Since we have Utah fans and BYU fans here I'd like to revisit a question that came up

[Corvan]

a few years back. I was doing some work with a company back in late 2009/early 2010. The company was probably more Utah oriented than BYU but a fair amount of BYU fans, mostly cool, some fanatics.

One day there was one of the overly blue guys on the phone who obviously also bled a deeper shade of royal blue. They were talking about how if in 2010 BYU didn't go to a BCS bowl it was time to get rid of Bronco because it was unacceptable for BYU to not play in a BCS game when Utah had done it twice. One of their employees, a guy named Dave, overhearing the conversation asked me as a Utah fan an interesting question. If (at the time) the BCS busters had been Houston, BSU, Hawaii and TCU instead of Utah and the other three would it be as big of an issue that BYU hadn't been to a BCS game? Bear in mind that football and athletics is probably #100 on Dave's priorities in life. He's from California, has no interest in either team and was speaking as a neutral observer as best I could see.

My opinion was and still is that it wouldn't matter as much to BYU fan if the former scenario was true.

Thoughts from both sides?

[UTEopia]

Don't care what byu fans feel or how they would feel in other circumstances.

[SeattleUte]

BYU very much still measures iteself in relation to Utah. Indeed, it made the mistake of leaving the MWC 100% on the rebound. The stories about what a great financial deal it was and finally BYU was reaping what it had deserved and been giving up out of solidarity with Utah were all spin. At this point what else is there for BYU to compare itself to? It's independent. Of necessity, our natural benchmarks are other Pac 12 members. Utah is experiencing some challenges, but BYU is in truly hard times.

[FMCoug]

BYU very much still measures iteself in relation to Utah. Indeed, it made the mistake of leaving the MWC 100% on the rebound. The stories about what a great financial deal it was and finally BYU was reaping what it had deserved and been giving up out of solidarity with Utah were all spin. At this point what else is there for BYU to compare itself to? It's independent. Of necessity, our natural benchmarks are other Pac 12 members. Utah is experiencing some challenges, but BYU is in truly hard times.

NOBODY could have predicted that response.

[Viking]

NOBODY could have predicted that response.

predictable, but true.

Utah is in great shape. BYU needs to engineer an incredible comeback.

[Corvan]

FM - Appreciate your response to Seattle but what is your perspective about the initial post if you don't mind answering?

[LA Ute]

I think that rivalries push both sides to do better. The impact of the rivalry on Utah and BYU's plans and motivation is already fading, though.

BYU's football success in the 1980s drove envious Utah boosters to push for improvement. It was galling to the max to watch them succeed while we were awful. Older Ute fans especially hated that. The formation of the Crimson Club occurred in 1983 and was the result of Ute boosters wanting to raise the entire athletic program to a higher level -- in large part because they could see BYU leaving us behind. (In the minds of many BYU boosters that had already occurred and Utah would never catch up. So said none other than H.B. Arnett, the bluest of blue BYU newsletter reporters of that era.) I remember the first letter I received from the first president of the CC, which ended with the words "we have Cougars to kill."

Now Utah has moved on and that shoe's on the other foot. Our BCS success drove BYU fans crazy (or at least green with envy) and was very sweet for those of us who lived through the 80s. So yes, I think that without Utah's BCS success, BYU fans would have still hated the BCS and wanted very much to get into a BCS bowl, but seeing Utah do it instead of them -- twice -- was a very bitter pill. There's no way the BCS would have been as big an issue without Utah's success.

This YouTube was done by a BYU fan (who posts on the former CUF board) after their ignominious loss to Utah in 2008, when for the second time in that decade a Utah blowout win over BYU put us in a BCS bowl:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6CROOR2QN8

Our joining the PAC-12 is horribly difficult for them -- or at least the ones who are honest about it.

So now I still think a large segment of the fan base of each school thinks it is important to outdo the rival, although now, with fewer common opponents, the comparisons are more difficult to make. As we each go out different directions, that will fade. Kids born after 1995 will not remember a time when BYU was dominant over Utah in football.

[FMCoug]

FM - Appreciate your response to Seattle but what is your perspective about the initial post if you don't mind answering?

I pretty much agree with LA Ute above. We are (turning into were) a big rivalry. Of course rivals are going to measure themselves against each other. We are in the same market, compete for many of the same recruits and fans, etc. So of course BYU fans care more about Utah going to BCS bowls than they would TCU, BSU, etc. And if the show were on the other foot, Ute fans would feel the same way.

I'd be lying if I said I'm happy with where BYU is at right now. But I'm not throwing in the towel either ... it is not as dire as SU or LAU make it sound. Time will tell.

Now if we end up with a bunch of super conferences in a playoff and BYU is not included, that is a different story.

[LA Ute]

I pretty much agree with LA Ute above. We are (turning into were) a big rivalry. Of course rivals are going to measure themselves against each other. We are in the same market, compete for many of the same recruits and fans, etc. So of course BYU fans care more about Utah going to BCS bowls than they would TCU, BSU, etc. And if the show were on the other foot, Ute fans would feel the same way.

I'd be lying if I said I'm happy with where BYU is at right now. But I'm not throwing in the towel either ... it is not as dire as SU or LAU make it sound. Time will tell.

