass kids themselves. They will learn when to walk away from a situation, hopefully. And also, hopefully, they will go to a college where their closed little minds will be opened to the broader realities of life. They will have their own Come To Jesus moments, and we can hope they will make the right choices in life.

7) Uncle Charlie on Facebook who thought these dumbass kids need to be protected at all costs, but thought that 12 yr old Tamir Rice had menacingly provoked the cops with his Airsoft gun and "deserved" to be gunned down within 10 seconds. Everybody has one (or multiple) of those guys in their lives. F that guy (but still remain civil at Thanksgiving).

[LA Ute]

The blame is placed as follows:

1) The Black Hebrew Israelites group (Google them. They are an Evangelical group who are intentionally provocative in borderline-vile ways to get a rise out if people. Seriously, walk away and ignore them).

1b) The fucking Russian bot farms who pushed the controversy so hard, both directions, on social media. They are the true winners in this whole story.

2) The student group chaperones. (WTF? Where were they? How in the hell did they let things escalate? I have been around organized kids groups all my life, and am a parent to 4 boys. Separate the kids from situations beyond their understanding before they get in over their heads. And besides, the bus pickup spot is a few hundred yards away from the Lincoln Memorial anyway, not directly in front).

3) The school. What kind of school sends kids 500 miles on buses to attend such a charged event as an anti-abortion rally? (Ignore the fact that none of these boys has a uterus anyhow).

4) The media who immediately attacked the boys, particularly any media member who wished harm on the dumbass kids. They acted without fully vetting the situation.

5) The media who immediately mea culpa-ed and reversed course after reading a single press release from an expensive Kentucky PR firm directly linked to McConnell and the GOP and owned by a CNN contributor. Again, they acted without fully vetting the entire situation.

6) The dumbass kids themselves. They will learn when to walk away from a situation, hopefully. And also, hopefully, they will go to a college where their closed little minds will be opened to the broader realities of life. They will have their own Come To Jesus moments, and we can hope they will make the right choices in life.

7) Uncle Charlie on Facebook who thought these dumbass kids need to be protected at all costs, but thought that 12 yr old Tamir Rice had menacingly provoked the cops with his Airsoft gun and "deserved" to be gunned down within 10 seconds. Everybody has one (or multiple) of those guys in their lives. **** that guy (but still remain civil at Thanksgiving).

Hadn’t heard about the Russian bots. Vile people. I also wonder about the kids’ leaders. I can see a Catholic school field trip to a pro-life rally but not the MAGA hats. Dumb. Provocative. Partisan. Waving a red flag in front of a bull.

[LA Ute]

OK, this made me laugh.

Increasingly Secular Nation Replaces Outdated Religious Ideas With End Times Prophecies, Moral Judgments

https://babylonbee.com/news/increasingly-secular-nation-replaces-outdated-religious-ideas-with-moral-judgments-end-times-prophecies?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=matt_walsh

[LA Ute]

The Covington students failed to act like grownups. So did the adults.


As a young(ish) blogger, I learned, the hard way, that one should never go full-frontal jerk on the Internet. Partly because one should generally eschew jerkhood. And partly because of what happens if facts later prove your initial response was mistaken.

After you’ve been lobbing flaming insults from the moral high ground, any subsequent climbdown is humiliating. Frequently, people are tempted to cling to their increasingly untenable position, which only extends the period during which they look utter fools.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/adults-are-doing-the-covington-kids-a-terrible-disservice/2019/01/22/9495ea60-1e95-11e9-9145-3f74070bbdb9_story.html

[LA Ute]

“In fourteen hundred and ninety-two, Columbus sailed the ocean blue...”

From the Wall Street Journal:

*****

Catholics Against Columbus

In covering a mural, Notre Dame gives in to the far left’s assault on Western history.

Father John Jenkins, president of the University of Notre Dame, announced Sunday that the school would cover a dozen murals depicting the life of Christopher Columbus. “The murals’ depiction of Columbus as beneficent explorer and friend of the native peoples hides from view the darker side of this story,” he asserted in a letter.

While this decision may give the university a brief respite from its critics, it will never be enough. Columbus may be the momentary object of hatred, but the real target is the Catholic faith itself.

What exactly is the dark side of the Columbus story? The facts do not add up to rash charges of genocide and murder made by his critics. If anything, they reveal a man who was not perfect but still ahead of his time.

Brown University anthropologist Carol Delaney has defended the explorer’s reputation extensively, noting that his interactions with Native Americans tended to be “benign.” And Bartolome de las Casas, the most outspoken defender of the Native Americans in the colonial period, also supported the explorer’s intentions and motivations.

The colonial experience was often traumatic and certainly had its faults. But as a Peruvian-American of color, I still believe there is much to celebrate in how the Americas have changed in the past 500 years. As a Catholic, I particularly value Columbus for bringing the first of many missionaries who showed millions of people the path to salvation.

Any reasonable analysis also must acknowledge that the indigenous world was not perfect either. Take one example.

Human sacrifice was not unusual in my home country, as in much of the Americas. In what is now Peru, children were sacrificed by the Incas in a practice known as Capacocha. Should any positive depictions of the Incas be covered up, in light of this heinous practice? Of course not. And those who hate Columbus and his legacy still must acknowledge that this indigenous practice vanished thanks to the advent of Christianity in our hemisphere.

The notion that indigenous life was perfect and Western culture is the locus of all evil is as absurd as white supremacy. Colonial violence was terrible, but it was not the first violence encountered by Native American cultures. Beyond human sacrifice, tribal and civilizational conflicts existed long before Columbus set foot in this hemisphere. History is nuanced, and seldom does it present binary choices between pure evil and pure good. An academic institution should understand that and not cave in to an ahistoric understanding of the past.

In his letter, Father Jenkins mentioned Martin Luther King Jr. Apparently he was unaware of the irony: Tearing down Columbus monuments has been the work of hateful fringe groups in this country for decades. The Ku Klux Klan pioneered the practice, and antifa has taken up the mantle in recent years. This is the company Notre Dame chooses to keep.

As Catholic universities across the U.S. have become more secular, many hoped that they would at least remain safe for Catholic ideas. But this incident raises a troubling question: If murals that portray Columbus bringing the faith to this hemisphere are not welcome at a Catholic university, what part of Catholic identity is?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/catholics-against-columbus-11548376196

[Rocker Ute]

This local commentary about the Lincoln Memorial incident is pretty stupid, imo.

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2019/01/25/commentary-teacher-ive/

You'd think an educator would get how youth work a little better than she apparently does.

[LA Ute]

This local commentary about the Lincoln Memorial incident is pretty stupid, imo.

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2019/01/25/commentary-teacher-ive/

You'd think an educator would get how youth work a little better than she apparently does.

The human prefrontal cortex doesn’t fully develop until about age 25. We all are especially prone to idiotic behavior until then.


The rational part of a teen's brain isn't fully developed and won't be until age 25 or so. In fact, recent research has found that adult and teen brains work differently. Adults think with the prefrontal cortex, the brain's rational part.

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051

It’s an important part of our gray matter:


This brain region has been implicated in planning complex cognitive behavior, personality expression, decision making, and moderating social behavior.[3] The basic activity of this brain region is considered to be orchestration of thoughts and actions in accordance with internal goals.

The most typical psychological term for functions carried out by the prefrontal cortex area is executive function. Executive function relates to abilities to differentiate among conflicting thoughts, determine good and bad, better and best, same and different, future consequences of current activities, working toward a defined goal, prediction of outcomes, expectation based on actions, and social "control" (the ability to suppress urges that, if not suppressed, could lead to socially unacceptable outcomes).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefrontal_cortex

[Rocker Ute]

Hmmm...what's my excuse then?

Slow developer.


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[Rocker Ute]

The human prefrontal cortex doesn’t fully develop until about age 25. We all are especially prone to idiotic behavior until then.



https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051

It’s an important part of our gray matter:



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefrontal_cortex

Having a kid that age and my church calling has me spending a lot of time with kids that age. While I wouldn't send my son out in the wild wearing a MAGA hat, I can see him react almost exactly like that kid did. Basically not knowing what to do and probably not realizing that getting out of the way, or walking away was an option.

Crowds of teenagers also just do a lot of silly and sometimes inappropriate things, mostly in the name of getting a laugh and impressing friends or awkward attempts to get girls to notice them or whatever.

So it is weird that former educator doesn't seem to get that.

One other thing about the MAGA hats... It has become a symbol and a rallying cry for racist ideas but it doesn't mean that for everyone... yet. Keep in mind these are kids in Kentucky as well. And speaking of not having a completely developed brain, these kids political views are probably mirroring largely their parents. So to believe it was some concerted effort to spark racial disharmony is likely very overstated.

In the other direction - when Trump was elected and some students staged walk-outs, it happened at my son's school. After it happened I asked if he walked out or stayed in class. He had walked out. I asked him why and he basically said, "Well you don't like Trump and all my friends were doing it."

So we had a chat about things, but it was eye opening how some mostly fleeting comments about Trump had been picked up by him and internalized as fact along with the power of peer pressure.

