1998's Revenge - The Utah-Kentucky Thread

[UtahsMrSports]

Saturday afternoon in Lexington. I literally just want to see some fight, urgency, and toughness.

[DrumNFeather]

Saturday afternoon in Lexington. I literally just want to see some fight, urgency, and toughness.

The team literally has nothing to lose in this game. Nobody expects them to win...fans are bailing...I suspect a fair amount won't even watch. Larry needs to take the reigns off a little and just let them play free and loose and see what happens.

[SoCalPat]

The team literally has nothing to lose in this game. Nobody expects them to win...fans are bailing...I suspect a fair amount won't even watch. Larry needs to take the reigns off a little and just let them play free and loose and see what happens.

A good start would be especially beneficial. BBN is feeling a little salty after the Seton Hall loss. Get a feeling of dread in the building among fans, and it will spread to this team.

[U-Ute]

I see Kentucky struggling because they are a young team, and I am like "cool, two young teams going at it, we have a chance."

Then I see the recruiting rankings of their young players vs ours.

It is going to be a tough one. I agree that I just want to see some fight and consistency.

[LA Ute]

I will watch, but it's sad to think that there is so little excitement or anticipation for a game against Kentucky. Remember how excited we were to play Duke in the Garden a few years ago?

Fire Larry K.

[Scorcho]

Fire Larry K.

this spot reserved for LA Ute to call for Bill Kinneberg's job ;)

hat trick

[LA Ute]

this spot reserved for LA Ute to call for Bill Kinneberg's job ;)

hat trick

Why not fire him? He probably shares some of the blame for basketball´s woes. After all, basketball and baseball arevery similar words. I think we should be looking at Mark Harlan and Ruth Watkins too. And there´s always Chris Hill.

[concerned]

Why not fire him? He probably shares some of the blame for basketball´s woes. After all, basketball and baseball arevery similar words. I think we should be looking at Mark Harlan and Ruth Watkins too. And there´s always Chris Hill.


And Obama and G. W Bush.

[LA Ute]

And Obama and G. W Bush.

Let´s get serious here. It all started with Woodrow Wilson.

[UtahsMrSports]

Bold prediction: at least one of the core 4 runnin utes has a breakout game today.

[chrisrenrut]

1073705718354714624

[LA Ute]

So I’m sitting here asking myself: How did our basketball program fall to this level? By “level“ I mean not really competitive against other division 1 schools.

[Old Standing ute]

Although they beat Tulsa who then beat #19 K. St, so like most young teams they have their moments--just not away from home.

But the bigger issue is that I now believe in voter fraud--there is no way Charles Jones was player of the year in JUCO last year. He has no game--can't dribble, can't shoot. If I was in JUCO last year I would demand a re-count.

[concerned]

So I’m sitting here asking myself: How did our basketball program fall to this level? By “level“ I mean not really competitive against other division 1 schools.

Its like watching Larry's first year all over again. Groundhog day but without Andie McDowell

[Solon]

It is. In the past 5 years, even when we weren't a tournament team, we played competitively against top 25 teams. I expected us to be raw this season, but I didn't expect this.
It’s embarrassing.

Luckily, it’s December. I think we will see improvement.

I was in and out watching the game while I was at the gym.
i had to check the box score midway through the second half to see if Tillman had played.
The fake Shadow figures on “Ghost Adventures” are more present than Tillman and Barefield were today for most of the game.

[UtahsMrSports]

Its like watching Larry's first year all over again. Groundhog day but without Andie McDowell

We are nowhere near 2011-12. A better comp is 12-13. That group had better senior leadership.

[Ma'ake]

Didn't watch the game, but... what has happened to Barefield, and especially Tillman?

I appreciate what Barefield has done, he gave us 3 decent years, basically won the game at St. Marys. Donnie's Sophomore Slump is a mystery, given all the work he put in.

These guys might just be in a trough, mentally, emotionally. Given the level of competition, I'll give them a pass for today, but really hope they bounce back.

[Diehard Ute]

Didn't watch the game, but... what has happened to Barefield, and especially Tillman?

I appreciate what Barefield has done, he gave us 3 decent years, basically won the game at St. Marys. Donnie's Sophomore Slump is a mystery, given all the work he put in.

These guys might just be in a trough, mentally, emotionally. Given the level of competition, I'll give them a pass for today, but really hope they bounce back.

ESPN’s crew said they spent 2 days with the Utes and Barefield never said a word.....that’s bad.


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[Mormon Red Death]

Even though it's a loss, I'm glad I'm watching this game to witness the moment Gach officially became our future.You've caught #gachscratchfever

[Scorcho]

You've caught #gachscratchfever

:rofl::rofl:

[concerned]

Hmmm. Ive been wondering about Gach and Scratch for a while now.

