I learned in Church today

[FMCoug]

Let's get this sucker started here. For those not aware, this is another great old CUF thread. Mostly used to poke fun at things (i.e. crazy apocryphal stories, leaders drunk on power and doing dumb things, etc.) but with some occasional nuggets of good stuff in there too. Since it's open mic sunday tomorrow we should be able to get started off right!

Stuff from other churches (i.e. not Mormon) are of course welcome too.

[Utah]

Well, since I am going to church for the first time in about 5 weeks tomorrow, I'll pay extra attention.

[Utah]

So far - it's now cool to wear a BYU tie and drop lines from songs during/in a baby blessing.

2 - it's acceptable to nurse a baby while bearing your testimony.

[Utah]

I might not have the best kids in the world, but I definitely don't have the worst.

[FMCoug]

Finally got one. We are hearing a testimony of the Lone Peak basketball team and their national exposure as a missionary tool.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I might not have the best kids in the world, but I definitely don't have the worst.

I'm in te clubhouse with a 40 stroke lead, that green jacket is mine.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

Sweet. Glad to see this thread make it's way over.

During missionary correlation this morning the stake mission president slipped a comment in that I can only hope was just unfortunate wording. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I'm still going to bring it here for your enjoyment.

"He's Hispanic, but other than that, a total stand up guy."

During the third hour, the EQ lesson was introduced as a sensiive topic which triggered my pornography alarm, but turned out that it was about finding balance between tolerance and taking moral stands. I waited the whole meeting expecting some great crazy comments but none came.

Apparently all the crazy comments were reserved for relief society. My wife reported that in the middle of the lesson one of the sister interrupted with, "Let's be honest here. We're talking about gay marriage. The gays think that Prop. 8 was about the LDS church being hateful, but I can't think of a more out pouring of love than Prop. 8!"

[macktruck32]

Year to Date record in my ward for most participants in a baby blessing: 15

[Woody]

We have a real interesting lady in our ward. She claimed that she and her husband were walking one day in the forest and saw a squirrel with both of its back legs broken. She told her husband to go heal the squirrel and wouldn't you know, the squirrel got up and ran away into the woods after the laying on of hands. Not certain if the squirrel thanked them afterwards.

This is the same lady that 15 months ago, compared Santa to Satan in front of the congregation and outed Santa Claus in front of lots of young kids. This lady is real interesting person to put in mildly.

[Rocker Ute]

We have a real interesting lady in our ward. She claimed that she and her husband were walking one day in the forest and saw a squirrel with both of its back legs broken. She told her husband to go heal the squirrel and wouldn't you know, the squirrel got up and ran away into the woods after the laying on of hands. Not certain if the squirrel thanked them afterwards.

This is the same lady that 15 months ago, compared Santa to Satan in front of the congregation and outed Santa Claus in front of lots of young kids. This lady is real interesting person to put in mildly.

We had someone out Santa in church this last year. Thankfully there wasn't a kid in the congregation paying an ounce of attention, but the uncomfortable shifting going on by adults with Santa-aged children was priceless.

[wuapinmon]

Sweet. Glad to see this thread make it's way over.

During missionary correlation this morning the stake mission president slipped a comment in that I can only hope was just unfortunate wording. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I'm still going to bring it here for your enjoyment.

"He's Hispanic, but other than that, a total stand up guy."

During the third hour, the EQ lesson was introduced as a sensiive topic which triggered my pornography alarm, but turned out that it was about finding balance between tolerance and taking moral stands. I waited the whole meeting expecting some great crazy comments but none came.

Apparently all the crazy comments were reserved for relief society. My wife reported that in the middle of the lesson one of the sister interrupted with, "Let's be honest here. We're talking about gay marriage. The gays think that Prop. 8 was about the LDS church being hateful, but I can't think of a more out pouring of love than Prop. 8!"

Good Lord! It's a good thing I wasn't there. "WTF DOES THAT MEAN?" One thing I always scratched my head about was missionaries in the mission in Costa Rica making comments about "Mexicans." Being from Georgia, and a convert, I had tons to learn about Utah culture. After living there, I understand it, and it was probably an innocuous comment by someone who has never thought about racism in a meaningful way. But, my reaction would've jumpstarted that conversation.

[utebehindenemylines]

Good Lord! It's a good thing I wasn't there. "WTF DOES THAT MEAN?" One thing I always scratched my head about was missionaries in the mission in Costa Rica making comments about "Mexicans." Being from Georgia, and a convert, I had tons to learn about Utah culture. After living there, I understand it, and it was probably an innocuous comment by someone who has never thought about racism in a meaningful way. But, my reaction would've jumpstarted that conversation.My family came to get me in Argentina. They still don't understand why I got so upset at them when they referred to the people there as Mexicans. I had to explain to them that most of the people there had more in common with Italians and Germans than they did Mexicans.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

One thing I always scratched my head about was missionaries in the mission in Costa Rica making comments about "Mexicans." Being from Georgia, and a convert, I had tons to learn about Utah culture. After living there, I understand it,

When you think about racist places, Georgia ranks very low and Utah very high. At least in terms of Hispanic racism. I am sure the Georgians (all Southerners really) that have historically treated African-Americans with such love and respect extend that to people of Latino decent. I had never looked at it like that before.

The strange thing is that I've actually heard disparaging comments about Hispanics here in Oregon, from non-LDS people. So you might want to warn the South that Utah's vile racism will infect that great area of love and tolerance no matter how many mobs rage or armies assemble.

[Utah]

Two things:

1- I must have missed the Sunday when it was stressed that the optimal place to stop and strike up a conversation is in the doorway of the busiest door in the building.

2- It is a greater sin to sit on the back row than to break the Word of Wisdom (obesity).

[LA Ute]

I learned that in the hands of the right pianist and arranger, and with the right vocalist, even the most familiar church hymn can be sublime. In this case it was "Joseph Smith's First Prayer."

[Randal Graves]

I learned that the first church meetings in the log cabin must have been just like "the circus where they cram 56 Mexican's into a VW bug."

[Mormon Red Death]

I learned that the prophets give us stupid rules to see if wwe will be obedient. If you get rid of your two sets of earrings it shows that you are obedient.

"Sometimes god gives rules with no purpose only to see if we will obedient"



Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

[San Diego Ute Fan]

I noticed in church that the byu people and the Oregon people were very, very quiet today. Does anyone have an idea as to why this was so?

[Moliere]

I noticed in church that the byu people and the Oregon people were very, very quiet today. Does anyone have an idea as to why this was so?

It was because I had a headache.

[UBlender]

I learned that the whole "mission farewell" scene may be the most eternal thing about the church. Still a lot of kids showing up making the meeting something it's not supposed to be, including boys being a little too rowdy for the meeting and girls who are dressed a little not quite right for church in one last attempt to catch the outgoing missionary's eye. Still people making the "oops, we made too many treats and need people to come over and help us eat them after the meeting" joke. Still one of the most spiritual and heartfelt meetings in the church, even with all the accompanying cheesiness.

[Sullyute]

We had friends up from Vegas who wanted to see the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. I had never been to a live broadcast before and we had a very good time. It was great to hear some wonderful music, a short spiritual message, and then have the rest of the day to relax.

[Rocker Ute]

We had friends up from Vegas who wanted to see the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. I had never been to a live broadcast before and we had a very good time. It was great to hear some wonderful music, a short spiritual message, and then have the rest of the day to relax.

Funny you should mention that. We also had some friends up and they wanted to go see MoTab. We couldn't go with them, but apparently they arrived one minute after it started and the usher wouldn't let them in.

They explained they had travelled a long way, so he finally agreed to let them into a room but were told they wouldn't have anywhere to sit, but could watch through a window.

So he goes to a steel door, swipes a card to unlock it and he puts them in the room and the door locks behind them. Apparently it was a concrete room with a window overlooking things.

They couldn't leave until he came back to get them, and one of the people who only has heard crazy stuff about Mormons was having some serious anxiety.

So they came back and told me about their story and I said, "Huh, something must have malfunctioned, typically that room fills up with water to the top and then drains and an announcement comes over the PA 'Congratulations, you've just been baptized a Mormon.'"

I then asked them, "So are you interested in learning more?"

They weren't.

[SoCalCoug]

I learned that the prophets give us stupid rules to see if wwe will be obedient. If you get rid of your two sets of earrings it shows that you are obedient.

"Sometimes god gives rules with no purpose only to see if we will obedient"



I'm going to try that with my kids. Should be effective.

[UtahsMrSports]

I had no idea this thread existed! LOVE IT!

On Sunday, I learned (again) that men are inferior to women and that men need to step up.

Our sunday school teacher had her husband leave her and the kids many years ago. I am truly sorry she had to go through that. But give me a break! Every time she teaches Sunday School it turns into "you men need to really be better at............" whatever the topic of the day is, it ALWAYS turns into something she can use to further her anti-men agenda. Look, Im married, I have a small child, I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but you know what? I try. Just like 95% of LDS men. She is the best at derailing her own lessons with her agenda. Often, its just "you men think you are so cool because you have the priesthood!? Well you ARENT! God gave you that Priesthood because women already have things figured out!" ALWAYS talks in blanket statements like that with no caveats that "yeah some women are lousy and some men figure it out" nothing.

Rant over, for now.

[utebehindenemylines]

I had no idea this thread existed! LOVE IT!

On Sunday, I learned (again) that men are inferior to women and that men need to step up.

Our sunday school teacher had her husband leave her and the kids many years ago. I am truly sorry she had to go through that. But give me a break! Every time she teaches Sunday School it turns into "you men need to really be better at............" whatever the topic of the day is, it ALWAYS turns into something she can use to further her anti-men agenda. Look, Im married, I have a small child, I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but you know what? I try. Just like 95% of LDS men. She is the best at derailing her own lessons with her agenda. Often, its just "you men think you are so cool because you have the priesthood!? Well you ARENT! God gave you that Priesthood because women already have things figured out!" ALWAYS talks in blanket statements like that with no caveats that "yeah some women are lousy and some men figure it out" nothing.

Rant over, for now.

Yeah I'd be finding a new class... or my son would suddenly require some assistance in nursery every week.

[LA Ute]

I had no idea this thread existed! LOVE IT!

On Sunday, I learned (again) that men are inferior to women and that men need to step up.