Anyway, I'm all over the place, my main point is that my experience is to give youth in general a bit of a pass on these sort of things, or at least far more than the adults for the developmental issues you noted.


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[mUUser]

This local commentary about the Lincoln Memorial incident is pretty stupid, imo.

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2019/01/25/commentary-teacher-ive/

You'd think an educator would get how youth work a little better than she apparently does.


Frankly, I thought the Sandmann kid had remarkable composure both during the event and during his TV interview.

As for the "smirking", has anyone seen this kid's Today interview? Those that have raised teens understand that while teens like their independence and individuality, they're generally only comfortable with it to within one or two standard deviations from their peers norm. Anyway, from the Today interview you get a good look at the boy's teeth, and they're totally jacked up -- much worse than most his age. I don't know this is the reason he didn't show his teeth, but, I've known teens with better teeth teach themselves to smile without showing their pearlies to the world.

[Rocker Ute]

Frankly, I thought the Sandmann kid had remarkable composure both during the event and during his TV interview.

As for the "smirking", has anyone seen this kid's Today interview? Those that have raised teens understand that while teens like their independence and individuality, they're generally only comfortable with it to within one or two standard deviations from their peers norm. Anyway, from the Today interview you get a good look at the boy's teeth, and they're totally jacked up -- much worse than most his age. I don't know this is the reason he didn't show his teeth, but, I've known teens with better teeth teach themselves to smile without showing their pearlies to the world.

That's my daughter, she has a tooth that is almost imperceptibly a little crooked (still too young for braces) and the second it came in that way she stopped showing her teeth in her smile. Makes me sad because she has such a beautiful smile.


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[Rocker Ute]

Frankly, I thought the Sandmann kid had remarkable composure both during the event and during his TV interview.

As for the "smirking", has anyone seen this kid's Today interview? Those that have raised teens understand that while teens like their independence and individuality, they're generally only comfortable with it to within one or two standard deviations from their peers norm. Anyway, from the Today interview you get a good look at the boy's teeth, and they're totally jacked up -- much worse than most his age. I don't know this is the reason he didn't show his teeth, but, I've known teens with better teeth teach themselves to smile without showing their pearlies to the world.

One other thing, as you note he is a kid. Even if what he did was actually smirking and taunting he deserves to be corrected, not drawn and quartered. To hear he has been getting death threats is pretty disturbing.

People are saying this incident is a microcosm of our society today, I would say our reaction to it is much more reflective. (And I will admit that when I first saw the picture and video out of context I was bothered by it - against the kids).


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[LA Ute]

From a liberal writer:

This Is How the Left Destroys Itself

It’s ridiculous to claim that the Covington Catholic schoolboys are a symbol of what ails America.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/01/covington-pile-on-symbolism/580918/?utm_content=edit-promo&utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_source=facebook&utm_term=2019-01-23T15%3A47%3A59&utm_medium=social

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

White supremacy finds its way to the Hill.

https://attheu.utah.edu/university-statements/condemning-racism-2/


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[Diehard Ute]

White supremacy finds its way to the Hill.

https://attheu.utah.edu/university-statements/condemning-racism-2/


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Not the first time. This happens at campuses around the state a couple of times a year.


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[LA Ute]

White supremacy finds its way to the Hill.

https://attheu.utah.edu/university-statements/condemning-racism-2/


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As I’ve heard said, “The great thing about free speech is that it makes to spotting the idiots easier.”

If these particular idiots had any real following, they wouldn’t have to post banners in secret and run away from them.

[LA Ute]

Ocasio-Cortez could face a primary challenge in 2020 as frustrated Democrats begin to whisper about torpedoing firebrand who is working to replace them with progressives
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6644919/Ocasio-Cortez-face-primary-challenge-2020-frustrated-Dems-begin-whisper-campaign.html

[LA Ute]

Gotta get to the high priority items first.

Dems to strike 'so help you God' from oath taken in front of key House committee, draft shows

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dems-move-to-strike-so-help-me-god-from-oath-taken-in-front-of-key-house-committee

[LA Ute]

Aren’t my Democratic friends here just a little alarmed at the party’s leftward movement? Is there still anything like the Democratic Leadership Council that helped elect Bill Clinton?


On Monday, in a townhall organized by CNN, Kamala Harris endorsed a Medicare-for-All plan that would “eliminate”—her word—private insurance. According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, employer-provided health insurance covers “approximately 152 million nonelderly people in total.” A poll last year by America’s Health Insurance Plan (AHIP) found that 71 percent of Americans were satisfied with their employer’s plan. Most Americans have health insurance, and most Americans are pretty happy with their insurance. Too bad: Kamala Harris says it’s time to “move on.”

Harris’s rival, Elizabeth Warren, has endorsed a tax of 2 percent on assets above $50 million and 3 percent on assets above $1 billion. Now, Warren would like to raise taxes on incomes, capital gains, dividends, and corporations, too. That’s just for starters. A wealth tax of the sort she has proposed—a government claw-back of property in order to make real a subjective standard of equality—would be unique in American history. It might even be unconstitutional. But hey, why worry about that when you can indulge in some light court packing?

The brightest star in the Democratic Party is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, aka AOC. The other week, in conversation with Ta-Nehisi Coates, AOC said, “I do think that a system that allows billionaires to exist when there are parts of Alabama where people are still getting ringworm because they don’t have access to public health is wrong.” Don’t worry, “It’s not to say someone like Bill Gates or Warren Buffet are immoral people.” AOC’s complaint is with the “system” that “allows” Gates and Buffet—and Schultz and Bezos and George Lucas and Mark Zuckerberg and the rest—”to exist.” Presumably, then, Gates and Buffet are safe, existentially speaking. But the “system” of relatively free enterprise that allowed them to grow rich—and finance or innovate remarkable advances in technology and productivity that have benefited the world—should be altered drastically. Hence AOC’s call for a 70-percent marginal tax rate—backed by the same genius from Berkeley who designed Warren’s expropriation of wealth—to help pay for the “Green New Deal” that will give us “a 100% greenhouse gas neutral power generation system, decarbonizing industry and agriculture and more.” Currently, 17 percent of American energy is renewable. The scale of coercion required for such a transformation would brighten any Jacobin’s day. Don’t think too hard about the details of the proposal, though. AOC says there isn’t time to worry about cost, implementation, and unanticipated consequences. “The world is going to end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change,” she told Coates. Nice while it lasted, I suppose.

AOC also has a message for Schultz, who has been the recipient of sustained, ferocious, and panicked attacks from members of his former party outraged that a moderate billionaire might spoil their plans for replacing Trump with an unreconstructed left-winger. “Why don’t people ever tell billionaires who want to run for president that they need to ‘work their way up’ or that ‘maybe they should start with city council first’? ” she Tweeted. Well, plenty of people do tell them that—I seem to recall a lack of government experience being an issue in the most recent presidential election—but if anyone has “worked his way up,” from the poorhouse to being the first in his family to graduate from college to turning a coffee shop at the Pike Place market into the global behemoth that is Starbucks, it’s Howard Schultz. I’d even go as far to say that Schultz’s company has done more for its low-wage workers than the corniest socialist dreams of AOC.

Let’s see … what else happened in the busy world of crazy … excuse me while I flip through my files … Ah yes, there was congresswoman Ilhan Omar, parroting the Kremlin-Havana-Tehran line on the democratic uprising in Venezuela, calling it “a U.S. backed coup.” A few days later, Omar, a supporter of the anti-Semitic Boycott Divestment Sanctions movement whom the Democrats have awarded with a place on the House Foreign Relations Committee, said she “almost chuckles” because “we still uphold” the Jewish State of Israel “as a democracy in the Middle East.” I chuckle—and begin seriously to worry—that someone who cannot distinguish between tyranny in Latin America and democracy in the Middle East commands such acclaim and receives such attention. Omar has former Obama adviser Valerie Jarrett in her corner. When Omar dismissed Congressman Lee Zeldin’s criticism of her views by Tweeting, “Don’t mind him, he is just waking up to the reality of having Muslim women as colleagues who know how to stand up to bullies!”, Jarrett replied, “Shake him up!” Zeldin is a Jewish Republican.

https://freebeacon.com/columns/the-democrats-lose-their-minds/

[concerned]

Aren’t my Democratic friends here just a little alarmed at the party’s leftward movement? Is there still anything like the Democratic Leadership Council that helped elect Bill Clinton?



https://freebeacon.com/columns/the-democrats-lose-their-minds/

You want a Democratic equivalent of the effective Republican organization that got Marco elected and blocked DJT?

[Ma'ake]

Aren’t my Democratic friends here just a little alarmed at the party’s leftward movement? Is there still anything like the Democratic Leadership Council that helped elect Bill Clinton?



This could be the classic strategy taking of a strong position for the purposes of the primary, and then back off and say there is room for differences of opinion and defer to a select panel of a variety of experts during the general election, and if elected, to govern. Many people see flexibility in thinking to be a virtue.

Obama "evolved" on gay marriage. Lincoln came around to declaring slavery as the reason for the civil war. Trump is ready to declare a national emergency to keep a campaign promise of creating a wall. Which approach shows real leadership?