[SoCalPat]

Although they beat Tulsa who then beat #19 K. St, so like most young teams they have their moments--just not away from home.

But the bigger issue is that I now believe in voter fraud--there is no way Charles Jones was player of the year in JUCO last year. He has no game--can't dribble, can't shoot. If I was in JUCO last year I would demand a re-count.

Teams will use Jones to neg recruit us as long as Larry is around. The cratering of his career thus far is not a good look for anyone involved with the Utah program.

CSI had two really good point guards in the time I've lived in Idaho. Pierre Jackson had a cup of coffee in the NBA, and Fabyon Harris was a two-year starter and 12 PPG guy at Texas A&M. Jones didn't have the career Jackson did, but he was a significantly better prospect than Harris. You don't average 25 PPG and lead your team to the NJCAA title game without having ability.

I would never turn down a player with Jones' resume at Utah. Ever. But why would he have been interested in us? We've been a walk-it-up, slow-tempo team from the moment Larry arrived. The system at Utah is the antithesis of what he did at CSI. Unless there's a significant change in production, hard to imagine Jones wanting to stick around for his senior year.

[SoCalPat]

We are nowhere near 2011-12. A better comp is 12-13. That group had better senior leadership.

By senior leadership, you mean Jason Washburn. Cuz that was it as far as that category is concerned.

Your 2012-13 comparison is not encouraging. Larry's coaching for his job in 2019-20 if we get 2012-13 results this year, because this year's team might be worse -- and definitely so on the defensive end. Consider: In 2012-13, the only team to score more than 80 points against us in league play was Stanford, which did it twice and a team we had no answer for in Larry's first 3 years. Arizona -- a top 10 team all season long -- averaged 64 points against us in two games.

This year, in our losses, we're giving up a shade under 82 points per game. We gave up 76 to NAIA Division II College of Idaho, for god's sake. That's a flat-out abomination. Ray Giacoletti thinks our defense stinks.

Our problem in 2012-13 was scoring. We never broke 80 against a D-1 team. We were a coin-flip prop just to break 60 in Pac-12 play. Our season high was 79 vs Cal in the Pac-12 quarters, and we needed OT to get there. Our highest game in regulation was the Majerus Game -- Boise State, when we scored 76 in a huge upset in the first game we played after Maji's death. But as noted, we could defend. And that would keep us competitive in games we had no business being competitive (While 15-18 straight up, Utah was 20-10 against the spread that year; this year, we're 2-7.).

Scoring isn't nearly the problem this year. This year's team is clearly more talented, especially in the backcourt. Or it should be. I'm glad you made the comparison because it forced me to go back in time and see the actual disparity between that team and this year's team, and see what our teams were once built out of. As much as I hated the close losses and the lowering of the bar set in that season by people who seemed OK with leading the league in moral victories, in hindsight, you can see Larry was building something then. What's being built today? It sure isn't evident with the product he's putting on the floor. He's doing a horrible job and there's no defending it.

One more thing -- our starting backcourt in 2012-13 on Day 1 (not at season's end, obviously) was Glen Dean and Aaron Dotson. They were filler. Larry's in Year 8. There's no filler on the roster. He's doing less with more. If you could have this year's Larry coach against 2012-13 Larry, and put all those players together for a simulated game, I bet 2012-13 Larry kicks the shit out of this year's Larry. We won five league games in 2012-13. Are you saying we should be OK with similar results this year?

[UtahsMrSports]

By senior leadership, you mean Jason Washburn. Cuz that was it as far as that category is concerned.

Your 2012-13 comparison is not encouraging. Larry's coaching for his job in 2019-20 if we get 2012-13 results this year, because this year's team might be worse -- and definitely so on the defensive end. Consider: In 2012-13, the only team to score more than 80 points against us in league play was Stanford, which did it twice and a team we had no answer for in Larry's first 3 years. Arizona -- a top 10 team all season long -- averaged 64 points against us in two games.

This year, in our losses, we're giving up a shade under 82 points per game. We gave up 76 to NAIA Division II College of Idaho, for god's sake. That's a flat-out abomination. Ray Giacoletti thinks our defense stinks.

Our problem in 2012-13 was scoring. We never broke 80 against a D-1 team. We were a coin-flip prop just to break 60 in Pac-12 play. Our season high was 79 vs Cal in the Pac-12 quarters, and we needed OT to get there. Our highest game in regulation was the Majerus Game -- Boise State, when we scored 76 in a huge upset in the first game we played after Maji's death. But as noted, we could defend. And that would keep us competitive in games we had no business being competitive (While 15-18 straight up, Utah was 20-10 against the spread that year; this year, we're 2-7.).