Our sunday school teacher had her husband leave her and the kids many years ago. I am truly sorry she had to go through that. But give me a break! Every time she teaches Sunday School it turns into "you men need to really be better at............" whatever the topic of the day is, it ALWAYS turns into something she can use to further her anti-men agenda. Look, Im married, I have a small child, I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but you know what? I try. Just like 95% of LDS men. She is the best at derailing her own lessons with her agenda. Often, its just "you men think you are so cool because you have the priesthood!? Well you ARENT! God gave you that Priesthood because women already have things figured out!" ALWAYS talks in blanket statements like that with no caveats that "yeah some women are lousy and some men figure it out" nothing.

Rant over, for now.

What? You don't think the SS teacher should be confessing the sins of the class members?

[Sullyute]

My son was assigned to read the opening scripture in sharing time. I whispered the words in his ear as he spoke in the microphone. When it was over, he proceeded to say into the mic "you have bad breath!" I guess he didn't like the watermelon gum I was chewing.

[Rocker Ute]

A 14yo girl was giving a talk about forgiveness and cited the story about the woman taken in adultery and taken to Christ. She was pointing out how the men who brought her were evil and says, "obviously these men were lying. First of all, it takes two people, so where was the man? Secondly, how would you even catch someone in the very act?!"

Lots of amused glances around the congregation, we later agreed her logic was infallible.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I learned the Area 70 President, who sat in my Sunday School class today, was not amused when I substituted a poem by W. H. Auden for a conference talk by Boyd K. Packer.

The fact that Auden stated my point more precisely than Packer ever could is irrelevant.



The More Loving One, by W.H. Auden

Looking king up at the stars, I know quite well
That, for all they care, I can go to hell,
But on earth indifference is the least
We have to dread from man or beast.

How should we like it were stars to burn
With a passion for us we could not return?
If equal affection cannot be,
Let the more loving one be me.

Admirer as I think I am
Of stars that do not give a damn,
I cannot, now I see them, say
I missed one terribly all day.

Were all stars to disappear or die, I should learn to look at an empty sky
And feel its total dark sublime,
Though this might take me a little time.

[LA Ute]

This letter was read in our ward today:

382

In a training session, our stake president added some guidance: "Brief" in this context means 3-5 minutes. Also, regarding children's testimonies, "old enough" means the child is able to come up to the stand by himself/herself, if a pass-around microphone is not being used. No "duets" with parents holding the child or standing by, whispering in the child's ear. Our bishop read the letter, then added the SP's guidance. I loved the whole thing. I guess this has become a problem in the Wasatch Front wards? That's usually what prompts letters like these. But I welcome the help even out here in the hinterland.

[Jeff Lebowski]

This letter was read in our ward today:

In a training session, our stake president added some guidance: "Brief" in this context means 3-5 minutes. Also, regarding children's testimonies, "old enough" means the child is able to come up to the stand by himself/herself, if a pass-around microphone is not being used. No "duets" with parents holding the child or standing by, whispering in the child's ear. Our bishop read the letter, then added the SP's guidance. I loved the whole thing. I guess this has become a problem in the Wasatch Front wards? That's usually what prompts letters like these. But I welcome the help even out here in the hinterland.

I am all for cutting back on testimonies whispered into little kids' ears. That is borderline creepy.

They had a letter just like this a few years ago. It made a difference for a few months and then people went right back to old habits.

[LA Ute]

I don't recall the earlier letter but it doesn't surprise me. Some things never change, I guess, but if they get better for a while I'll take that. The goofy testimony meeting habits are annoying but kind of lovable. If it got to the point in our ward that people who wanted to speak couldn't, though, we'd do something about it.

[Rocker Ute]

I am all for cutting back on testimonies whispered into little kids' ears. That is borderline creepy.

They had a letter just like this a few years ago. It made a difference for a few months and then people went right back to old habits.

So years ago my nearly 90 year old grandfather decided to go out in a flame of glory. Apparently he got up in his ward of 50 years and went on a rant that reportedly included a chiding of parents "who get up during testimony meeting and whisper in their children's ears like they were the Holy Ghost." I believe that was some of the nicer things he said.

My dad got a call from an old friend who told him about the whole thing. A few weeks later he had a stroke and went to a care facility to live out the rest of his years. I've always thought that saying was awesome (despite losing his filter in his older years he really was a very remarkable and accomplished man), and think of it each time I see it. He was right.

[Rocker Ute]

I don't recall the earlier letter but it doesn't surprise me. Some things never change, I guess, but if they get better for a while I'll take that. The goofy testimony meeting habits are annoying but kind of lovable. If it got to the point in our ward that people who wanted to speak couldn't, though, we'd do something about it.

I've wondered if this is more of a younger demographic ward problem. My ward which is a mixed demographic and almost never has that happen. We went to my BIL's ward in Lehi and another BIL in West Jordan and they had a line of people with their children all waiting to do it. It took up 75% of the meeting and was massively irritating.

[LA Ute]

I've wondered if this is more of a younger demographic ward problem. My ward which is a mixed demographic and almost never has that happen. We went to my BIL's ward in Lehi and another BIL in West Jordan and they had a line of people with their children all waiting to do it. It took up 75% of the meeting and was massively irritating.

That explains a lot, I think, if it's happening widely.

[wuapinmon]

What's sad is that I can do this:

Na NA na na na nanaNAna. na na na na na NAAAAA. Na na Na na NANA NA! Na na.

And you all know what it sounds like.

[Sullyute]

This letter was read in our ward today:

382

In a training session, our stake president added some guidance: "Brief" in this context means 3-5 minutes. Also, regarding children's testimonies, "old enough" means the child is able to come up to the stand by himself/herself, if a pass-around microphone is not being used. No "duets" with parents holding the child or standing by, whispering in the child's ear. Our bishop read the letter, then added the SP's guidance. I loved the whole thing. I guess this has become a problem in the Wasatch Front wards? That's usually what prompts letters like these. But I welcome the help even out here in the hinterland.

I have never experienced this fast and testimony phenomenon. There has always been ample time for the same 10 -15 people to share their feelings. And there is usually plenty of silence between testimonies.

In fact I have always found it amusing to listen to the heavy breathing of a 3 year old as he puts his mouth on the microphone and waits for his mom to tell him what to say. I don't find it any less uplifting than listening to 15 minutes of someone testifying about indexing.

[Pheidippides]

That explains a lot, I think, if it's happening widely.

My ward is younger, but I haven't seen that happen here in a few years now.

[LA Ute]

My ward is younger, but I haven't seen that happen here in a few years now.

I wonder where this is coming from?

[Pheidippides]

Utah county?

[nerd alert]

In The Lord of the Rings, early on in the first book, the four hobbits are wandering through the Old Forest in an effort to avoid nasty riders. The Old Forest is itself a dangerous and odd place, and at one point the hobbits crest a hill in a open glade and survey the scenery.

One hobbit points out a valley called the Withywindle and marks it as the very source of queerness, warning the others that they certainly don't want to go that way. Unfortunately they end up going that way anyway and nearly get killed by an old malicious tree.

I think of the Withywindle valley often every time I reflect on my time at BYU and the UC.

[/nerd alert] 383

[FMCoug]

Utah county?

It doesn't happen in my ward. Of course we skew more middle aged than young so perhaps that is the reason as discussed above.

[chrisrenrut]

I'm guessing it is probably common for many new communities springing up that attract young families. I'm sure Lehi and Saratoga Springs, Daybreak, and in Davis County Foxboro and West Farmington/Kaysville are all pretty similar.

[GUBA]

They read a letter in our ward announcing a new edition of the scriptures.

[SoCalCoug]

I had no idea this thread existed! LOVE IT!

On Sunday, I learned (again) that men are inferior to women and that men need to step up.

Our sunday school teacher had her husband leave her and the kids many years ago. I am truly sorry she had to go through that. But give me a break! Every time she teaches Sunday School it turns into "you men need to really be better at............" whatever the topic of the day is, it ALWAYS turns into something she can use to further her anti-men agenda. Look, Im married, I have a small child, I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but you know what? I try. Just like 95% of LDS men. She is the best at derailing her own lessons with her agenda. Often, its just "you men think you are so cool because you have the priesthood!? Well you ARENT! God gave you that Priesthood because women already have things figured out!" ALWAYS talks in blanket statements like that with no caveats that "yeah some women are lousy and some men figure it out" nothing.

Rant over, for now.

You're not in Mission Viejo, are you? In a former ward, the gospel doctrine teacher was divorced, and I was always hearing how her ex-husband abandoned her, and what a jerk he was.

I'm a divorce lawyer, and after I moved from that ward, I started working for the firm representing her ex-husband, and I got an entirely different perspective of her. She was bitter and vindictive and trying to avoid having to work. Plus, most of the stories about how her husband abandoned her and wouldn't support his kids turned out to just be not true. Her case went up on a couple of appeals, and the appellate court didn't seem to be particularly sympathetic to her, either.

[LA Ute]

I learned that Easter Sunday can produce a great sacrament meeting if the right people are in charge and they put lots of talent and love and spirit into it.

[UteBeliever aka Port]

I can't remember a time when Easter failed to produce a great sacrament meeting, though our choir for some reason I don't understand sang "For the Beauty of the Earth" instead of an Easter hymn.

Today, ours was a bit odd but okay. They had to departing missionaries talk today. It was for both of them the "not a farewell" Sunday.

They both spoke, at least briefly, on the Atonement.

The only part of it I did not like was that both talks veered a bit into the realm of them talking about their preparations for their missions and the typical "farewell" stuff.

The ward choir sang a couple of numbers. It was nice.

But there was this odd kind of dynamic. Like you were pairing two things that didn't necessarily work out well together.

But it was Easter. I don't understand why the Bishopric didn't do this last Sunday.

[UtahsMrSports]

You're not in Mission Viejo, are you? In a former ward, the gospel doctrine teacher was divorced, and I was always hearing how her ex-husband abandoned her, and what a jerk he was.

I'm a divorce lawyer, and after I moved from that ward, I started working for the firm representing her ex-husband, and I got an entirely different perspective of her. She was bitter and vindictive and trying to avoid having to work. Plus, most of the stories about how her husband abandoned her and wouldn't support his kids turned out to just be not true. Her case went up on a couple of appeals, and the appellate court didn't seem to be particularly sympathetic to her, either.

nope, here in good old utah. and yes, im sure her husband has an entirely different side to the story.

[LA Ute]

An interesting Patheos blog post on Greek Orthodox Easter traditions.

Greek Easter or: How I Learned to Stop Whining and Love Traditions (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/barefootandpregnant/2013/03/greek-easter-or-how-i-learned-to-stop-whining-and-love-traditions-2.html)



Growing up, we didn’t have many holiday traditions. The only thing we always did was go to both my dad’s parents’ house and then my mom’s parents’ house.... But the one thing we never had was a Grand Dinner. You know what I mean? The kind that is preceded by days of preparation and anticipation, where tablecloths are laid and candles are lit and traditional foods are served and if anything is forgotten or changed the whole family acts like catastrophe has struck? Yeah. That wasn’t my family.