Native Utahn and noted strategic thinker Clayton Christensen, a Harvard Business professor and expert on disruptive technologies, had an unusual take on the state of healthcare reform in America. He said Obamacare was a good start, but it didn't go nearly far enough, and it would require autocratic leadership in healthcare to break entrenched high cost models and thinking.

Even though they vigorously opposed Obamacare, many Republicans shy away from healthcare as an issue because the provisions of Obamacare are very popular and widely seen as sacrosanct, such as covering pre-existing conditions.

So, Harris could/should back off later into a position of expanding Medicaid to strive toward 100% coverage, while continuing to put cost pressure on private insurers.

Eventually (10+ years) we could settle into a two-tier model like many countries have adopted, where there's a base level of coverage for everyone (complete with waiting lists for non-emergent procedures) and supplemental private insurance for those who don't want to wait. For example, in France it's sort of assumed that supplementary coverage is a necessity. Many Canadians have supplementary insurance.

Going back to Christensen's hunch that disruptive leadership will be needed in healthcare, I think there's still room for the private sector to innovate disruptive delivery and insurance models, in the same way Amazon has disrupted the retail sector. This would survive expansion of Medicaid / Medicare.

One persistent gripe among providers is Medicare doesn't reimburse enough. CMS did a study of providers in areas where a high percentage of patients were on Medicare, and found many practices found ways to economize and still make a profit with high loads of Medicare patients. Tough choices at a micro level led to economical healthy provider organizations on much lower levels of reimbursement.

Big Pharma is under attack on multiple fronts. Intermountain is leading a group of hospitals that will start a generics pharmaceutical company, as many Big Pharma companies abandon generics as not being profitable enough.

Harris' position right now will motivate a lot of people to the polls on both sides, but the way forward will probably be much more "grey".

[UTEopia]

Aren’t my Democratic friends here just a little alarmed at the party’s leftward movement? Is there still anything like the Democratic Leadership Council that helped elect Bill Clinton?

https://freebeacon.com/columns/the-democrats-lose-their-minds/

I don't think there is room in either party as they are constituted for people in the middle. The primary system requires candidates to appeal to most extreme elements of their party. A significant problem for the Dems is that they allow the opposition to define the discussion. For example, the real issue on abortion is not abortion, it is choice, yet the pro-life groups have focused the discussion on abortion and not on choice. The recent legislation passed in NY does, I believe, allow late term abortions for women whose health is in jeopardy. I don't think it extends beyond that. However, the pro-life groups have made it sound like any woman can choose an abortion up through the actual delivery. For me, this is a difficult issue. I am not pro-abortion however, I am pro-choice. I would like to see limits on timing for all abortions except those where the health of the mother is in jeopardy. Hell, even my Church allows for abortion in cases of rape, incest and health of the mother and, we had very close friends who found during the pregnancy that the fetus was not viable because of genetic defect. He was a Bishop at the time and spoke with Stake President and General Authority and was told that the decision was between them and God.

[LA Ute]

I don't think there is room in either party as they are constituted for people in the middle. The primary system requires candidates to appeal to most extreme elements of their party. A significant problem for the Dems is that they allow the opposition to define the discussion. For example, the real issue on abortion is not abortion, it is choice, yet the pro-life groups have focused the discussion on abortion and not on choice. The recent legislation passed in NY does, I believe, allow late term abortions for women whose health is in jeopardy. I don't think it extends beyond that. However, the pro-life groups have made it sound like any woman can choose an abortion up through the actual delivery. For me, this is a difficult issue. I am not pro-abortion however, I am pro-choice. I would like to see limits on timing for all abortions except those where the health of the mother is in jeopardy. Hell, even my Church allows for abortion in cases of rape, incest and health of the mother and, we had very close friends who found during the pregnancy that the fetus was not viable because of genetic defect. He was a Bishop at the time and spoke with Stake President and General Authority and was told that the decision was between them and God.

I think convenience abortion is the issue that upsets most anti-abortion people, including me. I agree that the LDS position is moderate and I like it (rape, incest, life of mother, fetus not viable even at full-term). It would be hard to write legislation enforcing that approach (and it would be unconstitutional in pre-viability cases).

OTOH, late-term and partial-birth are barbaric practices in the overwhelming majority of cases. What Gov. Northam said about it, if I understood him correctly, actually makes me feel ill.

[LA Ute]

I don't think there is room in either party as they are constituted for people in the middle. The primary system requires candidates to appeal to most extreme elements of their party. A significant problem for the Dems is that they allow the opposition to define the discussion. For example, the real issue on abortion is not abortion, it is choice, yet the pro-life groups have focused the discussion on abortion and not on choice. The recent legislation passed in NY does, I believe, allow late term abortions for women whose health is in jeopardy. I don't think it extends beyond that. However, the pro-life groups have made it sound like any woman can choose an abortion up through the actual delivery. For me, this is a difficult issue. I am not pro-abortion however, I am pro-choice. I would like to see limits on timing for all abortions except those where the health of the mother is in jeopardy. Hell, even my Church allows for abortion in cases of rape, incest and health of the mother and, we had very close friends who found during the pregnancy that the fetus was not viable because of genetic defect. He was a Bishop at the time and spoke with Stake President and General Authority and was told that the decision was between them and God.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think Clayton Christensen advocates a more government-controlled healthcare program like single-payer or Medicare for all. I don’t have his book with me, but I’ll check.

[sancho]

I could be wrong, but I don’t think Clayton Christensen advocates a more government-controlled healthcare program like single-payer or Medicare for all. I don’t have his book with me, but I’ll check.

I used to see that guy at church every once in a while because his son was at Duke. Nice guy. He always gave intelligent, articulate comments in Sunday School. I'll always remember the time some guy asked why investing was any different from gambling, and Christensen uncharacteristically gave a rambling, incoherent answer that went on for minutes. It was nice to see him as a mortal for once instead of as a genius.

[LuckyUte]

Aren’t my Democratic friends here just a little alarmed at the party’s leftward movement? Is there still anything like the Democratic Leadership Council that helped elect Bill Clinton?

Nothing about what the current candidates are talking about alarm me in the least. Why would Democrats be alarmed by Democratic ideas? It is about time Democrats talk about Democratic things. Republicans for the last 30 years have been "on-message" the whole time and it has worked for them. Democrats need to be "on-message" all the time and pound away about the expensive and inefficient health care system, about the inhuman practices of ICE, about Citizens United and the unchecked power of money in our election system, about gerrymandering and how it subverts our republic. I could go on and on, but you get the point. I am not "alarmed" at all that these things are being raised and discussed.

Oh, and BTW, the same question could be reversed... "Aren't any of my Republican friends alarmed that it seems that there is no such thing anymore as a Rockefeller Republican. I seems most are in hiding ceding the party to the far right?

[LA Ute]

Oh, and BTW, the same question could be reversed... "Aren't any of my Republican friends alarmed that it seems that there is no such thing anymore as a Rockefeller Republican. I seems most are in hiding ceding the party to the far right?

Sure. But I don’t want to change the subject just yet! 😉

And if you think the positions the leading Democrats are currently taking reflect mainstream Democratic ideas, that’s fine. We just disagree. Howard Schultz seems to disagree too. Otherwise he wouldn’t be thinking of running.

[LA Ute]

My current fantasy is that Trump declares victory and announces he won’t run in 2020. Then a real Republican could run against whatever Democrat emerges from the scrum.

[sancho]

My current fantasy is that Trump declares victory and announces he won’t run in 2020. Then a real Republican could run against whatever Democrat emerges from the scrum.

What is a real republican now? Almost all of the party followed trump into the mud. I'm not sure the rest of the party would back a never trumper.

[Rocker Ute]

What is a real republican now? Almost all of the party followed trump into the mud. I'm not sure the rest of the party would back a never trumper.

Most of those guys are opportunists and they will back whomever helps them gain and/or retain power. I would bet dollars to donuts that if you could talk to over 90% of republican congresspeople in private and confidentially they would tell you they don't believe in Trump, but he is their ticket to power now.

There is no loyalty among thieves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

This is a thoughtful piece that fits here best, I think.

The Trumpification of the pro-life movement exacts a price

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-trumpification-of-the-pro-life-movement-exacts-a-price/2019/01/21/85730ae0-1db9-11e9-9145-3f74070bbdb9_story.html?utm_term=.48357f141da1

[sancho]

about Citizens United and the unchecked power of money in our election system, about gerrymandering and how it subverts our republic.

I thought it was interesting to see these two issues right next to each other. On the one hand, you want to give government more control over elections, and on the other you see what government does when it has control over elections.

I don't love that you have to be wealthy to be in politics. But I don't really want incumbents to have power to regulate campaign advertising either. I don't know what to think.

[LA Ute]

What is a real republican now? Almost all of the party followed trump into the mud.

That generalization is far too sweeping for me to respond to it thoughtfully!

[sancho]

That generalization is far too sweeping for me to respond to it thoughtfully!