Scoring isn't nearly the problem this year. This year's team is clearly more talented, especially in the backcourt. Or it should be. I'm glad you made the comparison because it forced me to go back in time and see the actual disparity between that team and this year's team, and see what our teams were once built out of. As much as I hated the close losses and the lowering of the bar set in that season by people who seemed OK with leading the league in moral victories, in hindsight, you can see Larry was building something then. What's being built today? It sure isn't evident with the product he's putting on the floor. He's doing a horrible job and there's no defending it.

One more thing -- our starting backcourt in 2012-13 on Day 1 (not at season's end, obviously) was Glen Dean and Aaron Dotson. They were filler. Larry's in Year 8. There's no filler on the roster. He's doing less with more. If you could have this year's Larry coach against 2012-13 Larry, and put all those players together for a simulated game, I bet 2012-13 Larry kicks the shit out of this year's Larry. We won five league games in 2012-13. Are you saying we should be OK with similar results this year?

You're forgetting JD Dubois when it comes to sr leadership.

And no....im not ok with any of the results or where we are at. I hope and believe there's a light at the end of this tunnel. But I'm not 100% sure.

My argument was against those comparimg this year's squad to Larry's first.....where we were a sub 300 team.

[concerned]

By senior leadership, you mean Jason Washburn. Cuz that was it as far as that category is concerned.

Your 2012-13 comparison is not encouraging. Larry's coaching for his job in 2019-20 if we get 2012-13 results this year, because this year's team might be worse -- and definitely so on the defensive end. Consider: In 2012-13, the only team to score more than 80 points against us in league play was Stanford, which did it twice and a team we had no answer for in Larry's first 3 years. Arizona -- a top 10 team all season long -- averaged 64 points against us in two games.

This year, in our losses, we're giving up a shade under 82 points per game. We gave up 76 to NAIA Division II College of Idaho, for god's sake. That's a flat-out abomination. Ray Giacoletti thinks our defense stinks.

Our problem in 2012-13 was scoring. We never broke 80 against a D-1 team. We were a coin-flip prop just to break 60 in Pac-12 play. Our season high was 79 vs Cal in the Pac-12 quarters, and we needed OT to get there. Our highest game in regulation was the Majerus Game -- Boise State, when we scored 76 in a huge upset in the first game we played after Maji's death. But as noted, we could defend. And that would keep us competitive in games we had no business being competitive (While 15-18 straight up, Utah was 20-10 against the spread that year; this year, we're 2-7.).

Scoring isn't nearly the problem this year. This year's team is clearly more talented, especially in the backcourt. Or it should be. I'm glad you made the comparison because it forced me to go back in time and see the actual disparity between that team and this year's team, and see what our teams were once built out of. As much as I hated the close losses and the lowering of the bar set in that season by people who seemed OK with leading the league in moral victories, in hindsight, you can see Larry was building something then. What's being built today? It sure isn't evident with the product he's putting on the floor. He's doing a horrible job and there's no defending it.

One more thing -- our starting backcourt in 2012-13 on Day 1 (not at season's end, obviously) was Glen Dean and Aaron Dotson. They were filler. Larry's in Year 8. There's no filler on the roster. He's doing less with more. If you could have this year's Larry coach against 2012-13 Larry, and put all those players together for a simulated game, I bet 2012-13 Larry kicks the shit out of this year's Larry. We won five league games in 2012-13. Are you saying we should be OK with similar results this year?


Your tweet was particularly dispiriting



Patrick Sheltra‏
@100ThingsUtah
(https://twitter.com/100ThingsUtah) Following Following
@100ThingsUtah





Even in the 5-win first season, Utah was a point spread monster in Larry's first four years. A veritable ATM. Playing above expectations by a wide margin. In the R32 and NIT years, about a .500 team ATS. This year? 2-7. There's a ton of money to be made by fading Utah now.

[concerned]

You're forgetting JD Dubois when it comes to sr leadership.

And no....im not ok with any of the results or where we are at. I hope and believe there's a light at the end of this tunnel. But I'm not 100% sure.

My argument was against those comparimg this year's squad to Larry's first.....where we were a sub 300 team.


The comparison has more to do with the experience of watching the team rather than the ranking I hate watching this team, which was my experience in 2011-12. This team is excruciating. I had no feeling of optimism then, and none now. That was a season just to get through and forget; so is this. Despite Gach.

[LA Ute]

The comparison has more to do with the experience of watching the team rather than the ranking I hate watching this team, which was my experience in 2011-12. This team is excruciating. I had no feeling of optimism then, and none now. That was a season just to get through and forget; so is this. Despite Gach.