Now if we end up with a bunch of super conferences in a playoff and BYU is not included, that is a different story.

The one thing that keeps my feet on the ground about this situation is that I know darn well how I'd feel if our situations were reversed. There are lots of people in my life I care about who are BYU fans and I am sensitive to how life looks to them right now.

[Coastal Ute]

I think that rivalries push both sides to do better. The impact of the rivalry on Utah and BYU's plans and motivation is already fading, though.

BYU's football success in the 1980s drove envious Utah boosters to push for improvement. It was galling to the max to watch them succeed while we were awful. Older Ute fans especially hated that. The formation of the Crimson Club occurred in 1983 and was the result of Ute boosters wanting to raise the entire athletic program to a higher level -- in large part because they could see BYU leaving us behind. (In the minds of many BYU boosters that had already occurred and Utah would never catch up. So said none other than H.B. Arnett, the bluest of blue BYU newsletter reporters of that era.) I remember the first letter I received from the first president of the CC, which ended with the words "we have Cougars to kill."

Now Utah has moved on and that shoe's on the other foot. Our BCS success drove BYU fans crazy (or at least green with envy) and was very sweet for those of us who lived through the 80s. So yes, I think that without Utah's BCS success, BYU fans would have still hated the BCS and wanted very much to get into a BCS bowl, but seeing Utah do it instead of them -- twice -- was a very bitter pill. There's no way the BCS would have been as big an issue without Utah's success.

This YouTube was done by a BYU fan (who posts on the former CUF board) after their ignominious loss to Utah in 2008, when for the second time in that decade a Utah blowout win over BYU put us in a BCS bowl:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6CROOR2QN8

Our joining the PAC-12 is horribly difficult for them -- or at least the ones who are honest about it.

So now I still think a large segment of the fan base of each school thinks it is important to outdo the rival, although now, with fewer common opponents, the comparisons are more difficult to make. As we each go out different directions, that will fade. Kids born after 1995 will not remember a time when BYU was dominant over Utah in football.

That video is a classic. Gets me every time.

[kccougar]

Both teams measure their success relative to their rival. If you doubt Utah does it now that they are currently on top, just note the PAC12 sticker phenomenon.

[LA Ute]

Both teams measure their success relative to their rival. If you doubt Utah does it now that they are currently on top, just note the PAC12 sticker phenomenon.

Yeah, we're still giddy about it. Give us a couple of years. In fairness, you must admit that if BYU got into the Big 12 there would be similar giddiness, as well as many testimonies borne about how this is just another step forward for a school with a special divine mission.

[Utah]

I pretty much agree with LA Ute above. We are (turning into were) a big rivalry. Of course rivals are going to measure themselves against each other. We are in the same market, compete for many of the same recruits and fans, etc. So of course BYU fans care more about Utah going to BCS bowls than they would TCU, BSU, etc. And if the show were on the other foot, Ute fans would feel the same way.

I'd be lying if I said I'm happy with where BYU is at right now. But I'm not throwing in the towel either ... it is not as dire as SU or LAU make it sound. Time will tell.

Now if we end up with a bunch of super conferences in a playoff and BYU is not included, that is a different story.

Hasn't this already happened? There is a playoff, there are five "super" conferences, and IF strength of schedule is the most important factor as many say, it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone outside of the big 5 to get into the playoffs, because they will NEVER have a tougher perceived schedule.

The SEC has talked about 9 conference games, the PAC-12 and Big 12 are already there, and hasn't the B1G talked about 10 conference games?

BYU had better get into a conference quick, or they are done. With the new playoff, and new BCS format, they are screwed when it comes to post-season play. As long as BYU is independent, they will be the last team in this state to play in a BCS/playoff game.

[FMCoug]

Yeah, we're still giddy about it. Give us a couple of years. In fairness, you must admit that if BYU got into the Big 12 there would be similar giddiness, as well as many testimonies borne about how this is just another step forward for a school with a special divine mission.

I get this. But the PAC-12 country billboard at point of the mountain still makes me chuckle. Just because the conference is the emphasis and the Utes seem to be an afterthought.

[FountainOfUte]

...I am sensitive to how life looks to them right now.

That's the funny part. The Y fans in my family paint a pretty rosy picture of Y athletics. I can't tell if they're sandbagging or if it's sincere, but I think it's the latter. I have a friend or two who are a little more realistic if you can find them in a candid moment.

[FMCoug]

That's the funny part. The Y fans in my family paint a pretty rosy picture of Y athletics. I can't tell if they're sandbagging or if it's sincere, but I think it's the latter. I have a friend or two who are a little more realistic if you can find them in a candid moment.

I'm not saying your family members fit this, but you have to throw out the outliers in each fan base who are rabid for / against the other school. We all know some (even on these boards) and there is no having a rational conversation.

[Utah]

I get this. But the PAC-12 country billboard at point of the mountain still makes me chuckle. Just because the conference is the emphasis and the Utes seem to be an afterthought.