Then I married into that family, and holidays became a whole new experience....

[Rocker Ute]

Yeah, funny. Easter and xmas are two holidays that are pretty hard to screw up. On the opposite end of the spectrum you have Mother's Day and the 4th of July, the two holiday sacrament meetings guaranteed to offend somebody in the congregation.

Our stake decided to have fast Sunday today... that is one way to screw it up.

[LA Ute]

Our stake decided to have fast Sunday today... that is one way to screw it up.

We talked our SP into letting us do an Easter program today. It worked out well.

[utebehindenemylines]

So on the topic of sacrament meeting. I probably haven't been through an entire meeting since my son was born 2.5 years ago. The first year or so was probably just me finding excuses and whatnot to not attend (feeding him, etc.). Last year we had 1 o'clock church with sac meeting last, meaning it would take place from 2:45-4. With a toddler, I found this IMPOSSIBLE to attend. It was right during his nap time and if he doesn't get a nap, we all suffer.

He is a very active kid, basically, he does not sit still...EVER. I've been told I was the exact same way when I was a child. My question is this, how do I deal with this? We've attempted many times this year to take him into the meeting room, it usually ends before the sacrament is served, with him screaming and snarky comments and looks from others in the ward. The last few weeks we've just sat outside the room on the couches and taken the sacrament there and let him run around. At some point he's either going to mellow out and be able to handle sitting still for an hour, we're going to stop trying to go to sacrament entirely, or I'm going to lose my mind.

Please tell me some of you have gone through something similar. I realize the problem might be at least partially our fault for not getting him used to sacrament meeting from an early age. We've tried treats, Ipad, toys... They help but inevitably he tries to wander about the room and it makes us incredibly self-conscious to have others look at us like we have no idea what we're doing.

[Dawminator]

I learned yesterday that Mosiah 15 is my very favorite chapter in the BoM. It was an answer to prayer and much pondering. It was evidence to me that God knows me.

[Sullyute]

We talked our SP into letting us do an Easter program today. It worked out well.

LA, so why did you need the Stake President permission to do an Easter Program? Does the stake set the Fast & Testimony schedule for all of the wards? Was this just a nicety to ask permission first, or could you as the bishopric just changed it on your own based on what is best for your ward?

[Sullyute]

Please tell me some of you have gone through something similar. I realize the problem might be at least partially our fault for not getting him used to sacrament meeting from an early age. We've tried treats, Ipad, toys... They help but inevitably he tries to wander about the room and it makes us incredibly self-conscious to have others look at us like we have no idea what we're doing.

We had something similar happen yesterday. Our ward was really empty so we decided to sit as close to the front as possible, which meant sitting by the older empty-nesters. My five year old kept putting her hands on the top of the pew in front of her and touching this older guy. Finally he turned around and removed her hands and gave us the nastiest look. So I guess we now know our place is back in the rear of the chapel with the other rowdy kids.

[Two Utes]

Every kid is different, so take this for what it's worth. We (read: my wife) built up our son's endurance for sitting still by doing a daily "circle time" at home with the kids. She basically did a little preschool lesson with him (and sometimes with his friends) every day. Picked cool weekly topics (trucks, space, etc) along with a weekly letter and number and then had him sit still to listen and to ask/answer questions. Doing it every day, she gradually ramped up the time from just a few minutes to 15 minutes. He got better at sitting and listening. The goal (aside from the obvious educational goal) was to get him to a point where he could make it through the sacrament before we take out the toys, stickers, books, crayons. Once there, we told him that he could play after the sacrament. It gave him something to look forward to. It's been useful for us to have many options in the church bag, since the attention span for any one activity won't even get you through the first speaker. Like being on an airplane with a kid - you just cycle through the options. We had some toys that he loved that we reserved only for Sundays. He looked forward to playing with them and would play with them for longer than with toys he had already been using all week at home.

I'm sure that's not really a solution, but maybe there's something in there that will spark an idea of something to try. Don't give up - he will learn things from being there, even if it's just by osmosis while he's playing.


So you guys are building up your kids' tolerance for dull activities?

[LA Ute]

LA, so why did you need the Stake President permission to do an Easter Program? Does the stake set the Fast & Testimony schedule for all of the wards? Was this just a nicety to ask permission first, or could you as the bishopric just changed it on your own based on what is best for your ward?

I was just planning out sacrament meeting talk topics for the year (we do that in our ward) and noticed that the stake calendar had Easter Sunday as a fast Sunday. We wanted to have an Easter program (my wife is the ward music director and we like Easter programs) so I simply asked the stake exec. sec. if they had thought about that calendaring issue, and could we just do our fast and testimony meeting the week after General Conference? After asking a few questions the SP said "sure." It worked out well. Lots of people came who don't ordinarily attend church (you know what they say about Christmas and Easter) and lots of investigators came. It was a great, spiritual program. Just what we hoped for.

[Rocker Ute]

So on the topic of sacrament meeting. I probably haven't been through an entire meeting since my son was born 2.5 years ago. The first year or so was probably just me finding excuses and whatnot to not attend (feeding him, etc.). Last year we had 1 o'clock church with sac meeting last, meaning it would take place from 2:45-4. With a toddler, I found this IMPOSSIBLE to attend. It was right during his nap time and if he doesn't get a nap, we all suffer.

He is a very active kid, basically, he does not sit still...EVER. I've been told I was the exact same way when I was a child. My question is this, how do I deal with this? We've attempted many times this year to take him into the meeting room, it usually ends before the sacrament is served, with him screaming and snarky comments and looks from others in the ward. The last few weeks we've just sat outside the room on the couches and taken the sacrament there and let him run around. At some point he's either going to mellow out and be able to handle sitting still for an hour, we're going to stop trying to go to sacrament entirely, or I'm going to lose my mind.

Please tell me some of you have gone through something similar. I realize the problem might be at least partially our fault for not getting him used to sacrament meeting from an early age. We've tried treats, Ipad, toys... They help but inevitably he tries to wander about the room and it makes us incredibly self-conscious to have others look at us like we have no idea what we're doing.

What parent has any idea what their doing? People who profess to know this should be met with the highest skepticism. Any person giving you dirty looks has either, 1. Not ever had a child, or 2. Suffers from age-induced memory loss and has forgotten how their children actually were.

Aside from those handful of folks, don't misinterpret people's gazes as criticism, it is probably pity from having experienced it themselves.

I have two uncommonly good kids, and one who is probably right smack dab on normal as far as behavior goes, but feels like a hurricane juxtaposed to the other two. Even with the two easy ones, we experienced fits in public places like church, parks, grocery stores. I remember with my first one, he threw a minor fit in the grocery store that embarrassed me incredibly. I pulled him out of the cart and left it full in the aisle and started to head for the doors. Some guy stopped me and said, "Dude, don't worry about it man, nobody who matters gives a f***." Good life lesson actually.

The more active child, behavior-wise, is two and has taught herself how to belch loudly... like a man. She took the sacrament, swallowed air, let our a huge burp that was audible through the whole room and then said, "Ahh.... that was GOOD!" My other two kids collapsed on the ground in laughter, which of course reinforced the whole thing. I had one or two dirty looks, but I had a number of people after tell me that they wish something like that would happen every Sunday. I wish something like that would happen every Sunday with someone else's kids.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

So on the topic of sacrament meeting. I probably haven't been through an entire meeting since my son was born 2.5 years ago. The first year or so was probably just me finding excuses and whatnot to not attend (feeding him, etc.). Last year we had 1 o'clock church with sac meeting last, meaning it would take place from 2:45-4. With a toddler, I found this IMPOSSIBLE to attend. It was right during his nap time and if he doesn't get a nap, we all suffer.

He is a very active kid, basically, he does not sit still...EVER. I've been told I was the exact same way when I was a child. My question is this, how do I deal with this? We've attempted many times this year to take him into the meeting room, it usually ends before the sacrament is served, with him screaming and snarky comments and looks from others in the ward. The last few weeks we've just sat outside the room on the couches and taken the sacrament there and let him run around. At some point he's either going to mellow out and be able to handle sitting still for an hour, we're going to stop trying to go to sacrament entirely, or I'm going to lose my mind.

Please tell me some of you have gone through something similar. I realize the problem might be at least partially our fault for not getting him used to sacrament meeting from an early age. We've tried treats, Ipad, toys... They help but inevitably he tries to wander about the room and it makes us incredibly self-conscious to have others look at us like we have no idea what we're doing.

My life is basically the exact same, except I've got 2 loud and crazy babies under 3.. Good luck.

[FN Phat]

My life is basically the exact same, except I've got 2 loud and crazy babies under 3.. Good luck.

Yup. That is us as well. Our baby is about to be 15 months old and is very vocal and active. I spent the better part of the third hour roaming the halls with him as well. Good luck.

[UBlender]

So on the topic of sacrament meeting. I probably haven't been through an entire meeting since my son was born 2.5 years ago. The first year or so was probably just me finding excuses and whatnot to not attend (feeding him, etc.). Last year we had 1 o'clock church with sac meeting last, meaning it would take place from 2:45-4. With a toddler, I found this IMPOSSIBLE to attend. It was right during his nap time and if he doesn't get a nap, we all suffer.

He is a very active kid, basically, he does not sit still...EVER. I've been told I was the exact same way when I was a child. My question is this, how do I deal with this? We've attempted many times this year to take him into the meeting room, it usually ends before the sacrament is served, with him screaming and snarky comments and looks from others in the ward. The last few weeks we've just sat outside the room on the couches and taken the sacrament there and let him run around. At some point he's either going to mellow out and be able to handle sitting still for an hour, we're going to stop trying to go to sacrament entirely, or I'm going to lose my mind.

Please tell me some of you have gone through something similar. I realize the problem might be at least partially our fault for not getting him used to sacrament meeting from an early age. We've tried treats, Ipad, toys... They help but inevitably he tries to wander about the room and it makes us incredibly self-conscious to have others look at us like we have no idea what we're doing.

I don't know that I have any great things to add other than what's already been said by others. I've got a 4 year old boy and a 1 year old girl. The boy went through that phase like every kid does; the girl is just getting to that point where she is fully mobile and wants to just wander off if she's bored.