Okay, then in your daydream, when Trump decides not to run for re-election, who is the GOP candidate you want to run?

I know Rocker is right - the GOP will ditch him as fast as they can when he's gone. But they are tainted. Everyone voted for the Iraq war because it was politically expedient, but it came back to bite many of them (like Hillary) later on. Won't the same thing happen with all these Trump followers? At some point, they will be held accountable for selling out their principles, right?

[LA Ute]

Okay, then in your daydream, when Trump decides not to run for re-election, who is the GOP candidate you want to run?

I know Rocker is right - the GOP will ditch him as fast as they can when he's gone. But they are tainted. Everyone voted for the Iraq war because it was politically expedient, but it came back to bite many of them (like Hillary) later on. Won't the same thing happen with all these Trump followers? At some point, they will be held accountable for selling out their principles, right?

I don't think the taint will stick to any but the most devoted "followers," as you call them. (I did catch the slam.) Those are quite few in number among the high-profile people. Mike Pence probably has no future, for example. But Nikki Haley has a bright future. So do many others who held their noses and worked with Trump out of necessity and reality (he got elected and they could not pretend otherwise). Marco Rubio comes to mind. Maybe Ben Sasse. Who know? Romney might run. I think he's too old but with Bernie and Joe and Hillary among the credible Dem candidates, that's a tough case to make.

[Ma'ake]

I don't think the taint will stick to any but the most devoted "followers," as you call them. (I did catch the slam.) Those are quite few in number among the high-profile people. Mike Pence probably has no future, for example. But Nikki Haley has a bright future. So do many others who held their noses and worked with Trump out of necessity and reality (he got elected and they could not pretend otherwise). Marco Rubio comes to mind. Maybe Ben Sasse. Who know? Romney might run. I think he's too old but with Bernie and Joe and Hillary among the credible Dem candidates, that's a tough case to make.

I generally agree with your points & the folks who will be unscathed, but in some key demographic groups a harsher view will prevail: minorities, millennials and women. Democrats are fully capable of screwing up an anti-Trump backlash, but I think most Republicans have no idea the headwinds they're creating by playing the Faustian Deal game. The big question is how many Republicans will peel away from Trump as it looks like he'll be a liability in 2020. Even McConnell is speaking up on foreign policy and being opposed to a State of Emergency declaration. (He also admitted the serious uphill road the GOP faces with minorities and women.)

[Rocker Ute]

This is purely anecdotal but if my facebook feed is any indicator of how society in general feels by the relentless memes people post...

(And I post this simply because for the past few years I've heard many people -myself included- write with absolute certainty that there was no chance Trump could win or keep winning - with lots of data to back that up. I also heard with the same conviction about the certain death of the GOP and also now the death of the GOP among anybody but only the worst kinds of sexist, racist pigs.)

But, surprisingly WOMEN I know are posting conservative memes at a rapid pace. Most of these women are white and middle class, but that have been surprising how vocal. For liberal memes, that is primarily being posted by millennial-aged over-privileged white men who spend their days playing video games and arguing with each other online.

Certainly my circle of friends and relatives is not at all representative of people in our country, but I have found that observation a little surprising and very backwards from what I would have assumed.

Now among my circle of people I associate with in person, most women seemed pretty repulsed by Donald Trump, even among those who also had major distaste for HRC. Most men I know in person remain largely silent about it all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sancho]

This is purely anecdotal but if my facebook feed is any indicator of how society in general feels by the relentless memes people post...

(And I post this simply because for the past few years I've heard many people -myself included- write with absolute certainty that there was no chance Trump could win or keep winning - with lots of data to back that up. I also heard with the same conviction about the certain death of the GOP and also now the death of the GOP among anybody but only the worst kinds of sexist, racist pigs.)

But, surprisingly WOMEN I know are posting conservative memes at a rapid pace. Most of these women are white and middle class, but that have been surprising how vocal. For liberal memes, that is primarily being posted by millennial-aged over-privileged white men who spend their days playing video games and arguing with each other online.


I believe you. There was an Atlantic article on abortion yesterday with a title that said something about democrats overplaying their hand. I think that's true on many issues. Certain aspects of the democrat platform resonate with most people, but they are unwilling to say/do anything against the extreme viewpoints that seem clearly wrong to most people. Abortion, race, insane SJW tweets, etc. Some of it is so over the top that it taints the entire party.

If conservatives are unfairly judged to be bigots based on their extreme fringe members, then liberals are probably unfairly judged to be idiots based on their extreme fringe members. Very few members of either party ever take a stand against the wrong ideas at the extremes.

I feel like a very different kind of voter in that I care about the person more than the platform. It frustrates me that people are willing to support someone like President Trump just because he will push a certain agenda. I feel like that attitude will cost us all in the long term.

So...yeah. I think democrats could blow this thing. George Will had a recent headline (behind a paywall, so I didn't read it) about how only democrats can cost themselves the 2020 election.

[Irving Washington]

That generalization is far too sweeping for me to respond to it thoughtfully!
Who would you have voted for if California was up for grabs in 2016? If Trump, would that have made you a Trump follower?

[LA Ute]

I generally agree with your points & the folks who will be unscathed, but in some key demographic groups a harsher view will prevail: minorities, millennials and women. Democrats are fully capable of screwing up an anti-Trump backlash, but I think most Republicans have no idea the headwinds they're creating by playing the Faustian Deal game. The big question is how many Republicans will peel away from Trump as it looks like he'll be a liability in 2020. Even McConnell is speaking up on foreign policy and being opposed to a State of Emergency declaration. (He also admitted the serious uphill road the GOP faces with minorities and women.)

I agree, except I will note that those who see any Republican's actions regarding Trump as a Faustian bargain will never vote for a Republican anyway -- with the exception of the most ardent never-Trumpers. J.D. Williams used to teach that candidates must look at the electorate as Saints (those who are your voters no matter what), Saveables (those whom you might convince to vote for you), and Sinners (those who will never vote for you, no matter what). You spend your time and resources on keeping the Saints in the flock and persuading the Saveables to vote for you.

For Republicans, the Sinners now are those who buy into the idea that Trump is so evil that any person's association with anything emanating from Trump's administration is a Faustian bargain that makes that person complicit in evil. I'll bet that this group of voters are the ones who bought the idea that "Bush lied, people died," called GWB "Bushitler," see the movies "Fair Game" and "Vice" as true history, and so forth. In other words, they ain't voting for no Repub, never! So going along with Trump on many issues is not going to cost Republicans those votes. They weren't getting those votes anyway.

[LA Ute]

Who would you have voted for if California was up for grabs in 2016? If Trump, would that have made you a Trump follower?

It would have made me a nauseated realist.

[sancho]

For Republicans, the Sinners now are those who buy into the idea that Trump is so evil that any person's association with anything emanating from Trump's administration makes that person complicit in evil. I'll bet that this group of voters are the ones who bought the idea that "Bush lied, people died," called GWB "Bushitler," see the movies "Fair Game" and "Vice" expressions of true history, and so forth. In other words, they ain't voting for no Repub, never!

I think following Trump makes a person complicit in the damage he is doing, but nothing else in your description applies to me. I think that's true of most never Trumpers.

I just don't understand how the Trump trade off makes sense to people.

[sancho]

It would have made me a nauseated realist.

an unhappy follower?

[Rocker Ute]

Another thing to consider regarding the taint of Trump is the reality of how people get elected and why a group as a whole does not necessarily reflect the will of the people with its parts and Utah is a stark example of this.

Ask just about anyone in Utah and they'll agree that the super-majority we have here is not particularly healthy and that frequently the state legislature acts in a way that they aren't pleased with or is more extreme than their personal views. If you don't believe that see how we voted on medical marijuana and expanded Medicaid, and how most people feel about local liquor laws. Yet when it comes down to who our citizens have to vote for individually they'll continue to vote for the conservative neighbor they know, versus the democrat candidate, keeping that issue rolling.

The same happens on a national scale. Poll the people of Utah or any state on whether they are happy with what congress is doing and the disapproval is dramatic - they are routinely hated. Poll the constituents on their individual congresspeople and you'll typically get a favorable approval rating.

So while the state of Utah is down on Trump and upset with congress, they'll continue to support Mike and Mitt, Stewart, Bishop, Curtis and McAdams. Mike Lee and Chris Stewart have been pretty repugnant when it comes to how they've aligned with Trump in my opinion - yet they will be unscathed even if Trump turns out to be the dark lord himself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

an unhappy follower?

Do you think voting for a candidate makes the voter a follower of the candidate? If so, what does "follower" mean to you?

[sancho]

The same happens on a national scale. Poll the people of Utah or any state on whether they are happy with what congress is doing and the disapproval is dramatic - they are routinely hated. Poll the constituents on their individual congresspeople and you'll typically get a favorable approval rating.


Yes, no taint is powerful enough to overcome belonging to a political party. Most folks belong to a party for life, and nothing will convince them to change. For a while, I hoped Utahns' religious principles would be strong enough to overcome their political principles, but I was wrong. It was a disappointing realization.