Stuff like this makes me chuckle. You mock Utah fan for being proud of conference affiliation, but if I remember correctly, Harmon and Wrubell and each one of you "Y" fans went on and an about how great Independence was, the money you were getting from ESPN, the HD truck, ESPN's partner (even though ESPN signed a better deal with the PAC-12), blah, blah, blah.

Once reality set in, and you realized that your schedule has been worse than in the MWC, the money wasn't much better, no one cared about your truck, etc, you fell back on "Ute fans just love the PAC-12" smack talk.

Weak.

Just remember, the worst stretch of Utah basketball in decades took you to the wire this year. Remember that your great football team lost to a Utah team with no John White and a DII QB.

Enjoy your weak PAC-12 smack talk (which you would trade places with Utah in a heartbeat and put PAC-12 logos all over your billboards if you had the chance), and bowl game smack talk, because your football program is weak and will be exposed this next year when you actually play more than 3 real teams.

Good luck.

[Utah]

http://planetbyu.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/byu-wcc.jpg

[FMCoug]

Stuff like this makes me chuckle. You mock Utah fan for being proud of conference affiliation, but if I remember correctly, Harmon and Wrubell and each one of you "Y" fans went on and an about how great Independence was, the money you were getting from ESPN, the HD truck, ESPN's partner (even though ESPN signed a better deal with the PAC-12), blah, blah, blah.

Once reality set in, and you realized that your schedule has been worse than in the MWC, the money wasn't much better, no one cared about your truck, etc, you fell back on "Ute fans just love the PAC-12" smack talk.

Weak.

Just remember, the worst stretch of Utah basketball in decades took you to the wire this year. Remember that your great football team lost to a Utah team with no John White and a DII QB.

Enjoy your weak PAC-12 smack talk (which you would trade places with Utah in a heartbeat and put PAC-12 logos all over your billboards if you had the chance), and bowl game smack talk, because your football program is weak and will be exposed this next year when you actually play more than 3 real teams.

Good luck.

I find it amazing that you have been able to track EVERY BYU fan and their attitudes and comments about this. That is truly incredible. Would you mind posting your data collection methodology? Hyperbole like this makes you look uneducated at best, stupid at worst. It certainly makes me discount anything else you say.

Those who know me know I'm not a smack talker ... in fact I hardly post about sports at all. All I said was that it made me chuckle a bit.

Also, I have spent most of my life in PAC-12 or BIG-12 country. I have never known any member of those conferences besides the U make such a big deal out of conference membership. That's why it makes me chuckle.

[Rocker Ute]

Also, I have spent most of my life in PAC-12 or BIG-12 country. I have never known any member of those conferences besides the U make such a big deal out of conference membership. That's why it makes me chuckle.

As someone who owns exactly zero PAC-12 gear I think I can ask this question: How many of these schools jumped from a mid-major to a BCS conference while you were there?

I'll admit it, we splash the PAC-12 logo more than we should on things, but who wouldn't be excited? Its kind of like hanging your high school graduation tassel from your rear view mirror until you arrive at college.

In the meantime, when your school is filled with RMs who seriously wear soccer kits from their respective missions in public, still ask girls to dances by leaving cute messages on their doorsteps, and has a large population of tunnel singers, it gets kind of hard to talk about any sort of gear goofiness. In short, we chuckle the same way about you.

[Utah]

I find it amazing that you have been able to track EVERY BYU fan and their attitudes and comments about this. That is truly incredible. Would you mind posting your data collection methodology? Hyperbole like this makes you look uneducated at best, stupid at worst. It certainly makes me discount anything else you say.

Those who know me know I'm not a smack talker ... in fact I hardly post about sports at all. All I said was that it made me chuckle a bit.

Also, I have spent most of my life in PAC-12 or BIG-12 country. I have never known any member of those conferences besides the U make such a big deal out of conference membership. That's why it makes me chuckle.

So, you never once bragged about the glories of Independence? Remember, it's Sunday, The Lord's day.

p.s. what were your methodologies that allowed you to make the bolded statement?

Huh. If BCS teams NEVER make a big deal out of conference membership, why are there BCS bowl games? Why do they track conference strength? Why does ESPN make a big deal out of which conference is the best in the nation (by the way, the PAC-12 is the second best conference in the nation)?

[Utah]

I find it amazing that you have been able to track EVERY BYU fan and their attitudes and comments about this. That is truly incredible. Would you mind posting your data collection methodology? Hyperbole like this makes you look uneducated at best, stupid at worst. It certainly makes me discount anything else you say.

Those who know me know I'm not a smack talker ... in fact I hardly post about sports at all. All I said was that it made me chuckle a bit.

Also, I have spent most of my life in PAC-12 or BIG-12 country. I have never known any member of those conferences besides the U make such a big deal out of conference membership. That's why it makes me chuckle.

One more thing. Please show me once where made a personal insult to you? This is a fun message board, with fun banter, and the best you can up with is personal insults?

Good job. I even tossed you a softball by bringing up Utah basketball, but you missed that.

Is "hyperbole" on your daily word calendar? Ha ha.

The ironic thing is, you throw out personal insults towards me about being dumb for making a generalized statement about BYU fans and Independence, yet you turn around do the same thing about PAC-12 and Big-12 fans.