With my son, things that I found that helped were (like Sancho did) practicing sitting still at home, preparing beforehand by talking about what is going to happen ("remember, tomorrow/today is church and then...."), giving the kid a break from sitting once or twice during the meeting (just get up and take a lap around the hall, go to the bathroom, get a drink, etc and then come back and try again) and of course, snacks and activities (quiet toys, books, coloring, etc). Even with all of that, it never goes as well as you would hope but you get through. If your fellow ward members are being jerks about it then that is their problem and not yours. You do your best and others can deal with the results.

I agree with you fully on 1:00 church meetings--absolutely awful (for just about everyone in my opinion, but especially for younger children). I have 1:00 church this year; I'm a slacker (and I realize this contradicts part of my previous paragraph to some extent) and my wife and I take turns taking our 1 year old home after sacrament meeting (which is first in our ward) because she simply can't handle missing her afternoon nap. We do that despite the fact that we are both in presidencies that would generally require us to be there for the third hour. We find that by staying through nap time we not only make our presence in church pointless (can't sit and listen for a minute) but we also ruin the rest of our Sunday and it even spills over into Monday before we can get our little girl back "on schedule". Not worth it for that hour of church (I feel differently about the necessity of sacrament meeting).

I also have the added struggle of dealing with nonmember family and working around 1:00 church meetings. My wife's mother's side of her family is all non-LDS. Since the beginning of time they have gotten together at 1:00 on one Sunday a month to celebrate holidays and birthdays and stuff. It always becomes a fine line trying to prioritize our worship services but still let the family know that they are important to us and we care about them. It's a tough balancing act. Many of the family on that side have hard feelings toward the LDS church, which doesn't help. There's no point to all of this rambling except to say, I really would like to live in a world without 1:00 church block meetings.

[UtahsMrSports]

1:00 church is a necessary evil unfortunately. In my mind, 11 is ideal. We had 1 pm church last year and I didnt even try to deal with it. We went to sacrament meeting and one of us took my son home after. Even delayed putting him in nursery. Just doesnt work.

[Katy Lied]

We have 2 wards in one building, and the old SP never let us overlap meetings. His reasoning was that there were not enough parking stalls for two wards when meetings overlap. So we went out and counted cars and sure enough, there were sufficient parking stalls for both wards. On top of that, we keep getting car burglaries during the middle of sacrament meeting when the thieves know that the sacrament meeting room doors are shut. The burglars will break windows and cause hundreds of dollars of damage in order to get iPods, or scriptures. (They steal scriptures because sometimes people keep tithing envelopes in their scriptures). If we overlapped with the other ward then there would be people coming and going while we are in sacrament, scaring off thieves. So we asked the new SP if we could overlap, and he told us that if we were doing the missionary work that we should be doing, there wouldnt be enough parking stalls.

:mad:

[utebehindenemylines]

Glad to hear I'm not alone in my struggles. Thank you for your encouraging words!

[mpfunk]

Glad to hear I'm not alone in my struggles. Thank you for your encouraging words!

1 p.m. church with a baby/toddler is what I imagine hell to do like.

[Jarid in Cedar]

We have 2 wards in one building, and the old SP never let us overlap meetings. His reasoning was that there were not enough parking stalls for two wards when meetings overlap. So we went out and counted cars and sure enough, there were sufficient parking stalls for both wards. On top of that, we keep getting car burglaries during the middle of sacrament meeting when the thieves know that the sacrament meeting room doors are shut. The burglars will break windows and cause hundreds of dollars of damage in order to get iPods, or scriptures. (They steal scriptures because sometimes people keep tithing envelopes in their scriptures). If we overlapped with the other ward then there would be people coming and going while we are in sacrament, scaring off thieves. So we asked the new SP if we could overlap, and he told us that if we were doing the missionary work that we should be doing, there wouldnt be enough parking stalls.

:mad:

guilt trip cop out. a Mormon specialty.

[LA Ute]

We have 2 wards in one building, and the old SP never let us overlap meetings. His reasoning was that there were not enough parking stalls for two wards when meetings overlap. So we went out and counted cars and sure enough, there were sufficient parking stalls for both wards. On top of that, we keep getting car burglaries during the middle of sacrament meeting when the thieves know that the sacrament meeting room doors are shut. The burglars will break windows and cause hundreds of dollars of damage in order to get iPods, or scriptures. (They steal scriptures because sometimes people keep tithing envelopes in their scriptures). If we overlapped with the other ward then there would be people coming and going while we are in sacrament, scaring off thieves. So we asked the new SP if we could overlap, and he told us that if we were doing the missionary work that we should be doing, there wouldnt be enough parking stalls.

:mad:

:blink:

[Diehard Ute]

Just chiming in on the car prowls.

The only way to stop those is to get everyone to stop leaving things in their cars. Not even a coat or a blanket sitting on a seat.

By doing that the opportunity is gone and the thieves will go somewhere else.

As an aside, the politics of churches never cease to amaze me (I have Presbyterian politics stories ;) )

[CardiacCoug]

1 PM Church is horrible.

We put our 2 kids that nap to bed at their usual naptime of noon. One of us stays home with them until they wake up. During NCAA Tourney season and good golf on TV the naps have tended to be extra long when it is my turn to stay for the naps for some reason.

[mUUser]

1 p.m. church with a baby/toddler is what I imagine hell to do like.

Somehow throw scouting into the mix and you're probably close.

[Joe Public]

1 PM Church is horrible.

We put our 2 kids that nap to bed at their usual naptime of noon. One of us stays home with them until they wake up. During NCAA Tourney season and good golf on TV the naps have tended to be extra long when it is my turn to stay for the naps for some reason.

Same.

:highfive:

[FMCoug]

The city has asked the Stake for 50 volunteers for this year's family festival. You might be in Utah if ...

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

1 PM Church is horrible.

We put our 2 kids that nap to bed at their usual naptime of noon. One of us stays home with them until they wake up. During NCAA Tourney season and good golf on TV the naps have tended to be extra long when it is my turn to stay for the naps for some reason.

It is an abomination in the site of God.

[Dawminator]

I learned that having a willing heart is a conscious choice, not something that just magically happens as i previously thought.

I'm pretty slow.

[UBlender]

I learned that when I ran into the schedule EQ instructor last night I really should have verified that he would be there to teach today so I wouldn't have to wing it through the lesson like a missionary.

[scottie]

The city has asked the Stake for 50 volunteers for this year's family festival. You might be in Utah if ...

You might be in Utah County if...

[Harry Tic]

I learned that if you want to describe the impressive size of the conference center, you might want to choose an adjective other than "spacious."

[Jeff Lebowski]

You might be in Utah County if...

You might be in Alpine if...

[SoCalCoug]

I learned that Roy Halladay may not be totally washed up.

(Sorry, I was hanging out on my phone during Priesthood meeting).

[chrisrenrut]

I learned that I hate the hymn "Welcome, welcome, sabbath morning" under the following conditions:

1- played as the opening hymn for sacrament meeting at 2:50 PM

2- when played way too slow to come close to the instructions of "Brightly"

[LA Ute]

When you assign the wrong person to coordinate the building cleaning teams, it can be a real pain.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

When you assign the wrong person to coordinate the building cleaning teams, it can be a real pain.

Summon Pheidippides!

[San Diego Ute Fan]

I learned that I hate the hymn "Welcome, welcome, sabbath morning" under the following conditions:

1- played as the opening hymn for sacrament meeting at 2:50 PM

2- when played way too slow to come close to the instructions of "Brightly"


I've come to the conclusion that 90% of wards sing ALL hymns waaaaaaaay toooooooooo sloooooooooooowly.

Why is this? Tradition? Amateur organists that can't keep up? It drives me nuts.

[Pheidippides]

Summon Pheidippides!

I think they should just get a consulting firm to tell them how to fix the cleaning problem.

[LA Ute]

I was just commenting on a personality issue. There is no "cleaning problem" IMO. :p

[NorthwestUteFan]

I was just commenting on a personality issue. There is no "cleaning problem" IMO. :p

You apparently have not used the facilities at your local wardhouse in the last few years. Often the dankest, darkest, greasiest gas station has a less offensive odor to it than any church restroom I have dared to use.

The last time the main Men's restroom at our building smelled even remotely acceptable was a year ago when a friend and I scrubbed the entire room stem to stern, including the walls, floors, and toilets inside and out (including removing the mossy growth inside the tanks).

Yuck.

[LA Ute]

You apparently have not used the facilities at your local wardhouse in the last few years. Often the dankest, darkest, greasiest gas station has a less offensive odor to it than any church restroom I have dared to use.

The last time the main Men's restroom at our building smelled even remotely acceptable was a year ago when a friend and I scrubbed the entire room stem to stern, including the walls, floors, and toilets inside and out (including removing the mossy growth inside the tanks).

Yuck.

Your ward just needs to do a better job cleaning the restrooms. Or maybe you all just need to learn to hold it until the block is over and you can get home. :D

[Rocker Ute]

You apparently have not used the facilities at your local wardhouse in the last few years. Often the dankest, darkest, greasiest gas station has a less offensive odor to it than any church restroom I have dared to use.

The last time the main Men's restroom at our building smelled even remotely acceptable was a year ago when a friend and I scrubbed the entire room stem to stern, including the walls, floors, and toilets inside and out (including removing the mossy growth inside the tanks).

Yuck.

The last time we got to clean the building the guy in charge gave me a mop and bucket to clean the bathrooms with no cleaning solution in it. I asked him about it and he blankly stared at me like I was crazy. I waited until he went around the corner and then added some cleaner to the water so we weren't just smearing germs and urine around on the floor. I thought about the months before we got there that it likely was never cleaned properly. Nasty.

We won't even get onto the subject of sacrament trays, except to say that my wife and I regularly take them home and wash them.

[LA Ute]

I guess there is wide variation around the church regarding this whole building cleaning thing. In our building, the process is completely idiot proof. (I am not saying anyone here is an idiot. I am saying that I can be one, at least regarding these matters.) We know which vacuum to use for the hallways and which one to use for the classrooms. They're clearly marked. So are the various solutions we need to use. There is a glass cleaning solution, a disinfectant, and so forth. It's all clearly marked and the process is quite simple. Maybe our PM group is just better organized than others.

By the way, cleaning the bathroom is a relatively small part of the overall job.

[Rocker Ute]

I guess there is wide variation around the church regarding this whole building cleaning thing. In our building, the process is completely idiot proof. (I am not saying anyone here is an idiot. I am saying that I can be one, at least regarding these matters.) We know which vacuum to use for the hallways and which one to use for the classrooms. They're clearly marked. So are the various solutions we need to use. There is a glass cleaning solution, a disinfectant, and so forth. It's all clearly marked and the process is quite simple. Maybe our PM group is just better organized than others.