[sancho]

Do you think voting for a candidate makes the voter a follower of the candidate? If so, what does "follower" mean to you?

I guess I was just defining it in that way, yes. I think that you maybe interpreted it to mean more, like a disciple or something. That's why you read something sinister into the word when I used it yesterday even though I didn't intend what you thought I did.

Look, I have been politically apathetic most of my life. I care about issues, but I can see both sides on most issues. I can't really see both sides on Trump. I can only see people who would vote for anything or anyone as long as it's not something or someone from the opposite political party.

[LA Ute]

I guess I was just defining it in that way, yes. I think that you maybe interpreted it to mean more, like a disciple or something. That's why you read something sinister into the word when I used it yesterday even though I didn't intend what you thought I did.

Look, I have been politically apathetic most of my life. I care about issues, but I can see both sides on most issues. I can't really see both sides on Trump. I can only see people who would vote for anything or anyone as long as it's not something or someone from the opposite political party.

Many people vote ideologically. I vote for the most conservative candidate who can win. In CA we have no Republicans on the ballot anymore, so I vote for the most conservative Democrat. Same with City Counsel elections.

[Rocker Ute]

Many people vote ideologically. I vote for the most conservative candidate who can win. In CA we have no Republicans on the ballot anymore, so I vote for the most conservative Democrat. Same with City Counsel elections.

I remember when I was getting voting age my dad advised me to vote for the candidates whose principles most closely aligned with mine, and that policy was secondary. In other words, vote for people who are good first, then pick their policies second, because good people will typically do the right things regardless of position. I thought that was pretty sage advice.

The problem with this though, and maybe this just shows how jaded I am, but it is increasingly difficult to find politicians who are actually good people. Rotten politicians in the Republican party here in Utah (and some personal interactions) are what drove me from the party. But since then there really isn't a party that lines up very well with my own principles. I think that is actually true for most Americans.

[LA Ute]

I remember when I was getting voting age my dad advised me to vote for the candidates whose principles most closely aligned with mine, and that policy was secondary. In other words, vote for people who are good first, then pick their policies second, because good people will typically do the right things regardless of position. I thought that was pretty sage advice.

The problem with this though, and maybe this just shows how jaded I am, but it is increasingly difficult to find politicians who are actually good people. Rotten politicians in the Republican party here in Utah (and some personal interactions) are what drove me from the party. But since then there really isn't a party that lines up very well with my own principles. I think that is actually true for most Americans.

I agree. I just try to find the best person who is closest to what I think are good principles. I think it is important to vote. It is conceivable that someday the choices are so bad that I will not vote for anyone, for any office, but we're a long way away from a situation that bad. I won't vote for Trump in 2020, or ever.

[mUUser]

Many people vote ideologically. I vote for the most conservative candidate who can win. In CA we have no Republicans on the ballot anymore, so I vote for the most conservative Democrat. Same with City Counsel elections.


This is correct. A person's character is not irrelevant, however, which is why I couldn't cast a vote for either Trump or Clinton. I don't see much of an improvement in the 2020 field as of now. Trump, as well as Harris, Booker, Biden, Warren, Sanders are simply non-starters....they aren't getting my vote. Period. Keeping an eye on Schultz, Bloomberg & Kasich. Maybe we can convince Joe Lieberman or Joe Manchin to enter the race as well. Maybe Manchin could enter as a democrat and solve all problems.

[sancho]

Trump, as well as Harris, Booker, Biden, Warren, Sanders are simply non-starters....they aren't getting my vote. Period.

Trump for character reasons, and all the others for ideological reasons? Certainly none of the democrats have character issues on the scale of Trump (at least that we are aware of), right?

[LA Ute]

Trump for character reasons, and all the others for ideological reasons? Certainly none of the democrats have character issues on the scale of Trump (at least that we are aware of), right?

Trump’s behavior is so far below any acceptable standard that we’d better not start using him for one.

[sancho]

Trump’s behavior is so far below any acceptable standard that we’d better not start using him for one.

Sure, but that's the choice ahead of us. Trump's lack of quality/ability/dignity compared to whatever you think about ________'s platform.

Plus, by electing him, we lowered the bar on acceptable standards. I'm not sure we can easily reset the bar.

[Rocker Ute]

Sure, but that's the choice ahead of us. Trump's lack of quality/ability/dignity compared to whatever you think about ________'s platform.

Plus, by electing him, we lowered the bar on acceptable standards. I'm not sure we can easily reset the bar.

Trump may be the only person ever, who after 4 years on the job will still remain uniquely unqualified for it, and this goes beyond his character flaws. Of course, what do you expect from a guy who refuses to read or listen to any of his experts and advisors.

[Ma'ake]

I could be wrong, but I don’t think Clayton Christensen advocates a more government-controlled healthcare program like single-payer or Medicare for all. I don’t have his book with me, but I’ll check.

I remember his quote being that the ACA was a good start, but didn't go far enough, and "autocratic leadership" was needed to break resistant high cost structures.

Being familiar with Christensen's work & background, I didn't interpret that to mean we should move to single payer, but rather he was echoing many who thought the ACA was too narrowly focused on insurance coverage, and didn't address other systemic issues. My assumption was he was referring to fairly radical private moves on the provider side, like what Intermountain is doing in Utah, or what Amazon is looking at, Walmart, etc.

If we ever get back to seriously discussing policy as a nation, what are the credible conservative ideas on how to improve healthcare, while keeping coverage of pre-existing conditions, etc? My impression is Republicans are thankful to not have to talk about healthcare.

[LA Ute]

I remember his quote being that the ACA was a good start, but didn't go far enough, and "autocratic leadership" was needed to break resistant high cost structures.

Being familiar with Christensen's work & background, I didn't interpret that to mean we should move to single payer, but rather he was echoing many who thought the ACA was too narrowly focused on insurance coverage, and didn't address other systemic issues. My assumption was he was referring to fairly radical private moves on the provider side, like what Intermountain is doing in Utah, or what Amazon is looking at, Walmart, etc.

If we ever get back to seriously discussing policy as a nation, what are the credible conservative ideas on how to improve healthcare, while keeping coverage of pre-existing conditions, etc? My impression is Republicans are thankful to not have to talk about healthcare.

Here’s a set of ideas from the Heritage Foundation. >10 years old but typical:

https://www.heritage.org/health-care-reform/commentary/bipartisan-push-healthcare

One more:

https://www.heritage.org/health-care-reform/commentary/the-path-forward-health-reform-conservatives

I don’t think ideology-based solutions will work in the USA.

[Rocker Ute]

Best healthcare plan I ever had got nixed by Obamacare. High deductible plan coupled with an HSA. $10k deductible by low ultilizers like us were able to sock away a ton of cash that rolled over.

Now I have a $13.5k deductible, no HSA, and costs about 3x what I used to pay. Good news though, preventive care visits once a year are "free" and if we decide to have kids again, a medical wonder, that'll also be covered.

I'll take my $7000 a year back thank you.

All complaining aside, that sort of plan really was a good way to reduce healthcare costs. We had incentive to ask for alternative treatments, generic prescriptions and be overall healthier and better utilizers. The payoff was the money we saved in an HSA could earn interest and be applied to our retirement.

I've been critical of Obamacare in the sense that it did little to improve healthcare utilization nor reward healthy living. I think that is a core component to any legit healthcare reform, and a key way to do that in my estimation is to have people feel the real cost of care, something most of us are shielded from.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

The Healthy Americans Act. This is a the best idea that got nowhere. It was a truly bipartisan bill. Bob Bennett told me that the Obama White House came to him and Wyden and wanted to support their bill, but for political reasons the “public option” insurance concept must be added. Bennett refused because he knew he’d lose all his GOP co-sponsors if he added a government health insurance entity that would compete with private companies. Eventually the pubic option was removed from the bill that became Obamacare. Oh well, that’s how history sometimes takes weird turns.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthy_Americans_Act

[Ma'ake]

Working at a place where I see so, so many people who are suffering, some because of poor life style choices or a lack of knowledge of their own genetics that might have motivated them to head off what they're struggling with now... I've become much more of a health fanatic than I ever imagined I would be.

And I'm fortunate to be exposed to some of the latest research on diet, exercise, and other health practices, with MDs and PhDs in the field as colleagues who are similarly motivated to avoid problems that can be navigated around. Many colleagues are from nations where treatments or prevention have been followed for thousands of years. Example: the spices Indians have in their daily lives are thought to be a major reason India has low rates of Alzheimers.

Easily, 25% of US healthcare costs could be shaved off by better lifestyle choices. Sodas are 21st century cigarettes, many people eat horrible food, we largely ignore wisdom from the East that can make a big difference. Much of the poor lifestyle choices are a result of economic inequality.
McDonalds, KFC, Taco Bell, pizza are toxic "comfort foods".

People in many poorer countries lead happier, healthier lives even though they don't have access to high quality healthcare, in large part because they have "hope", they're not driven to medicate themselves with crappy diets or poisons, stress that originates with striving to keep up with the Joneses or dealing with a job that treats them like they're expendable.