Usually the first insult people toss out are the insults they themselves are the most insecure about (for example, the business man that runs around calling everyone slimy business person is usually an unethical business person, or the doctor that always bags on other doctor is usually the worst doctor).

But, good for you. I hope you felt better about yourself and they way you represented the Lord's University.

Yeah, the B1G 10 never touts their conference:

http://www.footballfanatics.com/COLLEGE_Big_Ten_Gear_T-Shirts/Big_Ten_Network_White_T-shirt

http://www.footballfanatics.com/COLLEGE_Big_Ten_Gear_T-Shirts/Big_Ten_Conference_Toddler_Huddle_Up_T-Shirt_-_White

http://www.footballfanatics.com/COLLEGE_Big_Ten_Gear_T-Shirts/Big_Ten_Conference_Logo_T-Shirt_-_White

http://www.footballfanatics.com/COLLEGE_Big_Ten_Gear_T-Shirts/Big_Ten_White_Helmet_Circle_T-shirt

http://www.footballfanatics.com/COLLEGE_Big_Ten_Gear_T-Shirts/Big_Ten_Gear_Property_Of_T-Shirt_-_Ash

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=nebraska+big+10+tshirt&hl=en&client=safari&sa=X&rls=en&biw=1210&bih=723&tbm=isch&tbnid=wWF_6GBo888sLM:&imgrefurl=http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nebraska-Cornhuskers-Big-10-Conference-Red-t-shirt-/200655941937&docid=3fMMldTIVwVTqM&itg=1&imgurl=http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Nebraska-Cornhuskers-Big-10-Conference-Red-t-shirt-/00/s/MTEwMFg5NzA%253D/%2524(KGrHqN,!iEE5dF3)yd1BOe59l!9Rw~~60_35.JPG&w=264&h=300&ei=NHAzUdyFCIGQiQKWoIDYBw&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:10,s:0,i:113&iact=rc&dur=423&sig=110262551672639298101&page=1&tbnh=165&tbnw=146&start=0&ndsp=16&tx=81&ty=88

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=nebraska+big+10+tshirt&hl=en&client=safari&sa=X&rls=en&biw=1210&bih=723&tbm=isch&tbnid=RjM96Y2JtahC-M:&imgrefurl=http://www.fansedge.com/Nebraska-Cornhuskers-T-Shirts-_1924069537_PG.html&docid=ahwXGTHNcV88lM&imgurl=http://c-product.images.fansedge.com/52-01/52-01684-J.jpg&w=182&h=200&ei=NHAzUdyFCIGQiQKWoIDYBw&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:24,s:0,i:163&iact=rc&dur=543&sig=110262551672639298101&page=2&tbnh=160&tbnw=145&start=16&ndsp=20&tx=65&ty=97

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=nebraska+big+10+tshirt&hl=en&client=safari&sa=X&rls=en&biw=1210&bih=723&tbm=isch&tbnid=dSw6uWm2bLpLmM:&imgrefurl=http://www.pic2fly.com/Nebraska%2BBig%2B10%2BT%2BShirt.html&docid=CyHdJ7P7srDWTM&itg=1&imgurl=http://dugouthats.com/shop/product_thumb.php%253Fimg%253D./images/ne%252520BIG.jpg%2526w%253D250%2526h%253D230&w=250&h=230&ei=NHAzUdyFCIGQiQKWoIDYBw&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:22,s:0,i:157&iact=rc&dur=597&sig=110262551672639298101&page=2&tbnh=184&tbnw=200&start=16&ndsp=20&tx=72&ty=66

[Viking]

Well this is going as scripted.

i think the BYU of my youth was an outlier. Lavell was truly special and those days are past.

BYU is a utility and a poorly managed one at that. There are pockets of greatness but it is a generally mediocre place. We are seeing the gradual mean reversion back to reality.

that said, it has an incredible brand and following and utes must acknowledge that BYU has a superior brand value at present. Whether the school will capitalize on this before it erodes is to be seen. I believe they will and BYU will be a football member of the PAC14/16 by the time super conferences arrive in a year or two.

I know little of Utah but Dr. Hill seems like an exceptional manager and Utah should feel lucky to have him.

I am happy for Utah and their success.

[Solon]

Well this is going as scripted.

i think the BYU of my youth was an outlier. Lavell was truly special and those days are past.

BYU is a utility and a poorly managed one at that. There are pockets of greatness but it is a generally mediocre place. We are seeing the gradual mean reversion back to reality.

that said, it has an incredible brand and following and utes must acknowledge that BYU has a superior brand value at present. Whether the school will capitalize on this before it erodes is to be seen. I believe they will and BYU will be a football member of the PAC14/16 by the time super conferences arrive in a year or two.

I know little of Utah but Dr. Hill seems like an exceptional manager and Utah should feel lucky to have him.

I am happy for Utah and their success.

I think there's validity to the idea that the byu is deliberately scaling back its involvement in the escalating arms-race of college sports. I think the LDS church considers the byu football team to be an important rallying point for the believers all over the country, hence the attractiveness of independent scheduling. I also think the move to the WCC, in many ways a smaller-profile conference than the MWC, shows a shift away from the normal obsession with growing athletic prestige.