By the way, cleaning the bathroom is a relatively small part of the overall job.

Oh we are the same way, it just has one fatal flaw in that it is dependent on a person actually reading the labels and then putting the right solution in the right bucket, etc. In our ward we have a building cleaning coordinator who is supposed to make sure it all gets done. If it was me, I'd be pushing for an advancement from coordinator to chairperson.

I don't envy this person.

Apparently it is easier to get Mormons to uproot their entire family and travel across the US by wagon to land in semi-arid desert land than it is to get 2 or 3 families to show up for an hour on a Saturday once a year. A previous coordinator had a number of challenging callings in his life including Bishop and I remember him telling me that the coordinator job was the worst one he ever had by far.

By the way, church bulk-purchase vacuums don't suck, by which I mean they really suck at sucking, by which I mean you can't suck up anything with them. Am I right?

Is this thing on?

[Rocker Ute]

Also, did I mention the time that we took our Dyson over and cleaned the chapel with it. We normally empty the canister out on that thing every few months. I emptied it 4 times just cleaning the chapel.

Moral of the story: Your 2yo child rolling around on the ground there is basically swimming in the county dump.

I'm kind of a germ-a-phobe.

[LA Ute]

By the way, church bulk-purchase vacuums don't suck, by which I mean they really suck at sucking, by which I mean you can't suck up anything with them. Am I right?

Is this thing on?

Lol. I spent about an hour Saturday afternoon vacuuming our building. (I was alone, so I took my dog, who enjoyed the experience and found the chapel a very interesting place to sniff around. I am sure this would freak some people in my ward out. I don't care.) The big hallway vacuum did not suck, which is a bad thing, as you say. I had to pick up some small items off the carpet with my hands. The smaller vacuums for the classrooms did suck, which is good.

[Pheidippides]

I guess there is wide variation around the church regarding this whole building cleaning thing.

Maybe the consulting group can help. Oh, wait, we already did that. Never mind.

[LA Ute]

Maybe the consulting group can help. Oh, wait, we already did that. Never mind.

Let's stay focused here. Phi. Do the vacuums in your building suck?

[Pheidippides]

Let's stay focused here. Phi. Do the vacuums in your building suck?

I wouldn't have a clue. The assignment coordinator insists on always making the assignments on Saturday morning and I am busy on every Saturday morning for the next sixty years with one of kid's athletic events, cycling or running. Since all three of these rank above the church as a whole by several orders of magnitude, I don't expect I'll ever find out.

But if they were to, say, get one of the underemployed members to clean it for a fair wage instead I think I'd help pay for it. Oh, wait, I already did that once, until the consulting group got involved. Never mind.

[LA Ute]

I wouldn't have a clue. The assignment coordinator insists on always making the assignments on Saturday morning and I am busy on every Saturday morning for the next sixty years with one of kid's athletic events, cycling or running. Since all three of these rank above the church as a whole by several orders of magnitude, I don't expect I'll ever find out.

But if they were to, say, get one of the underemployed members to clean it for a fair wage instead I think I'd help pay for it. Oh, wait, I already did that once, until the consulting group got involved. Never mind.

Your guy is just unenlightened. We set the times for the work based on people's availability. Friday night? Check! Saturday afternoon? Check! (That's how I ended up vacuuming Saturday afternoon.) You need to let him know the other times when you are available to push that vacuum or touch up those windows.

[Pheidippides]

Your guy is just unenlightened. We set the times for the work based on people's availability. Friday night? Check! Saturday afternoon? Check! (That's how I ended up vacuuming Saturday afternoon.) You need to let him know the other times when you are available to push that vacuum or touch up those windows.

You assume there are. Saturday is a special day. Permit me to share my schedule from last weekend:

6:00 - wake up, eat, get dressed.
7:30 - 9:45: participate in water-based athletic activity
9:45 - 11:30: Watch son participate in ball-based athletic activity
11:30 - 7:00: participate in wheel-based athletic activity
7:30 - 9:00: help a friend with truck-based moving activity
9:00 - midnight: prepare Sunday school lesson.

So, yeah, I'm never going to find out whether the vacuum sucks.

[LA Ute]

You assume there are. Saturday is a special day. Permit me to share my schedule from last weekend:

6:00 - wake up, eat, get dressed.
7:30 - 9:45: participate in water-based athletic activity
9:45 - 11:30: Watch son participate in ball-based athletic activity
11:30 - 7:00: participate in wheel-based athletic activity
7:30 - 9:00: help a friend with truck-based moving activity
9:00 - midnight: prepare Sunday school lesson.

So, yeah, I'm never going to find out whether the vacuum sucks.

Maybe in the next life. Or during the Millennium.

[Scratch]

But if they were to, say, get one of the underemployed members to clean it for a fair wage instead I think I'd help pay for it. Oh, wait, I already did that once, until the consulting group got involved. Never mind.

My understanding is that a condition of receiving church assistance is usually to show up for all of these things. Is that not the case?

[LA Ute]

My understanding is that a condition of receiving church assistance is usually to show up for all of these things. Is that not the case?

Good point. It's really between the bishop and the recipient, but in our case the coordinator hasn't worked in a long time and as a token of her gratitude for long-running church assistance shows up every Saturday morning during the 6 months that our ward has the responsibility.

[Moliere]

Good point. It's really between the bishop and the recipient, but in our case the coordinator hasn't worked in a long time and as a token of her gratitude for long-running church assistance shows up every Saturday morning during the 6 months that our ward has the responsibility.

So unemployed people are generally the ones run img the building cleaning program? Seems like the reason it's generally poorly managed.

[Moliere]

Maybe in the next life. Or during the Millennium.

If we are still cleaning church buildings in the millennium, then I want no part of this church's afterlife.

[LA Ute]

If we are still cleaning church buildings in the millennium, then I want no part of this church's afterlife.

According to a talk by Erastus X. Snowsmith (it's in the Journal of Discourses) those who refuse to accept building cleaning assignments in this life will fulfill their duty in the Millennium, and the duration of the assignment will be as the life of a tree. You've been warned.

[Pheidippides]

According to a talk by Erastus X. Snowsmith (it's in the Journal of Discourses) those who refuse to accept building cleaning assignments in this life will fulfill their duty in the Millennium, and the duration of the assignment will be as the life of a tree. You've been warned.

Since I don't accept assignments, that's a relief!

[Rocker Ute]

Our cleaning programs runs well. In fact, it has worked well in all the wards I've been a part of. Maybe not clean enough for the Rockers, but certainly enough for regular dirty folk.

I can smell your filth through the internet. ;)

[LA Ute]

Since I don't accept assignments, that's a relief!

Seriously, in our ward we simply don't expect young families to show up to help clean, unless they want to and can find a way to fit it in.

[Scratch]

Seriously, in our ward we simply don't expect young families to show up to help clean, unless they want to and can find a way to fit it in.

When can I move in?

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I find it both funny and creepy that LaUte's dog was hanging out in the chapel on Saturday.

[LA Ute]

I find it both funny and creepy that LaUte's dog was hanging out in the chapel on Saturday.

She is a working breed, just doing her job.

[UtahsMrSports]

Seriously, in our ward we simply don't expect young families to show up to help clean, unless they want to and can find a way to fit it in.

For me, when its our families turn to clean (I have a wife and one son who is 2), I typically just head over there myself to do it.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I learned 45 minutes into Sunday School that not only was my co-teacher not teaching our class, but also that she had been released and has a new calling in the RS presidency.

Nice of them to tell me about it. :eek:

[utebehindenemylines]

9:00 - midnight: prepare Sunday school lesson.



Whoa, you must have one of those hard teaching callings. I guess there is a plus to teaching the deacons.

[LA Ute]

All the young families and kids show up in our ward. The kids erase chalkboards, gather trash, and then run and play in a huge pack for an hour. They love it.

IOW, the families have a happy attitude about that type of service. What a concept.

[Katy Lied]

My understanding is that a condition of receiving church assistance is usually to show up for all of these things. Is that not the case?

They always swear they will come when they're picking up their check, but are no-shows on Saturday. I think our bish should dispense checks directly after Saturday clean up.

[Sullyute]

All the young families and kids show up in our ward. The kids erase chalkboards, gather trash, and then run and play in a huge pack for an hour. They love it.

This is generally how it happens in my ward other than a couple of months ago when I was the only person to show up on saturday morning. I vacuumed for two hours and finally called it quits.


They always swear they will come when they're picking up their check, but are no-shows on Saturday. I think our bish should dispense checks directly after Saturday clean up.

Wouldn't that mean the bishop would actually have to show up too?! ;)

[UBlender]

Would you people stop talking about cleaning the church already and tell me what to talk about in sacrament meeting on Sunday? It is our last Sunday in the ward before we move, so much of my talk will be the airing of grievances toward ward members, but if someone has some good made-up stories I can tell that would be helpful too.

[Diehard Ute]

Would you people stop talking about cleaning the church already and tell me what to talk about in sacrament meeting on Sunday? It is our last Sunday in the ward before we move, so much of my talk will be the airing of grievances toward ward members, but if someone has some good made-up stories I can tell that would be helpful too.

Pretty sure my suggestions aren't going to be LDS appropriate ;)

[DrumNFeather]

Would you people stop talking about cleaning the church already and tell me what to talk about in sacrament meeting on Sunday? It is our last Sunday in the ward before we move, so much of my talk will be the airing of grievances toward ward members, but if someone has some good made-up stories I can tell that would be helpful too.

"And another thing...!"

[Rocker Ute]

Would you people stop talking about cleaning the church already and tell me what to talk about in sacrament meeting on Sunday? It is our last Sunday in the ward before we move, so much of my talk will be the airing of grievances toward ward members, but if someone has some good made-up stories I can tell that would be helpful too.

"...and the horse that you rode in on... Now, onto my talk about the doctrines the Lord has not yet seen fit to reveal..."

Here are some other things I'd like to see on a Sunday:

1. Setting up a bunch of bizarre visuals on/under the pulpit, but never talking about them
2. Asking for a microphone on a cord so you can walk around while you talk
3. Break into song midway through your talk and then stop and continue on as if nothing happened
4. Prepare a short talk and then near the end stand there in silence for a few minutes 'so people can soak in what you've said'
5. A powerpoint you've loaded onto an iPad that you try to hold up for everyone to see

[LA Ute]

"...and the horse that you rode in on... Now, onto my talk about the doctrines the Lord has not yet seen fit to reveal..."