One guy at our work is a solid, blue collar employee who never calls in sick, has been with us for a couple of years. He used to work at a potato chip factory across town where the policy was no vacations between Memorial Day & Labor Day. "But that's the time of year our kids aren't in school". Answer: "If you don't like it, get another job". He finally did, "hit the jackpot" and is doing menial work tasks for us. He's a great guy, but is a good example of how the genetic / upbringing lottery is largely cruel. He knows that MRI, CT scans, PET and other types of Radiology are "cameras looking into your body" but otherwise, investing in lots of education in him is not going to result in somebody producing keen insights. This doesn't mean he's "expendable".

We plateaued on increasing life expectancies and have gone down a couple of years in a row due in large part from opioids, which are an escape. The fast food places have experimented with healthier menus, but people crave the comfort food that helps relieve their stress from the day, the same food that sends them to hospitals years or decades later for expensive and often futile treatments.

In healthcare we often see the end product of a culmination of low scores on the genetic lottery, raised in dysfunctional homes & neighborhoods, crappy & turbulent jobs, and lots of self medicating through bad diet, escaping the day on the couch, smoking, drinking, drugs, etc.

Taking a holistic view of what constitutes good health, we're going to have very expensive healthcare for the foreseeable future.

[LA Ute]

Ma'ake, as I read Christensen's book I see him advocating for systemic change in health care business models, not really talking about Medicare-Medicaid-health insurance reform, etc. Here's a typical statement of his from an interview back in 2010:


"What they are doing to this point in Washington is not even focused on the reform of health care,” states Christensen, who recently penned The Innovator’s Prescription. Care itself has to be truly reformed, he warns, or “America will just go bankrupt" struggling to pay the costs related to it.Many participants at the World Healthcare Congress acknowledged that it was up to the private sector to reform and disrupt -- to reference Christensen’s famous disruptive innovation model of economics -- the industry's approach to care from the bottom up. Companies like Virgin HealthMiles, which incentivizes healthy living with cash and prizes, and Alere, which focuses on connecting people with their caregivers through technology, have already begun stepping up to fill the care gap.

While the potential for true healthcare reform may now lie in the private sector, Christensen and others note that there are still many government-based regulations and pricing practices that will need to be changed for this to happen.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/face-to-face/2010/04/28/what-obamacare-is-missing/#6f6ad46d3326

This is from a fascinating article about Clayton's own experiences with a heart attack, stroke and cancer, all in a three-year period while he was writing The Innovator's Prescription:


His book The Innovator's Prescription (2009) was co-written with two doctors, the late Jerome Grossman, who ran Tufts Medical Center for 16 years, and Jason Hwang, a former student of Christensen's. Hwang contributed enormously to this story.The authors acknowledge that the fee-for-service reimbursement system, in which providers earn more by treating patients more aggressively, impedes the kind of disruptive innovation that would lead to better care at a lower cost. There are several systems we could adopt that would be better, but there isn't a road map to get there. The business models of health are frozen in the hospital and the doctor's office. The path to fixing the system is to disrupt those models. Here are some approaches:

Routinization. A hospital is really three business models under one roof, each of which manages a different type of medical practice. Intuitive medicine is the realm of highly trained specialists handling difficult diagnoses and treatment. Empirical medicine is the costly realm of chronic care and trial-and-error treatment. Precision medicine, the real goal for the system, is a case where diagnosis is known and so is the therapy. Then treatment can be routinized and moved off-site. Disruption will involve pushing more of medicine into the precision category, then automating that care to make it better and cheaper.

Consolidation. The best way to unleash disruption is if more health care providers combine, controlling hospitals, doctors and health insurance. Christensen makes an analogy to RCA in the 1950s. To get people to watch the first color programming on its NBC channel, RCA also had to manufacture color TV sets. A hospital loses money if it tells patients to go to an outside cheaper clinic. But if it owns the health plan and the clinic, disruptive ideas will flourish.

Precision. The kind of targeted therapies now used in cancer treatment, such as the drug Christensen received, will be applied more widely. Diseases will be subtyped more specifically and therapies tailored to work better. This will also save time and money as clinical drug trials become more focused. Specialty clinics will arise to implant devices more cheaply.

Do-it-yourself. Christensen predicts a rise in self-diagnosis and self-care, as tools that used to be stuck in the hospital reach patients and their families.
https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2011/0314/features-clayton-christensen-health-care-cancer-survivor.html#2da414fda4db

I recommend the entire article. Am I the only one here who remembers when Clayton Christensen was an all-state basketball player at West High? I think I was in junior high at the time. Most of you probably weren't even born yet.

[LA Ute]

This is a bit heated but she does make a point:

“Does anyone think that either one of these jokers, Northam or Herring, would be accorded any courtesy by the media if they were Republicans. No. There would be special theme songs on cable and network news, there would be special graphics, there would be people interviewing every person that ever went to school with these blackfacers. They would be parked outside their residences, following relatives around, going through trash, confrontations by angry activists captured on video, think of the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing as a paradigm. Why aren’t we seeing this?”

https://pjmedia.com/blog/liveblogevent/live-blog-182/entry-252696/

[Rocker Ute]

This is a bit heated but she does make a point:

“Does anyone think that either one of these jokers, Northam or Herring, would be accorded any courtesy by the media if they were Republicans. No. There would be special theme songs on cable and network news, there would be special graphics, there would be people interviewing every person that ever went to school with these blackfacers. They would be parked outside their residences, following relatives around, going through trash, confrontations by angry activists captured on video, think of the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing as a paradigm. Why aren’t we seeing this?”

https://pjmedia.com/blog/liveblogevent/live-blog-182/entry-252696/

A factor that I think we are seeing with the media that should be considered and trumps (pun mostly intended) any discussion about 'liberal media bias' is that the media are smart people and also citizens of this nation. Just like all of us, they can see how toxic Trump really is and how important it will be to get him out of office, and so I do think there is an element of standing down a bit when it comes to opponents to Trump (and the party the associate with) and jumping on allies of Trump (and the party they associate with).

I'm not saying that is right, but I think it is reality that goes beyond simply 'bias'. Put yourself in those shoes and I think it is a force that even the most ethical and balanced journalist would wrestle with.

[concerned]

This is a bit heated but she does make a point:

“Does anyone think that either one of these jokers, Northam or Herring, would be accorded any courtesy by the media if they were Republicans. No. There would be special theme songs on cable and network news, there would be special graphics, there would be people interviewing every person that ever went to school with these blackfacers. They would be parked outside their residences, following relatives around, going through trash, confrontations by angry activists captured on video, think of the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing as a paradigm. Why aren’t we seeing this?”

https://pjmedia.com/blog/liveblogevent/live-blog-182/entry-252696/

I have seen a fair amount of stuff--interviews with or quotes from classmates, yearbook editors, etc., especically now that the lt. gov.'s accuser has come forward. Part of the difference in intensity is that these are state officeholders, not a Supreme Court nominee during hearings. Also that Northam admitted it initially, as did the atty general, so there isn't the sleuthing to prove them liars as there was with Roy Moore or Kavenaugh (or Gary Hart or John Edwards or Jeff Bezos). We will see what happens with the Lt. gov. going forward.

[Mormon Red Death]

https://twitter.com/conservmillen/status/1093567747513114625?s=19

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

The Catholic diocese in Kentucky that sponsors the Covington boys’ school hired an investigating agency to review the incident in D.C. Here is the agency’s report.

https://www.covdio.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/CCHFinalInvestigativeReport.pdf

[UTEopia]

The Catholic diocese in Kentucky that sponsors the Covington boys’ school hired an investigating agency to review the incident in D.C. Here is the agency’s report.

https://www.covdio.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/CCHFinalInvestigativeReport.pdf

If I hired an investigator and this is what they came up with, I would be tempted to not pay them.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

If I hired an investigator and this is what they came up with, I would be tempted to not pay them.

Unless it's exactly what you want them to come up with.

[LA Ute]

I don't think you guys are being fair. But the Sandmann kid might sue. I hope he doesn't -- this thing needs to die, but that would enable a full record to be developed.

Here's what that right-wing rag, the Washington post, reported the story.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/diocese-reverses-course-clears-covington-catholic-high-school-students-of-wrongdoing-after-investigation-of-viral-incident-on-mall/2019/02/13/c11195f8-2fa7-11e9-8ad3-9a5b113ecd3c_story.html?utm_term=.2da8e00f8c3a

I think Phillips, the guy who was beating the drum, deserves more skpeticism than the kids. The guy has claimed he served in Vietnam but he never did. Big credibility shot right there.

[LA Ute]

This is the video Sandmann's lawyer put it. He'll show it to the jury if there's a trial. I'm sure that attorneys and publicists for the 54 celebrities, news organizations and pundits who received document preservation letters from Sandmann's attorney will review this video closely. See how fair you think the news media coverage was.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSkpPaiUF8s&feature=youtu.be

I don't expect a trial but there may be written apologies and perhaps some money will change hands. I think they defamed him. Sandmann deserves something. Otherwise, this incident will dog him for his entire life.