Dare we suggest that the byu is doing the right thing for a private university with a more-than-secular mission by focusing on things other than athletics? The track-record is there (cancelation of athletics at Ricks College / BYU-Idaho). I believe that, in a generation or two, the byu football team will be in FCS or D-3.

[LA Ute]

Dare we suggest that the byu is doing the right thing for a private university with a more-than-secular mission by focusing on things other than athletics? The track-record is there (cancelation of athletics at Ricks College / BYU-Idaho). I believe that, in a generation or two, the byu football team will be in FCS or D-3.

I think that's the direction they're going, but I suspect they'll stop short of FCS or lower. They may strive to be like Air Force or the other service academies: standing for something important and trying hard to be competitive, but accepting that they'll probably never be top-notch. That will take many people outside the BYU Board of Trustees a long time to accept.

[Tacoma Ute]

Shifting to basketball---can you imagine if BYU had stayed in the MWC. Their strength of schedule would be stellar this year. New Mexico is #2 in the RPI.They wouldn't need all that many wins with a SOS like that to get into the tourney.

[kccougar]

i think that's the direction they're going, but i suspect they'll stop short of fcs or lower. They may strive to be like air force or the other service academies: Standing for something important and trying hard to be competitive, but accepting that they'll probably never be top-notch. That will take many people outside the byu board of trustees a long time to accept.

lol.

[LA Ute]

lol.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think the BOT sees BYU football (or basketball) the way most ardent BYU fans do. Time will tell.

[FMCoug]

Not a smack talker but willing to call someone here "uneducated" and "stupid".


I did not say that. I said generalizations like HE made makes him look that way. I have no reason to believe he is either of those. Nor am I, so I appreciate when people point things like this out to me.



I spent 10 years in SEC country, and teams there make a very big deal out of their conference membership.


That may very well be true. I haven't lived there so can't speak to it.



As for the initial question - of course it's hard on BYU fans to see Utah win BCS games. The BCS was a horrible system that was even worse for them because it benefitted us. I feel the same way about 1984. That was a horrible way to crown a national champion - one of the silliest results in college football history. But I'm pretty sure I would have minded a lot less had it benefitted some other scrub instead of BYU.

Great analogy.


As someone who owns exactly zero PAC-12 gear I think I can ask this question: How many of these schools jumped from a mid-major to a BCS conference while you were there?

Fair point.



I'll admit it, we splash the PAC-12 logo more than we should on things, but who wouldn't be excited? Its kind of like hanging your high school graduation tassel from your rear view mirror until you arrive at college.

Yeah I thought that was lame and laughed at people who did it too. :)



So, you never once bragged about the glories of Independence? Remember, it's Sunday, The Lord's day.


Nope. I (and many of the Cougar fans I know) have approached it with trepidation and a "time will tell" attitude. I am sure there are those like you describe but they are the outliers in my experience.



p.s. what were your methodologies that allowed you to make the bolded statement?

Huh. If BCS teams NEVER make a big deal out of conference membership, why are there BCS bowl games? Why do they track conference strength? Why does ESPN make a big deal out of which conference is the best in the nation (by the way, the PAC-12 is the second best conference in the nation)?

My statement was based on my own observations and experience. I did not make a generalization and say they NEVER make a big deal out of it. There is no way I could know that.


One more thing. Please show me once where made a personal insult to you? This is a fun message board, with fun banter, and the best you can up with is personal insults?


My intent was not to insult you. As I pointed out above, I said your statement makes you look a certain way, not that you are that way.



Good job. I even tossed you a softball by bringing up Utah basketball, but you missed that.


Like I said, I am not really into smack talk. I was when I was younger but seem to have moved past it.



Is "hyperbole" on your daily word calendar? Ha ha.

I don't have such a thing. Sorry if it confused you.



The ironic thing is, you throw out personal insults towards me about being dumb for making a generalized statement about BYU fans and Independence, yet you turn around do the same thing about PAC-12 and Big-12 fans.


No I didn't. Read my posts more carefully.



But, good for you. I hope you felt better about yourself and they way you represented the Lord's University.


Again, my intent was not to give offense.



Yeah, the B1G 10 never touts their conference:


Again, I didn't say that. I said I hadn't observed it.

It seems like what is happening here is a clash between the drive by posting style of boards like UFN or CB and that of this board's parent, CUF (I only say that because the founders came from there, it is not meant as a slight in any way).

Posts on CUF tended to be much more thoughtful, precise, and verbose than what is typical for those other boards. It is my belief that this is what Jarid and company are trying to create here.

And don't feel like this is a Ute/Cougar thing. Read posts from guys like LA Ute, UtahDan, etc. and you will see what I mean.

Peace.





I think there's validity to the idea that the byu is deliberately scaling back its involvement in the escalating arms-race of college sports. I think the LDS church considers the byu football team to be an important rallying point for the believers all over the country, hence the attractiveness of independent scheduling. I also think the move to the WCC, in many ways a smaller-profile conference than the MWC, shows a shift away from the normal obsession with growing athletic prestige.

Dare we suggest that the byu is doing the right thing for a private university with a more-than-secular mission by focusing on things other than athletics? The track-record is there (cancelation of athletics at Ricks College / BYU-Idaho). I believe that, in a generation or two, the byu football team will be in FCS or D-3.