Here are some other things I'd like to see on a Sunday:

1. Setting up a bunch of bizarre visuals on/under the pulpit, but never talking about them
2. Asking for a microphone on a cord so you can walk around while you talk
3. Break into song midway through your talk and then stop and continue on as if nothing happened
4. Prepare a short talk and then near the end stand there in silence for a few minutes 'so people can soak in what you've said'
5. A powerpoint you've loaded onto an iPad that you try to hold up for everyone to see

I've actually seen 1 and 3. It was awesome both times.

[Rocker Ute]

I've actually seen 1 and 3. It was awesome both times.

I've actually seen 2 and 4. One guy finished about 10 minutes early and said, "Well that is all I have to say, so maybe we can just sit here and meditate for a bit." The bishop filled the void, I wouldn't have minded some quiet time.

The other one the guy didn't have a mic and didn't need it, he wandered about the stand yelling. He did set out a tape recorder first. I don't remember all of the details except some thing about 'men are truth and women are light'. But the biggest highlight was when he called out my brother from the stand who had whispered something to a friend. He told my brother he had no respect for him and if he wasn't going to listen he should leave. So my brother and his fiancé walked on out. This guy was a known nutjob and I always wondered why he was asked to speak in the first place, he didn't even belong to the ward.

[San Diego Ute Fan]

I've actually seen 2 and 4. One guy finished about 10 minutes early and said, "Well that is all I have to say, so maybe we can just sit here and meditate for a bit." The bishop filled the void, I wouldn't have minded some quiet time.

The other one the guy didn't have a mic and didn't need it, he wandered about the stand yelling. He did set out a tape recorder first. I don't remember all of the details except some thing about 'men are truth and women are light'. But the biggest highlight was when he called out my brother from the stand who had whispered something to a friend. He told my brother he had no respect for him and if he wasn't going to listen he should leave. So my brother and his fiancé walked on out. This guy was a known nutjob and I always wondered why he was asked to speak in the first place, he didn't even belong to the ward.

Wow, that had to be "itchy".

Many years ago we were in fast meeting, and a well-loved and regarded widow bore a beautiful testimony. There was hardly a dry eye in the chapel. After she spoke she walked out the rear door into the foyer. When the meeting ended, it was discovered she had died in the foyer. True story.

[Rocker Ute]

Wow, that had to be "itchy".

Many years ago we were in fast meeting, and a well-loved and regarded widow bore a beautiful testimony. There was hardly a dry eye in the chapel. After she spoke she walked out the rear door into the foyer. When the meeting ended, it was discovered she had died in the foyer. True story.




Wow... Actually SDUF, being from the same area, you might even know this guy... his legend was far and wide. Hate to name him directly.

[San Diego Ute Fan]

One of the funniest things I've ever seen in church (In SL when I was about 17 years old...
Our Sunday School teacher confirms his eight year old son on the main podium during fast meeting. After the blessing, he picks up the kid, (chair and all) smiles, rotates left and right showing him off, just like you would after blessing an infant. It was HYSTERICAL.

[DrumNFeather]

I learned that I'm not ready to be a high priest yet after being the instructor in a combined HP/EQ meeting and having one brother take exception to a few things I wanted to discuss in my lesson. I only got through half of the first page of my three or four pages of notes because of this hang up and the subsequent discussion that went with it. It sure was fun though.

[LA Ute]

I learned that I'm not ready to be a high priest yet after being the instructor in a combined HP/EQ meeting and having one brother take exception to a few things I wanted to discuss in my lesson. I only got through half of the first page of my three or four pages of notes because of this hang up and the subsequent discussion that went with it. It sure was fun though.

What were the problem topics?

[utebehindenemylines]

2. Asking for a microphone on a cord so you can walk around while you talk



Please tell me that some of your wards bust out the microphones on cords for fast sunday. They did this in my home ward, when my wife attended she was baffled at this practice. My understanding was that it made it easier for the elderly (and there were many) in the ward who maybe didn't have the strength to walk all the way up to the pulpit. It seemed this practice got abused by the lazy and typically we'd go the entire testimony meeting with only 1 or 2 people actually stepping up to the pulpit.

[LA Ute]

Please tell me that some of your wards bust out the microphones on cords for fast sunday. They did this in my home ward, when my wife attended she was baffled at this practice. My understanding was that it made it easier for the elderly (and there were many) in the ward who maybe didn't have the strength to walk all the way up to the pulpit. It seemed this practice got abused by the lazy and typically we'd go the entire testimony meeting with only 1 or 2 people actually stepping up to the pulpit.

In our ward we have both the microphone and the pulpit available. Almost everyone comes to the pulpit. We have a few members who are using walkers or are otherwise challenged, and they use the microphone. I've never thought about this much, but my recollection is that while I was growing up in Utah, and during my school years, no one ever came to the pulpit. Is that changing?

[UtahsMrSports]

We had my favorite sunday school teacher yesterday (i talked about her earlier in this thread: the "I hate men" lady). Anyway, so she starts off by saying "is there anyone in this room who does not have any spiritual gifts? hmmmmm I don't see anyone who hasn't been baptized, except your little kids, so yes, everyone in here has at least one spiritual gift" My wife and I immediately looked at each other with dumbfounded looks. Huh? People who aren't LDS have no spiritual gifts? Yeah, I am going to have to disagree there lady.

I dont know, maybe I just get caught up on here strange wording. Later in the lesson, she said "we have to watch out for these songs today. Theres many songs out there that encourage drug abuse, abusing women, pornography, and homosexuality" Again, I looked at my wife and said "ill give her two out of four. But how many songs out there encourage or celebrate abuse of women? Exploitation, sure. Abuse? Yeah, I dont think so. Also, I have yet to hear a song that encourages drug abuse. Recreational drug use? sure." But again, she has driven me to the point that im probably unfairly nitpicky.

[DrumNFeather]

What were the problem topics?

Oh, we were just discussing the nature of God, and I just made the remark that perhaps at times of great suffering, God might find himself conflicted. I think the exact phrase I said was "puts him in a tough spot, doesn't it?" And this HP took exception to that and let me know that that wasn't the case. We were discussing President Eyring's talk from last October..."Where is the Pavillion?"

[Solon]

But how many songs out there encourage or celebrate abuse of women?

Clearly, you need to brush up on Smell the Glove by Spinal Tap. :rockon:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfwtyiGTFU1qd9oroo1_400.jpg

__________________________________________________ _________
My wife is a devout LDS relief-society teacher.
Yesterday she taught about men & women being equal partners in a marriage.

When she got home, she told me she was surprised at how many women voiced opinions during class along the lines of "Yeah, that's a good point. I need to be more of an equal partner and less controlling towards my husband."

:notwhatIwasexpecting:

[LA Ute]

Oh, we were just discussing the nature of God, and I just made the remark that perhaps at times of great suffering, God might find himself conflicted. I think the exact phrase I said was "puts him in a tough spot, doesn't it?" And this HP took exception to that and let me know that that wasn't the case. We were discussing President Eyring's talk from last October..."Where is the Pavillion?"

Seems like a silly thing for him to push back on. Really silly, in fact.

[Slim]

We had my favorite sunday school teacher yesterday (i talked about her earlier in this thread: the "I hate men" lady). Anyway, so she starts off by saying "is there anyone in this room who does not have any spiritual gifts? hmmmmm I don't see anyone who hasn't been baptized, except your little kids, so yes, everyone in here has at least one spiritual gift" My wife and I immediately looked at each other with dumbfounded looks. Huh? People who aren't LDS have no spiritual gifts? Yeah, I am going to have to disagree there lady.

Sounds like the Gospel Doctrine lesson in my ward yesterday. I have the pleasure to be in primary so I missed out, but my wife said there was a heated discussion about who is able to receive these gifts of the spirit. She said the teacher didn't know what to do and tried to rein in the lesson to no avail.

Good times had by all.

[UtahsMrSports]

Sounds like the Gospel Doctrine lesson in my ward yesterday. I have the pleasure to be in primary so I missed out, but my wife said there was a heated discussion about who is able to receive these gifts of the spirit. She said the teacher didn't know what to do and tried to rein in the lesson to no avail.

Good times had by all.

Good times! gotta love when lessons get out of hand.

[mUUser]

No kids in HS yet?

Don't know about celebrating the abuse of women, but plenty of rap out there celebrating drug use, abuse, how to work the system without getting caught etc.

The shiz HS'ers are exposed to these days is astounding. Doesn't seem to bother them so I don't get too worked up about it. Just part and parcel to their everyday lives nowadays.

[Solon]

Oh, we were just discussing the nature of God, and I just made the remark that perhaps at times of great suffering, God might find himself conflicted. I think the exact phrase I said was "puts him in a tough spot, doesn't it?" And this HP took exception to that and let me know that that wasn't the case. We were discussing President Eyring's talk from last October..."Where is the Pavillion?"

The idea that humans could comprehend the nature of God to the point of taking sides or engaging in debate about it boggles my mind.
No disrespect intended.

[UBlender]

"...and the horse that you rode in on... Now, onto my talk about the doctrines the Lord has not yet seen fit to reveal..."

Here are some other things I'd like to see on a Sunday:

1. Setting up a bunch of bizarre visuals on/under the pulpit, but never talking about them
2. Asking for a microphone on a cord so you can walk around while you talk
3. Break into song midway through your talk and then stop and continue on as if nothing happened
4. Prepare a short talk and then near the end stand there in silence for a few minutes 'so people can soak in what you've said'
5. A powerpoint you've loaded onto an iPad that you try to hold up for everyone to see

Well, I spoke yesterday and I sort of tried number one, as I had volumes of paper printed off that I piled next to the podium but never used. I also had asked for a wireless headset (like one would wear while working the drive-thru at Burger King, you know what I mean, Rocker?) so I could rove and talk hands-free but had no such luck. I had also thought about not preparing a talk, going up there with my tablet which would contain my notes, only to have the tablet "die" on me so now I don't really have a talk to give and I'm just going to say whatever comes to mind. Our second counselor in the bishopric is a major techy, so I didn't think I would be able to pull off the fake tablet-crash.

As for the actual content, since it was my last Sunday in the ward and I had served as financial clerk for several years I decided to just list off the incomes of ward members, from most to least, based on my calculations from how much tithing they paid.

[DrumNFeather]

The idea that humans could comprehend the nature of God to the point of taking sides or engaging in debate about it boggles my mind.
No disrespect intended.