I haven´t been to a game yet this season. I haven´t watched an entire game yet either. A first for me. I´m starting to think Larry´s lost his zeal for coaching at Utah. My guess is that the U. will not need to worry about his buyout — it would not surprise me to see him simply take another job,

[concerned]

I´m starting to think Larry´s lost his zeal for coaching at Utah. My guess is that the U. will not need to worry about his buyout — it would not surprise me to see him simply take another job,

That has not occurred to me, but I think you are right.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I hope something like that happens. I assume he has a buyout clause if another team hires him away, but I hope Mark Harlan will negotiate that down to $500 and picking up the tab for lunch.

[U-Ute]

I'm still hanging onto the bandwagon. It is by my fingernails though.

This team is young, but much more talented than the 6-25 team. That team played hard but couldn't throw the ball into the ocean if their lives depended on it. Our best player was Cedric Martin. Great guy, but he isn't going to carry you to victory. This team has talent. Plus, we're playing without Thoune who I think has a huge upside like Gach. I think we see a big turnaround near the end of January when they start putting things together. That's the hope I'm clinging to.

The real head scratcher for me is Barefield and Tillman. Those guys have really faded this year. They need to man up and carry this team.

[SoCalPat]

I hope something like that happens. I assume he has a buyout clause if another team hires him away, but I hope Mark Harlan will negotiate that down to $500 and picking up the tab for lunch.

Assuming no more than 7 league wins and a finish no higher than 8th this year, with only periodic flashes of marked improvement ...

I think it would say a lot about Larry and his desire to make things better if he was a willing party to renegotiate his contract. His salary is a major sticking point among the fanbase, and rightfully so. We're not getting what we're paying for, and haven't been for some time. It would buy him tremendous goodwill among two major shareholders -- alumni/fans, and the media. If he's willing to do so, I'd lean strongly toward giving him two more seasons to figure things out.

If he's not willing to do so, then you've got an easy decision in front of you.

[SoCalPat]

You're forgetting JD Dubois when it comes to sr leadership.

And no....im not ok with any of the results or where we are at. I hope and believe there's a light at the end of this tunnel. But I'm not 100% sure.

My argument was against those comparimg this year's squad to Larry's first.....where we were a sub 300 team.

Cedric Martin was also on that team, and I'm at a loss for how I looked at the Wiki page for that team and saw only Washburn. My bad ...

[SoCalPat]

Your tweet was particularly dispiriting



Patrick Sheltra‏
@100ThingsUtah
(https://twitter.com/100ThingsUtah) Following Following
@100ThingsUtah





Even in the 5-win first season, Utah was a point spread monster in Larry's first four years. A veritable ATM. Playing above expectations by a wide margin. In the R32 and NIT years, about a .500 team ATS. This year? 2-7. There's a ton of money to be made by fading Utah now.



Utah in the Pac-12 ... ATS (Season record in lined games)

2011-12: 14-16 (5-25)
2012-13: 20-10-1 (13-18)
2013-14: 20-8 (16-12)
2014-15: 22-12 (25-9)
2015-16: 17-16-1 (25-9)
2016-17: 14-15-1 (18-12)
2017-18: 19-13 (21-12)
2018-19: 2-7 (4-5)

In our first four years, we were +17 in ATS wins vs. SU wins. In our last four years, we're -12.

[SoCalPat]

Are you suggesting that Jones is just a bad fit who would thrive elsewhere? Maybe, but it's hard to see that. He has shown absolutely nothing. Not one positive moment in the entire season. Maybe he's going through something. Maybe it's psychological. Or, maybe he's just a bust. That's what it looks like.

He'll thrive elsewhere for sure, but it likely won't be in a power conference. Like I said, I have no idea why both sides were so enamored with one another when there were plenty of red flags to suggest Jones wouldn't live up to the hype he generated at CSI.

[U-Ute]

He'll thrive elsewhere for sure, but it likely won't be in a power conference. Like I said, I have no idea why both sides were so enamored with one another when there were plenty of red flags to suggest Jones wouldn't live up to the hype he generated at CSI.

Yeah. He's been a head scratcher to me too. His shot isn't great. Too flat. He must've just been more athletic than his competition at the JC level.

[Old Standing ute]

Yeah. He's been a head scratcher to me too. His shot isn't great. Too flat. He must've just been more athletic than his competition at the JC level.

Plus he does not handle the ball well. he is very athletic, but not a good basketball player.

I think Larry is still working at it full speed. I don't think he wants out or will walk away.

If Gach is out tonight, then Sedrick will be running the team, which is not his thing.

Tillman needs to get his head straight & get aggressive.

the "crowd" tonight might number in the 100's.