I think that's the direction they're going, but I suspect they'll stop short of FCS or lower. They may strive to be like Air Force or the other service academies: standing for something important and trying hard to be competitive, but accepting that they'll probably never be top-notch. That will take many people outside the BYU Board of Trustees a long time to accept.

It pains me to say it but you may be right. And honestly, I am becoming a much more lukewarm fan as a result.

Who knows, maybe some day my moniker here will be FMUte. :)

[CardiacCoug]

Shifting to basketball---can you imagine if BYU had stayed in the MWC. Their strength of schedule would be stellar this year. New Mexico is #2 in the RPI.They wouldn't need all that many wins with a SOS like that to get into the tourney.

Yep.

Joe Lunardi even has Boise State in the tourney now and maybe BYU could have had that spot.

That said this is a very short-handed BYU team -- injuries to Chris Collinsworth and Stephen Rogers really hurt. For hell's sake we've got a defensive lineman getting significant minutes so this is definitely a down year for us. Just glad it's not a down decade like you guys are having.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Who knows, maybe some day my moniker here will be FMUte. :)[/QUOTE]

I will reserve this for you.

Also, I will second that FM is a good guy.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Yep.

Joe Lunardi even has Boise State in the tourney now and maybe BYU could have had that spot.

That said this is a very short-handed BYU team -- injuries to Chris Collinsworth and Stephen Rogers really hurt. For hell's sake we've got a defensive lineman getting significant minutes so this is definitely a down year for us. Just glad it's not a down decade like you guys are having.

Yuck it up while you can, myocardium boy ;).

[LA Ute]

Yep.


Joe Lunardi even has Boise State in the tourney now and maybe BYU could have had that spot.


That said this is a very short-handed BYU team -- injuries to Chris Collinsworth and Stephen Rogers really hurt. For hell's sake we've got a defensive lineman getting significant minutes so this is definitely a down year for us. Just glad it's not a down decade like you guys are having.


We still call it a bad half-decade. It's not an easy case to make, but we work with what we have. :cry:




Who knows, maybe some day my moniker here will be FMUte. :)

I will reserve this for you.

Also, I will second that FM is a good guy.

This is true. Sports smack is rare from FM. I'd even say it's a second or third language for him. ;) Just don't get him started on Cafe Rio.

[Viking]

Yep.

Joe Lunardi even has Boise State in the tourney now and maybe BYU could have had that spot.

That said this is a very short-handed BYU team -- injuries to Chris Collinsworth and Stephen Rogers really hurt. For hell's sake we've got a defensive lineman getting significant minutes so this is definitely a down year for us. Just glad it's not a down decade like you guys are having.

It's been a bear market in BYU athletics since Jimmer lost to Florida.

I haven't been to a BYU home football game since 2007, which shocks me as I write. I haven't been to a hoops game since 2008.

I spent three years at BYU before graduating in the mid-90s and never missed a single home basketball game, even exhibitions, and wouldn't have dreamed of missing a home football game (and attended most bowl games through the LV 2007 game).

Solon's conclusion feels like that's where we are heading, though I think we have a bit of a miraculous comeback in the cards by 2015.

There can be no doubt that independence+WCC has been a massive error in judgement.

[Solon]

It pains me to say it but you may be right. And honestly, I am becoming a much more lukewarm fan as a result.

Who knows, maybe some day my moniker here will be FMUte. :)

There are other options. You can be FM Aggie and I'll take FM T-Bird.
FM's a good guy. I hope the smack-talk simmers down to a respectable boil.

[sharpone]

Nope. I (and many of the Cougar fans I know) have approached it with trepidation and a "time will tell" attitude. I am sure there are those like you describe but they are the outliers in my experience.

As a Ute fan with many Coug relatives, this has been my experience. In fact I would say most of them were frankly disappointed by it. My grandfather who has been a CC member in donor seats for many years complains pretty loudly about the terrible November schedule. It's kind of sad honestly. For someone who was a donor for all the BYU glory years, to watch it fall as far as it has. I find myself trying to console them a bit with a "schedules will get better with time" and "let's see how it pans out" comment here and there, even if I don't necessarily know that schedules will improve.

Right now is a great time to be a Utah fan, even if I have to temper my enthusiasm a bit around my BYU family members because of how they are feeling. I feel like the future is bright and the ceiling is very high although the competition is stiff. I imagine as generations go on, Utah will garner more and more interest in the state, that trend seems to already have begun.

As far as PAC12 stickers/symbols, I think it's kind of lame and don't own any gear with that on it. I'm definitely happy that's where Utah is competing now, but it seems like some of the gear is definitively aimed at rubbing a little salt in the wounds of our rivals to the south. Judging by the many tirades I've read over on CB about it, the salt rubbing seems to be working as intended. I'm fine with those who choose to rub it in - that's their choice - but it's just not my style, so I won't buy that gear. Besides, my BIL from Oregon, who is a huge Ducks fan would probably have a pretty good laugh at my expense if I were caught wearing it. I'm betting the PAC12 symbol will fade from prominence on Utah gear before too long.