[UTEopia]

This is the video Sandmann's lawyer put it. He'll show it to the jury if there's a trial. I'm sure that attorneys and publicists for the 54 celebrities, news organizations and pundits who received document preservation letters from Sandmann's attorney will review this video closely. See how fair you think the news media coverage was.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSkpPaiUF8s&feature=youtu.be


I don't expect a trial but there may be written apologies and perhaps some money will change hands. I think they defamed him. Sandmann deserves something. Otherwise, this incident will dog him for his entire life.

Sandmann said he was defusing the situation. I've never seen someone defuse a situation with that type of stance and smirk. I don't know what the kid thought he was doing, but he seems pretty proud of himself.

[Rocker Ute]

Sandmann said he was defusing the situation. I've never seen someone defuse a situation with that type of stance and smirk. I don't know what the kid thought he was doing, but he seems pretty proud of himself.

Did you watch that video? It seems to show him laughing with his friends unaware of what is going on as Phillips approaches. When he targets Sandmann he stands there and smiles. Sometime after, a native American man accompanying Phillips begins to argue with another (presumably) student. It doesn't show what started the argument, but it does show Sandmann turning from Phillips who is still drumming in his face to get the other student to be quiet and to stop arguing.

He's a kid, about every kid I know that age is pretty awkward. And in light of that additional detail, I personally believe he is telling the truth. If nothing else he shows that he was trying to get another person around him to at least stop arguing if not to be quiet while Phillips was beating his drum.

If you are curious about that portion of it, you can see it at minute 6:33 or by clicking this link: https://youtu.be/lSkpPaiUF8s?t=393

[mUUser]

I don't think you guys are being fair. But the Sandmann kid might sue. I hope he doesn't -- this thing needs to die...…..

I've seen a lot of video and I've yet to see a single shred of video or audio evidence that he was disrespecting, antagonizing or impeding Phillips. This kid comes out smelling like a rose IMO. I know nothing about libel/slander law (or any law for that matter), but, if the evidence is as it appears, I hope the kid cleans up.

[sancho]

Did you read what I said? Sandmann said he was defusing a situation. What situation was he defusing?

My understanding from what I've read (though I haven't watched the video):

Multiple protesters were trying to provoke a reaction out of the MAGA hat kids. Sandmann was trying to prevent that from happening by not responding and just standing with a stupid grin. Ironic that in trying to prevent a reaction, he became the reaction that the protesters were going for.

[LA Ute]

Trouble in progressive paradise.

New York Governor Cuomo blasts AOC and left-wing Democrats for 'putting political interests above community' and driving away Amazon - despite polls showing most people supported tech giant's new HQ

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6707007/Cuomo-blasts-AOC-Democrats-derailing-Amazon-headquarters-plans-New-York.html

[mUUser]

Trouble in progressive paradise.

New York Governor Cuomo blasts AOC and left-wing Democrats for 'putting political interests above community' and driving away Amazon - despite polls showing most people supported tech giant's new HQ

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6707007/Cuomo-blasts-AOC-Democrats-derailing-Amazon-headquarters-plans-New-York.html


Ha. This is like Lebron ready to sign on the dotted line with the Jazz and management allowing Tyler Cavanaugh to run him off. "Your stinkin' championships will raise the price of tickets!!" AOC is a cluster for the Dems.

[LA Ute]

Peggy Noonan:


Republicans Need to Save Capitalism

Let’s think about the broader, less immediate meaning of our political era.

This is how I read it and have read it for some time:

The Democratic Party is going hard left. There will be stops and starts but it’s the general trajectory and will be for the foreseeable future. Pew Research sees the party lurching to the left since 2009; Gallup says the percentage of Democrats calling themselves liberal has jumped 23 points since 2000. But you don’t need polls. More than 70 Democrats in the House, and a dozen in the Senate, have signed on to the Green New Deal, an extreme-to-the-point-of-absurdist plan that is yet serious: Its authors have staked out what they want in terms of environmental and economic policy, will try to win half or a quarter of it, and on victory will declare themselves to have been moderate all along. The next day they will continue to push for everything. The party’s presidential hopefuls propose to do away with private medical insurance and abolish ICE.

Three years ago Hillary Clinton would have called this extreme; today it is her party’s emerging consensus.

The academy and our mass entertainment culture are entities of the left and will continue to push in that direction. Millennials, the biggest voting-age bloc in America, are to the left of the generations before them. Moderates are aging out. The progressives are young and will give their lives to politics: It’s all they’ve ever known. It is a mistake to dismiss their leaders as goofballs who’ll soon fall off the stage. They may or may not, but those who support and surround them are serious ideologues who mean to own the future.

None of this feels like a passing phase. It feels like the outline of a great political struggle that will be fought over the next 10 years or more.

Two thoughts, in the broadest possible strokes, on how we got here:

The American establishment had to come to look very, very bad. Two long unwon wars destroyed the GOP’s reputation for sobriety in foreign affairs, and the 2008 crash cratered its reputation for economic probity. Both disasters gave those inclined to turn from the status quo inspiration and arguments. Culturally, 2008 was especially resonant: The government bailed out its buddies and threw no one in jail, and the capitalists failed to defend the system that made them rich. They dummied up, hunkered down and waited for it to pass.

Americans have long sort of accepted a kind of deal regarding leadership by various elites and establishments. The agreement was that if the elites more or less play by the rules, protect the integrity of the system, and care about the people, they can have their mansions. But when you begin to perceive that the great and mighty are not necessarily on your side, when they show no particular sense of responsibility to their fellow citizens, all bets are off. The compact is broken: They no longer get to have their mansions. They no longer get to be “the rich.”

For most of the 20th century the poor in America didn’t hate the rich for their mansions; they wanted a mansion and thought they could get one if things turned their way. When you think the system’s rigged, your attitude changes.

On the right the same wars, the same crash, and a different aspect. In the great issue of the 2016 campaign it became unmistakably clear that the GOP elite did not care in the least how the working class experienced immigration. The party already worried too much about border security—that’s the lesson the elites took from Mitt Romney’s loss in 2012, according to their famous autopsy. They appeared to look after their own needs, their own reputations: We’re not racist like people who worry about the border! They were, as I’ve written, the protected, who looked down on those with rougher lives. The unprotected noticed, and began to sunder their relationship with establishments and elites.

Donald Trump came of that sundering. He was the perfect insult thrown in the establishment’s face. You’re such losers we’re hiring a reality-TV star to take your place. He’ll be better than you.
Conservatives regularly attend symposia to discuss the future of conservatism. Republicans in Washington stumble around trying to figure what to stand for beyond capitalizing on whatever zany thing some socialist said today.

But isn’t their historical purpose clear? Their job—now and in the coming decade—is, in a supple, clever and concerted way, to save the free-market system from those who would dismantle it. It is to preserve and defend the capitalism that made America a great thing in the world and that, for all its flaws and inequities, created and spread stupendous wealth. The natural job of conservatives is to conserve, in this case that great system.

I’ll go whole hog here. We need a cleaned-up capitalism, not a weary, sighing, acceptance-of-man’s-fallen-nature capitalism. Republicans and conservatives need a more capacious sense of what is needed in America now, including what their own voters need. The party needs a tax-and-spending reality that takes into account an understandable and prevalent mood of great need. They need to be moderate, peaceable and tactful on social issues, but firm, too. This is where the left really is insane: As the earnest, dimwitted governor of Virginia thoughtfully pointed out, they do allow the full-term baby to be born, then make it comfortable as they debate whether it should be allowed to take its first breath or quietly expire on the table. A party that can’t stand up against that doesn’t deserve to exist.



All this must be done with a sense of how Americans on the ground are seeing things. What they see all around them cultural catastrophe—drugs, the decline of faith, the splintering of all norms by which they’d lived, schools that don’t teach and that leave their kids with a generalized anxiety. They want more help to deal with this. If you said, “We’re going to have a national program to help our boys become good men,” they would be for it, they would cheer. If you said, “We’re going to get serious and apply brains and money to what we all know is a mental-health crisis in America,” they wouldn’t care about the cost—and they’d be right not to care. They think as a people we’ve changed, our character has changed, and this dims our future. Make things better on the ground now and we’ll figure out the rest later.

These are not quaint nostalgists pining for the past, they are realists looking at ruin. They know some future crisis will test whether we can hold together as a nation. Whatever holds us together now must be undergirded, expanded.

Much will depend on how the Republican Party handles this epic era, because the Democrats are not only going left, they will do it badly. They will lurch, they will be spurred by anger and abstractions, they will be destructive. They really would kill the goose that laid the golden egg, because they feel no loyalty to it.

Republicans, save that goose. Change yourselves and save capitalism.

You are thinking, “My goodness, that’s what FDR said he was doing!”

Yes.

[UTEopia]

Peggy Noonan:




I believe the GOP abandoned capitalism along time ago. The GOP already experienced this in the past election cycle with the selection of Trump over other candidates. The moderate GOP candidates didn't stand a chance. Neither did the far-right. The party abandoned all of that in favor of someone whose only ideology is what is best for him. The GOP with the tax plan that further rewards corporations and the uber wealthy and their failure to do anything meaningful about healthcare (issues that effect the masses) will help push the Dems. forward. The Dems, however, are their own worst enemies.