Well, it wasn't my intent to engage in such a debate. I was using it as a jumping off point for a larger discussion that the talk trends to regarding God's role in our lives. I fully admitted that I don't pretend to understand God at all...but from my point of view, I would think he would be conflicted at times. This brother disagreed and expressed his displeasure in what I was asking/suggesting for about 5-7 minutes. I wasn't offended by him, and I'm not offended by you...I'm clearly not high priest material! Shucks. :)

[UtahsMrSports]

No kids in HS yet?

Don't know about celebrating the abuse of women, but plenty of rap out there celebrating drug use, abuse, how to work the system without getting caught etc.

The shiz HS'ers are exposed to these days is astounding. Doesn't seem to bother them so I don't get too worked up about it. Just part and parcel to their everyday lives nowadays.

Thats my point, and admittedly I am nitpicking her. There are no songs that "celebrate" drug ABUSE. Yes, PLENTY about Drug USE. I am still in my 20's so I am not too far removed the music of today.

[LA Ute]

The idea that humans could comprehend the nature of God to the point of taking sides or engaging in debate about it boggles my mind.
No disrespect intended.

One reason I said this seems silly to me is that a little open speculation is always part of good teaching, in my experience at least. So: "Now, this is just LA Ute's opinion, but to me it is comforting to know that God must understand what it is like to be unable to help our children when they are suffering." If someone wants to object to that naked expression of my opinion, fine; we'll just move on. It always amazes me when some people want to make a big deal out of such things.

[Solon]

Well, it wasn't my intent to engage in such a debate. I was using it as a jumping off point for a larger discussion that the talk trends to regarding God's role in our lives. I fully admitted that I don't pretend to understand God at all...but from my point of view, I would think he would be conflicted at times. This brother disagreed and expressed his displeasure in what I was asking/suggesting for about 5-7 minutes. I wasn't offended by him, and I'm not offended by you...I'm clearly not high priest material! Shucks. :)

Ha. I was more floored by someone contradicting the teacher on something so "unknowable" (to me).
My incredulity was focused on your interlocutor.

You won't be HP material until you start getting grumpier. (not that I'm a HP - I'm not)

[DrumNFeather]

Ha. I was more floored by someone contradicting the teacher on something so "unknowable" (to me).
My incredulity was focused on your interlocutor.

You won't be HP material until you start getting grumpier. (not that I'm a HP - I'm not)

Yeah, that's what most people's reaction was to his objection...it was mostly like..."really"? Apparently he apologized to the EQ Pres...but not to me. lol.

[UtahsMrSports]

Yeah, that's what most people's reaction was to his objection...it was mostly like..."really"? Apparently he apologized to the EQ Pres...but not to me. lol.

I have never understood why people want to make a big deal out of things in lessons. As I mentioned above, when I disagree wtih something, I just tell my wife or if Im in priesthood, I just keep it to myself and move on.

[Rocker Ute]

Well, I spoke yesterday and I sort of tried number one, as I had volumes of paper printed off that I piled next to the podium but never used. I also had asked for a wireless headset (like one would wear while working the drive-thru at Burger King, you know what I mean, Rocker?) so I could rove and talk hands-free but had no such luck. I had also thought about not preparing a talk, going up there with my tablet which would contain my notes, only to have the tablet "die" on me so now I don't really have a talk to give and I'm just going to say whatever comes to mind. Our second counselor in the bishopric is a major techy, so I didn't think I would be able to pull off the fake tablet-crash.

As for the actual content, since it was my last Sunday in the ward and I had served as financial clerk for several years I decided to just list off the incomes of ward members, from most to least, based on my calculations from how much tithing they paid.

It sounds like you did your best, and if I learned one thing in church this Sunday, it is that that is good enough. Fortunately though I learned two things.

I also learned about what it is like to go from a dentist who you perceive to be a good man, to a dentist who you believe is not a good man and how that can affect your entire life. Short answer: It is not good.

[Rocker Ute]

Thats my point, and admittedly I am nitpicking her. There are no songs that "celebrate" drug ABUSE. Yes, PLENTY about Drug USE. I am still in my 20's so I am not too far removed the music of today.

Whenever an old guy starts wanting to argue I just turn down their hearing aid... or up. Up is funny too.

[Diehard Ute]

So after reading all this, as a non LDS person, my biggest question is, you guys don't have wireless microphones????

[LA Ute]

So after reading all this, as a non LDS person, my biggest question is, you guys don't have wireless microphones????

We have one. They're kind of expensive, so I am guessing not many LDS congregations have them.

[Diehard Ute]

We have one. They're kind of expensive, so I am guessing not many LDS congregations have them.

Every Protestant church in Salt Lake I've been to has had them for 10 years that's why I was surprised

The Presbyterians of Utah aren't exactly wealthy ;)

[LA Ute]

Every Protestant church in Salt Lake I've been to has had them for 10 years that's why I was surprised

The Presbyterians of Utah aren't exactly wealthy ;)

There you go again, trying to minimize the scope of the worldwide Presbyterian conspiracy and the vast wealth underlying it.

In truth, I'll bet the Presbyterians don't have a centralized worldwide purchasing department that decides what equipment a congregation can have. Our wireless mic was donated by a member.

[Diehard Ute]

There you go again, trying to minimize the scope of the worldwide Presbyterian conspiracy and the vast wealth underlying it.

In truth, I'll bet the Presbyterians don't have a centralized worldwide purchasing department that decides what equipment a congregation can have. Our wireless mic was donated by a member.

That may be it. Presbyterian congregations (and most Protestant ones for that matter) rely solely on the donations of that churches members. Whether it be to pay the light bill, build a new building, pay the pastor or buy a wireless mic, the only money to do it with is that which is given by those who choose to go to church there.

There's no money, or purchasing, from on high so to speak haha

[Rocker Ute]

"And in those days many churches said 'Lo there is a Best Buy here, and 'Lo there is a Radio Shack there.'

[FMCoug]

Best Stake Conference ever. We are in the back since I refuse to show up an hour early for a two hour meeting. So we are watching on the projector screen. Anyway there is a kid in the primary choir playing paper rock scissors with his neighbor.

[Utah]

As for the actual content, since it was my last Sunday in the ward and I had served as financial clerk for several years I decided to just list off the incomes of ward members, from most to least, based on my calculations from how much tithing they paid.

LOL. In all seriousness, this is why I pay my tithing straight through the church and not through the ward.

[Moliere]

We have one. They're kind of expensive, so I am guessing not many LDS congregations have them.

If only we had $2 billion laying around waiting to be used for local congregations...

[LA Ute]

If only we had $2 billion laying around waiting to be used for local congregations...

529

You need to stop seeing the world this way.

[DrumNFeather]

We got the run down in EQ about the temple complex that will be built in Jackson County during the millennium.

[LA Ute]

We got the run down in EQ about the temple complex that will be built in Jackson County during the millennium.

So I hear the Moroni statue will be holding an American flag instead of a trumpet?

[DrumNFeather]

So I hear the Moroni statue will be holding an American flag instead of a trumpet?

That would be awesome.

[Two Utes]

LOL. In all seriousness, this is why I pay my tithing straight through the church and not through the ward.

I thought people did that so that they could pay less and still get their temple recommend since nobody in the ward knows what you paid.

[Two Utes]

We got the run down in EQ about the temple complex that will be built in Jackson County during the millennium.

Anybody care to email MSN and explain the real reason there are so many retirees in Independence?

http://money.msn.com/retirement-plan/10-cities-where-retirees-rule

[Mormon Red Death]

I thought people did that so that they could pay less and still get their temple recommend since nobody in the ward knows what you paid.

Damn Straight that is why we do it. I could tell you stories about being financial clerk...

[LA Ute]

Damn Straight that is why we do it. I could tell you stories about being financial clerk...

Financial clerks are human beings and volunteers with no professional responsibility to keep confidences. That's why we do it! I could be wrong but I think the SP still knows how much members pay in donations. Anyone know?

[Mormon Red Death]

Financial clerks are human beings and volunteers with no professional responsibility to keep confidences. That's why we do it! I could be wrong but I think the SP still knows how much members pay in donations. Anyone know?

He doesnt... From an email I received from the church:


The preferable method of payment to the church is still to your local unit. Please note all donations are made to the general funds of the church and nothing is reported back to the local unit.

[Pheidippides]

Financial clerks are human beings and volunteers with no professional responsibility to keep confidences. That's why we do it! I could be wrong but I think the SP still knows how much members pay in donations. Anyone know?

No, he doesn't. It's the entire reason I pay directly to SLC.

[LA Ute]

No, he doesn't. It's the entire reason I pay directly to SLC.


He doesnt... From an email I received from the church:

Thanks. I got it!

[FN Phat]

Someone posted a link for the direct to SLC pay on CUF but I couldn't find it. Can anyone help a brother out?

[Mormon Red Death]

Someone posted a link for the direct to SLC pay on CUF but I couldn't find it. Can anyone help a brother out?

The link isnt up anymore. Apparently the church canceled the link.


Well, I just recently learned that either the Church never intended this for the general membership, or they changed their policy. Apparently too many Billpay checks were coming in as paper checks, rather than electronically, and it's overwhelmed the donations department, since they have to process all paper checks by hand, unlike when it's delivered electronically.

I guess the church is saying why should we pay someone to process checks for us on North Temple when we get it for free everywhere else?

boardmail me your email and I will send you the forms

[DrumNFeather]

Makes sense. I'm sure that soon it will be easy to do an auto pay electronically.

I have news for those of you who want to keep your income unknown - if the clerk, or the bishop, or the stake president, or your neighbor or whoever knows what you do for a living, there's a good chance that person also has a ballpark idea of your income.

Please don't take the fun out of being paranoid. ;)

[Mormon Red Death]

Makes sense. I'm sure that soon it will be easy to do an auto pay electronically.

I have news for those of you who want to keep your income unknown - if the clerk, or the bishop, or the stake president, or your neighbor or whoever knows what you do for a living, there's a good chance that person also has a ballpark idea of your income.

Ballpark is fine... extrapolations from real $ is not. BTW... don't count on the church to make it easy to pay electronically anytime soon. They want you to pay to your local leaders for a variety of reasons.

[Solon]

The link isnt up anymore. Apparently the church canceled the link.

I guess the church is saying why should we pay someone to process checks for us on North Temple when we get it for free everywhere else?

boardmail me your email and I will send you the forms

This totally makes sense to me. Non-profit religious organizations should make it as difficult as they can to donate to them. I think they should make donors convert their money into Croatian kunas.

As for not wanting people to know what someone earns, my dad is retired and pays tithing on his interest income. He occasionally gets glib statements from a young whippersnapper about how his investments must be doing okay. That's annoying, sure, but what really gets him is the way he feels targeted to donate extra money to various causes (like Friends of Scouting) based on his regular donations.