Who knows, maybe some day my moniker here will be FMUte. :)

That would be a welcome change in my book :)

[Viking]

As far as PAC12 stickers/symbols, I think it's kind of lame and don't own any gear with that on it. I'm definitely happy that's where Utah is competing now, but it seems like some of the gear is definitively aimed at rubbing a little salt in the wounds of our rivals to the south. Judging by the many tirades I've read over on CB about it, the salt rubbing seems to be working as intended. I'm fine with those who choose to rub it in - that's their choice - but it's just not my style, so I won't buy that gear. Besides, my BIL from Oregon, who is a huge Ducks fan would probably have a pretty good laugh at my expense if I were caught wearing it. I'm betting the PAC12 symbol will fade from prominence on Utah gear before too long.



That would be a welcome change in my book :)

Utah fans should absolutely endorse the Pac12 stuff. It's the greatest "in your face" to a BYU fan, ever. Forget, "scoreboard" or "1984" or "BCS"...Pac12 logos say: "you didn't get in." Karmic justice, I guess.

Complaining BYU fans are simply hurt inside.

[Solon]

Utah fans should absolutely endorse the Pac12 stuff. It's the greatest "in your face" to a BYU fan, ever. Forget, "scoreboard" or "1984" or "BCS"...Pac12 logos say: "you didn't get in." Karmic justice, I guess.

Complaining BYU fans are simply hurt inside.

Viking, it's not too late. Become one of us.

[Viking]

Viking, it's not too late. Become one of us.

Well, I am a Kingsbury after all. But I grew up in Texas and bleed burnt orange. I really don't have a reason to cheer for Utah and have no emotional connection to the school. As a BYU fan in the old WAC, I always wanted to beat AFA more than Utah.

I really loved Majerus and cheered for the great Utah hoops teams. Have never really been able to dig Utah football...Meyer felt too transparent and while Whit is a far better coach than the Horseman, he lost my respect during the BYU coaching process and now I just feel disdain for the guy.

[USS Utah]

while Whit is a far better coach than the Horseman, he lost my respect during the BYU coaching process and now I just feel disdain for the guy.

Everyone makes mistakes.

[Hot Lunch]

In the meantime, when your school is filled with RMs who seriously wear soccer kits from their respective missions in public, still ask girls to dances by leaving cute messages on their doorsteps, and has a large population of tunnel singers, it gets kind of hard to talk about any sort of gear goofiness. In short, we chuckle the same way about you.

LOL. This one made me laugh.

Oh, and FM is a good dude. He also smokes a mean brisket that will make your mouth water.

[FMCoug]

LOL. This one made me laugh.

Oh, and FM is a good dude. He also smokes a mean brisket that will make your mouth water.

It made me laugh too. I can't say I am completely disappointed that many daughter didn't get accepted to BYU. It is a pretty weird place these days ... much more so than 20 years ago.

[USS Utah]

It made me laugh too. I can't say I am completely disappointed that many daughter didn't get accepted to BYU. It is a pretty weird place these days ... much more so than 20 years ago.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfGpVcdqeS0

[FMCoug]

I have no idea who Collinsworth and Rogers are. Maybe they would have made a difference. But really, what seems to happen is that BYU's stars just don't get it done against quality competition. Haws had a great line vs Gonzaga last week - lots of points - but he completely disappeared in that game when it really mattered.

It's possible that BYU makes the tournament from the MWC - they would have had more chances. But it's also possible they go 0-10 vs Boise, UNM, CSU, UNLV, and SDSU. One plus for BYU in the WCC - they just have to get lucky once or twice to get an automatic bid. In a tough conference, it would be a near impossibility.

It's pretty clear you are one of the irrational fans that exist on both sides of this rivalry that just don't get it and can't speak intelligently about either team at all. You don't know who those players are yet you seem to be wiling to pontificate about what-ifs for BYU. For the record, I know jack about Utah's players and you won't find any posts from me about it.


I'm sure, though I'll never understand what drives people to post on rivals' message boards. I tried it for a while on Cougarboard.com and realized that nothing good comes of it.

The fact that you bring up Cougarboard as an example speaks volumes. I think you might be happier on UFN. UFN is to Cougarboard as UB5 is to CougarStadium (formerly CUF). Totally different format, discussion, type of posts, etc.




I don't think it ever even warmed up to a simmer. We had, what, one use of the word stupid that was quickly retracted?

Nobody ever called anybody stupid and nobody retracted anything. You might want to work on your reading comprehension.

[wuapinmon]

I'm not worried about BCS and all that. I like this year's schedule.

http://www.fbschedules.com/ncaa-13/mtn-west/2013-byu-cougars-football-schedule.php

Utah's in the PAC-12. Cool. That's a huge deal and honestly I'm happy for yall. BYU is independent. I like winning more than I like our chances of ever getting a national championship. We're all gonna get the shit kicked out of us by the SEC anyway (prior results should not be viewed as predictors of future performance).

For the record, I attended Georgia Tech, BYU, and Tulane during my college career (1995-2007). I don't have a lot to choose from football-wise.