[LA Ute]

Carlos Danger is out.

Ex-congressman Weiner released from prison after sexting scandal (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-people-anthonyweiner/ex-congressman-weiner-released-from-prison-after-sexting-scandal-idUSKCN1Q60P6)

[LA Ute]

I believe the GOP abandoned capitalism along time ago. The GOP already experienced this in the past election cycle with the selection of Trump over other candidates. The moderate GOP candidates didn't stand a chance. Neither did the far-right. The party abandoned all of that in favor of someone whose only ideology is what is best for him. The GOP with the tax plan that further rewards corporations and the uber wealthy and their failure to do anything meaningful about healthcare (issues that effect the masses) will help push the Dems. forward. The Dems, however, are their own worst enemies.

I disagree with the characterization of either the GOP or the Dems as monolithic bodies. They're both complex political organizations.

[sancho]

I disagree with the characterization of either the GOP or the Dems as monolithic bodies. They're both complex political organizations.

Sure, but in the end, they do vote as monolithic bodies. We've seen that even the most unqualified candidate will be supported by their party. All the complexity averages out into two monoliths in the end.

[LA Ute]

Sure, but in the end, they do vote as monolithic bodies. We've seen that even the most unqualified candidate will be supported by their party. All the complexity averages out into two monoliths in the end.

So what did you expect “the GOP,” as you see, to do about Trump in 2016? It sounds like you’re assigning collective responsibility?

[sancho]

So what did you expect “the GOP,” as you see, to do about Trump in 2016? It sounds like you’re assigning collective responsibility?

I wasn't thinking about collective responsibility. I think we're all a bit guilty in different ways; certainly the two parties are guilty for where we are now. I was just saying that all the vibrant, complex diversity within a party doesn't add up to much in the end when every senator votes the party line 95% of the time.

As for what I wanted the GOP to do in 2016, I wanted people to not support Trump. It came down to party vs principle. Some chose principle, but most chose party. People on both sides always feel like each election is too important to sacrifice in a principled stand.

[Irving Washington]

I wasn't thinking about collective responsibility. I think we're all a bit guilty in different ways; certainly the two parties are guilty for where we are now. I was just saying that all the vibrant, complex diversity within a party doesn't add up to much in the end when every senator votes the party line 95% of the time.

As for what I wanted the GOP to do in 2016, I wanted people to not support Trump. It came down to party vs principle. Some chose principle, but most chose party. People on both sides always feel like each election is too important to sacrifice in a principled stand.
For those outside the Trump core, wasn't the common call the need to entrench a conservative Supreme Court? LA, you've said the Court has become too important, so what prevented a vote based upon principle, other than Hillary's unlikability? What was she a threat to do?

[LA Ute]

For those outside the Trump core, wasn't the common call the need to entrench a conservative Supreme Court? LA, you've said the Court has become too important, so what prevented a vote based upon principle, other than Hillary's unlikability? What was she a threat to do?

If you were a conservative during the 2016 election, you were very worried about a 5-4 liberal majority on the Supreme Court. I don’t think liberals have quite the same level of worry. Roe v. Wade is safe, I think, and so major changes in the American way of life are not likely to occur with a conservative 5-4 majority. A liberal Supreme Court is, on the other hand, willing to make changes in the American way of life by virtue of a vote by single justice. I realize others may disagree strongly with me on this. Agree or not, that is the way the world looks to someone from a principled conservative point of view.

[concerned]

If you were a conservative during the 2016 election, you were very worried about a 5-4 liberal majority on the Supreme Court. I don’t think liberals have quite the same level of worry. Roe v. Wade is safe, I think, and so major changes in the American way of life are not likely to occur with a conservative 5-4 majority. A liberal Supreme Court is, on the other hand, willing to make changes in the American way of life by virtue of a vote by single justice. I realize others may disagree strongly with me on this. Agree or not, that is the way the world looks to someone from a principled conservative point of view.

Roe v. Wade is safe? If someone like Kavenaugh succeeds RBG, it is likely gone, based on Kavenaugh's recent dissent. Safe until after the 2020 election, anyway, so that a reversal doesn't tip over the electoral apple cart.

What is the principled conservative viewpoint on the national emergency declaration?

of course, if RBG were to die next year, McConnell would apply the same conservative principle he applied to Scalia/Garland, and not entertain nominations so that the people could have a voice in the selection through the 2020 election.

[Applejack]

If you were a conservative during the 2016 election, you were very worried about a 5-4 liberal majority on the Supreme Court. I don’t think liberals have quite the same level of worry. Roe v. Wade is safe, I think, and so major changes in the American way of life are not likely to occur with a conservative 5-4 majority. A liberal Supreme Court is, on the other hand, willing to make changes in the American way of life by virtue of a vote by single justice. I realize others may disagree strongly with me on this. Agree or not, that is the way the world looks to someone from a principled conservative point of view.

LOL. "Principled conservative point of view."

This a great post.

[concerned]

A liberal Supreme Court is, on the other hand, willing to make changes in the American way of life by virtue of a vote by single justice.

Your are right. A conservative majority would never make changes to the American way of life like Citizens United or Shelby.

[sancho]

If you were a conservative during the 2016 election, you were very worried about a 5-4 liberal majority on the Supreme Court.

There is always some kind of national emergency that justifies our bad politics (in both parties). The Trump presidency shows just how far people are willing to go to deny the other party a chance a leadership. We claim we'll just set aside our principles until we weather the "crisis," but I don't think principles can be easily picked up after being cast off.

[Rocker Ute]

There is always some kind of national emergency that justifies our bad politics (in both parties). The Trump presidency shows just how far people are willing to go to deny the other party a chance a leadership. We claim we'll just set aside our principles until we weather the "crisis," but I don't think principles can be easily picked up after being cast off.

You are right, because if they are cast off, they are no longer principles.

[LA Ute]

Roe v. Wade is safe? If someone like Kavenaugh succeeds RBG, it is likely gone, based on Kavenaugh's recent dissent. Safe until after the 2020 election, anyway, so that a reversal doesn't tip over the electoral apple cart.

What is the principled conservative viewpoint on the national emergency declaration?

I don't think Roe v. Wade will be overturned. I think it might be chipped away at, and we'd end up with abortion laws like those of Western Europe, a region of the world which many American progressives think represents wise progressive thinking on just about every other issue. Legislatures, from Congress to the states, would then have to reach into their gut bags and actually make policy on the issue.

IMO, in terms of impact on the lives of everyday Americans and their deeply held beliefs about what is important in life, Citizens United and Shelby pale in comparison to Roe v. Wade and Obergefell.

I think principled conservatives largely think the national emergency declaration on the border is a horrible presidential action. I certianly do. See the Wall Street Journal editorial board position, for example. End runs around Congress are unacceptable and unconstitutional. (Obama did his share of those, but progressives were somehow able to contain their horror. )


LOL. "Principled conservative point of view."

This a great post.

I'm always happy to earn one of your LOLs. But you need to get out more. Instead of simply ridiculing the concept of conservative principles, read some Russell Kirk or William F. Buckley. Maybe some of the Federalist Papers. There's good stuff there by really smart people. They might still earn some LOLs from you, but you might gain some perspective on opposing points of view.

[concerned]

IMO, in terms of impact on the lives of everyday Americans and their deeply held beliefs about what is important in life, Citizens United and Shelby pale in comparison to Roe v. Wade and Obergefell.



Citizens United and Shelby County dramatically affected every single person in this country, including you and me, because they affect the outcome as to how elections are conducted, who gets elected, and who has influence. Roe and Obergefell did not affect you or me at all. They directly affect gays who want to get married or women who want to abort. You think Roe and Obergefell are more significant, because you don't like their result, and I suspect you like the effect of Citizens and Shelby on elections and the electorate.

[sancho]

Roe and Obergefell did not affect you or me at all.

I don't agree with this. All these cases have their impact on the nation. Moral issues in particular affect us all.

In addition to the general impact of a case involving a moral issue, Roe has had a huge negative impact by becoming the driving issue in every election of the past 50 years.

[concerned]

I don't agree with this. All these cases have their impact on the nation. Moral issues in particular affect us all.

In addition to the general impact of a case involving a moral issue, Roe has had a huge negative impact by becoming the driving issue in every election of the past 50 years.

I recognize that Roe and Obergefell affect many religious and moral beliefs; I said they directly affect persons in those two groups. Cititizens United and Shelby affect every single person on every single issue, including abortion and gay marriage, and many many more.

[Applejack]

I'm always happy to earn one of your LOLs. But you need to get out more. Instead of simply ridiculing the concept of conservative principles, read some Russell Kirk or William F. Buckley. Maybe some of the Federalist Papers. There's good stuff there by really smart people. They might still earn some LOLs from you, but you might gain some perspective on opposing points of view.

I don't remember the federalist papers stating that republicans should worry about losing the Court but democrats have nothing to fear if they lose the Court. Admittedly, it's been awhile since I read it so it might be there.