[Redbird]

Utah fans should absolutely endorse the Pac12 stuff. It's the greatest "in your face" to a BYU fan, ever. Forget, "scoreboard" or "1984" or "BCS"...Pac12 logos say: "you didn't get in." Karmic justice, I guess.

Complaining BYU fans are simply hurt inside.

Sorry, but my "PAC-12 Pride" (at least expressed sincerely) died as soon as we lost at USC in 2011. I'm a Utah fan, and while the PAC-12 is better for Utah than the MWC, it's no consolation for us getting our asses kicked.

[Redbird]

I'm sure, though I'll never understand what drives people to post on rivals' message boards. I tried it for a while on Cougarboard.com and realized that nothing good comes of it.

FM is a valuable contributor that has established relationships with many Ute fans on a variety of boards. He's also one hell of a cook.

[LA Ute]

I'm sure, though I'll never understand what drives people to post on rivals' message boards. I tried it for a while on Cougarboard.com and realized that nothing good comes of it.

People who have posted on the board once known as CougarUte Forum are used to being on the same boards as their rivals. FM is no crazy BYU fan, and I don't even think he cares about sports much. He just ventured over here with some comments and observations. I recommend we all cut him a little slack. IMO, if someone's a good egg, we want him posting here. And FM, despite his irrational hatred of fine Mo-Mex food, is a good egg.

As for sancho, I always read your posts, which are full of information and interesting insights. Sometimes you have the bad judgment to see something differently than I do, but you have lots of company in that. ;)

[LA Ute]

Sorry, but my "PAC-12 Pride" (at least expressed sincerely) died as soon as we lost at USC in 2011. I'm a Utah fan, and while the PAC-12 is better for Utah than the MWC, it's no consolation for us getting our asses kicked.

True, it's terrific to be in the conference but we've seen confirmed what we always knew in our hearts: We have a ways to go to be competitive in this league, in either football or hoops.

[Redbird]

As far as UF/CB/CUF/UB5 - they are not as different as you think. Formats differ, fans are mostly the same.

There is crossover, but the atmosphere fostered by CB/ufn and CUF/CS/UB5 is different.

[Virginia Ute]

What is Mo-Mex? I tried to Google it and found a Momex corporation anda bunch of Taco Bell sites.

Cafe Rio. Delicious coke soaked pork.

[USS Utah]

As far as UF/CB/CUF/UB5 - they are not as different as you think. Formats differ, fans are mostly the same.

I can see why BYU fans would not like UF.N, probably viewing it the same why I view CB.

However, I never understood why CUF was supposed to be so much better than UF.N -- for Ute fans, anyway. Mind you, I never felt like I fit in at CUF.

[LA Ute]

I can see why BYU fans would not like UF.N, probably viewing it the same why I view CB.

However, I never understood why CUF was supposed to be so much better than UF.N -- for Ute fans, anyway. Mind you, I never felt like I fit in at CUF.

I know you didn't. It was never easy for a Ute fan to fit in there. That's one reason this board exists. Not the main reason, but one of them.

[LA Ute]

What is Mo-Mex? I tried to Google it and found a Momex corporation and a bunch of Taco Bell sites.

It's the Utah version of Tex-Mex. I made that word up myself. Very proud of it, thank you very much.

[FMCoug]

It's the Utah version of Tex-Mex. I made that word up myself. Very proud of it, thank you very much.

I call it Utah-Mex. But I kind of like your term better. My kids call that place Dia Rio ... :)

[Clark Addison]

As a Ute fan with many Coug relatives, this has been my experience. In fact I would say most of them were frankly disappointed by it. My grandfather who has been a CC member in donor seats for many years complains pretty loudly about the terrible November schedule. It's kind of sad honestly.

Cool. I didn't know any of BYU71's grandkids were active on the boards.

[U-Ute]

I can see why BYU fans would not like UF.N, probably viewing it the same why I view CB.

However, I never understood why CUF was supposed to be so much better than UF.N -- for Ute fans, anyway. Mind you, I never felt like I fit in at CUF.

See (http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthread.php?63373-I-Pledge!-to-be-a-servant-to-JeffLebowski!-Animated-gif-edition&p=954724&viewfull=1#post954724)item #2.

[SoCalCoug]

Sorry, but I skipped over some of the arguing that's gone on, because as a BYU fan, I want to address the original question.

It is far worse that Utah went to BCS games than TCU, Boise, or any other school. It kills me that Utah had that little period of time a few years ago where they were getting the national acclaim that BYU fans covet so badly.

Further, Utah going to the Pac-12 is a slap in the face as far as I'm concerned. We've been coveting a major conference berth for decades. Even though our eyes have been on the Big 12 since its inception, and while it's really not surprising (to intelligent people) that the Pac 12 went with Utah over BYU, that doesn't make it sting any less.

Independence is the best alternative reasonably available to BYU right not. I'm not as down on the WCC - mostly because my emotions aren't as tied into basketball as they are into football. I'm someone who likes variety, and so I love the future football schedules - a lot of different teams each year. I would love BYU to go to either the Pac-12 or the Big 12, but neither look imminent right now. So I think indpendence/WCC is the best alternative available.

But football's going to have a bad taste in my mouth until BYU beats Utah, and until BYU finally makes a BCS game.