[LA Ute]

It seems to me a total no-brainer to allow (even encourage) online donations. (That's how we donate.) I can see why they wouldn't want checks coming in to SLC. Solon, the kid who makes such comments to your dad is an idiot and should know better.

[mUUser]

...I have news for those of you who want to keep your income unknown - if the clerk, or the bishop, or the stake president, or your neighbor or whoever knows what you do for a living, there's a good chance that person also has a ballpark idea of your income.


Sure if you're a school teacher or govt employee without any other form of income perhaps. What about a business executive, lawyer or salesperson? That's nonsense. There's base salary, bonuses, sales commissions, stock options, restricted stock, performance stock (and a half-dozen other types of stock incentives/awards) investment income, income from rental properties, inheritance, judgments and awards etc.... that, unless you live in Provo, you can generally keep reasonably private if you desire.

A number of years ago, a bishop sent a letter out to about 30 families in the ward (so the letter says), asking us to be generous in our fast offerings. Suggested amount was between $250-$300 per month. I can only surmise that the 30 that were picked was based on prior tithing donations. On the one hand, I appreciated the guidance. On the other hand, I felt like my privacy had been violated which caused me to alter the way I donate tithing to the church. By title and company someone may think they can ballpark income. In many cases, they'd be flat-out wrong.

[Rocker Ute]

I am not up to date on whatever scam or conspiracy or whatever we are afraid of here. Why do we not want the clerk to know how much we make?


Maybe we want to keep our riches private because we feel guilty about how little we donate? Why else?

Here is why I pay directly to the church. A while back an ill-advised counselor in the Bishopric felt it necessary once in the middle of a bunch people to come up to me after a particularly good year to say, "Whoa, I had no idea you made that much money, you sure hide it well!" He meant it as a compliment, but it was extremely embarrassing to me (in that particular ward was a mix of people, a vast majority of whom were elderly people who lived in modest houses, worked extremely hard all of their lives but never had much and couldn't understand one bit why younger people viewed homes they had raised large families in were considered 'starter homes'), and he should have known better. It wasn't a typical year, and I've had plenty the other direction to offset it but the point is, it wasn't his, or anybody else's business what I made or don't make, nor to pronounce it to anyone else.

I don't want my peers to think of me as rich or poor or anything else related to that, particularly because a lot of Mormons view personal wealth as some sort of indicator of evidence of righteousness.

Recently another counselor mentioned to me how much another member of the ward donated (he didn't say a specific number, just said it was 'a lot, a lot more than you'd expect') which he also meant as a compliment, but I'm 100% sure the donor would prefer to keep that sort of stuff under wraps.

So yes, there are a lot of compelling reasons to pay directly to the church. BTW it is easy to do for those who asked how to do it:

http://tech.lds.org/wiki/Donations_to_Church_Headquarters

Actually, since paying directly to HQ people assume means you are wealthy, what I do is pay a portion to the ward and the rest to HQ, so nobody has any idea either direction what I make. And no, I am not wealthy. :)

[LA Ute]

Here is why I pay directly to the church. A while back an ill-advised counselor in the Bishopric felt it necessary once in the middle of a bunch people to come up to me after a particularly good year to say, "Whoa, I had no idea you made that much money, you sure hide it well!" He meant it as a compliment, but it was extremely embarrassing to me (in that particular ward was a mix of people, a vast majority of whom were elderly people who lived in modest houses, worked extremely hard all of their lives but never had much and couldn't understand one bit why younger people viewed homes they had raised large families in were considered 'starter homes'), and he should have known better. It wasn't a typical year, and I've had plenty the other direction to offset it but the point is, it wasn't his, or anybody else's business what I made or don't make, nor to pronounce it to anyone else.

I don't want my peers to think of me as rich or poor or anything else related to that, particularly because a lot of Mormons view personal wealth as some sort of indicator of evidence of righteousness.

Recently another counselor mentioned to me how much another member of the ward donated (he didn't say a specific number, just said it was 'a lot, a lot more than you'd expect') which he also meant as a compliment, but I'm 100% sure the donor would prefer to keep that sort of stuff under wraps.

So yes, there are a lot of compelling reasons to pay directly to the church. BTW it is easy to do for those who asked how to do it:

http://tech.lds.org/wiki/Donations_to_Church_Headquarters

Actually, since paying directly to HQ people assume means you are wealthy, what I do is pay a portion to the ward and the rest to HQ, so nobody has any idea either direction what I make. And no, I am not wealthy. :)

This are the types of reasons that we donate online. We do pay fast offerings locally, as well as missionary donations. There are lots of good reasons to keep one's income level private.

[Mormon Red Death]

I am not up to date on whatever scam or conspiracy or whatever we are afraid of here. Why do we not want the clerk to know how much we make?



When I say ballpark, I mean wealthy or not wealthy. The people you are talking about are clearly wealthy. Does it matter if a ballpark is off if we are talking about six figures? People know if you've got money.

Maybe we want to keep our riches private because we feel guilty about how little we donate? Why else?

The biggest problem with the way the church currently does things is that I or anyone else can't make a charitable donation without at least 3 other people seeing how much I donated and having a good indication on what my salary is. Keep in mind these people interact with me and my family a lot and our sometimes close neighbors. Sometimes they can be relatives.

I remember we received a large end of the year donation from guy who was working for one of the Autos overseas. He generally sent his donations by mail. Well he was in town for the end of the year for work and put his tithing from his bonus in. Both the bishop and 1st counselor worked in the auto business and were privy to how much his bonus was (very large) due to seeing his tithing. They were a buzz talking all afternoon about it. Those types of situations should be a big reason why we should be able to pay online

[Rocker Ute]

I still maintain that people more or less know if you are rich. I must be very fortunate to have lived my life in places where people do not connect wealth with righteousness. How absurd!

I am glad I have never had or heard of a similar situation with a clerk. It must be rare. He should have been released immediately.

I will say that when I was a clerk, the donations were very inspiring to me. That calling really made me want to be more generous.



Very sneaky. I guess I just don't care if people in my ward know that I am earning a good salary.

People shouldn't talk about it, but people do talk about it publicly or privately. The saying comes to mind of 'an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.'

I'll also say that actually people typically have no idea what people make (I was a clerk once too). A guy leasing a Mercedes < a guy who bought a Camry outright, but everyone will think the Mercedes guy is richer. Not everyone wants to display their wealth.

[UBlender]

I wish the LDS Church would push for more modern means of donation (i.e. online, autopay) not only for the reasons stated already, but mostly for the fact that I served as financial clerk for three years and, while I didn't mind the calling in itself, I HATED staying after church for anywhere from 1-3 hours every Sunday to process the donations.

Instead of the traditional punishments for those who sin the church should call those individuals as financial clerks in wards with a 1:00 (or later) block. Being at church until 7:00 with the Bishop on a Fast Sunday will scare anyone straight real quick. Fortunately when I had that calling for the year with the 1:00 meeting time, our first counselor was an old grump who wanted no part of staying that late so he would insist that we start during the 3rd hour (sometimes even the 2nd) so we could be sure to be done shortly after 4:00.

Of course, I am the guy who thinks one of the biggest things that isn't right with so many of the wards in the church right now is the burden for time-intensive service that is placed on too many of the individual members and families, such that parents are taken out of the home too often and for too long doing things that go beyond the basic purpose of the church. In other words, way too many meetings for the sake of meetings and, in this case, time spent manually processing donations when the technology exists to cut it down significantly.

[GarthUte]

I didn't learn this in church, but it is church related: mp and his family are in my stake.

[DrumNFeather]

I guess I just don't care, but I'm clearly in the minority here. I'm glad there are direct options for people who feel strongly about clerks not seeing their checks.

Maybe I am gifted at spotting wealth, but I generally have a good idea of who has money and who doesn't.

It's all a personality thing. When I was called to be the finance clerk, I had people avoid paying tithing on weeks that they knew I was counting to avoid me knowing their salary (this guy was at the time a friend, but a very paranoid person in general who frequently boasted about how much he made). Another friend just flat out told me what he made. I spent no time worrying about the amounts and all my time figuring out how to get out of there faster so I could get home. Not once did I discuss the finances of other people in the ward with them or anyone else. Am I the exception or the rule? Who knows.

[Rocker Ute]

I guess I just don't care, but I'm clearly in the minority here. I'm glad there are direct options for people who feel strongly about clerks not seeing their checks.

Maybe I am gifted at spotting wealth, but I generally have a good idea of who has money and who doesn't.

It is good you don't care. I didn't care when I was a clerk either, in fact made an effort to not pay attention or evaluate what was going on. Made an extra point to not say anything or even comment to others looking at the same numbers. If nothing else, I was typically more impressed with the poor single mom donating a small amount than I was with the rich guy donating a lot, there is something to be said for the generosity of people living in the margins.

On that note, a few years ago when we did that fundraising drive for Millie on UF.N, there were some big donations made. The one that caused me and my wife to break down in tears was a lady who gave $4 and change with an apologetic note that said, "I'm sorry, I'd give more because I've been so blessed, but that is all I have in the bank." All donations were amazing, but that one stood like a giant among them.

[LA Ute]

No, I think those who talk are the exception. I never said a word to anyone.

I've been ward clerk before and in the bishopric for a long time now (I think I'll get out this summer). I never talk about the amounts to anyone. It's kind of understood. Frankly, our main goal is to get the financial work done and get out of there (when we are doing the money I've been there since 6:30 a.m. and it's now about 1:00). We have a pretty good system ourselves and the MIS program makes everything pretty dummy-proof, so we blow through it all pretty quickly.

[mUUser]

Several years ago we received a letter from the bishop asking about 30 select families in the ward (so said the letter) to increase their FO amounts. A suggested monthly donation of $250 - $300 was given. I can only surmise that the families chosen was based on income extrapolated from prior tithing amounts. This caused a change in my behavior both as it relates to FO, and how I pay tithing.

There's not a single person I go to church with that needs to know how much I make, or how much I've paid in tithing and other donations. They don't need to have knowledge of my sex life either. Both are equally private issues.

[UteBeliever aka Port]

I'm currently a financial clerk. I've been through a couple of tithing settlements. I've done this with two different bishoprics.

Personally, I HATE knowing what people donate or do not donate and I don't like the speculation that I have seen go on.

With both bishoprics, there have been discussions about the year end statements of some individuals. None of it is derogatory, mind you, but I've seen two sets of counselors discuss the amount tithed and extrapolate incomes.

The new bishop, when one particularly wealthy individuals statement showed a "0" and yet the guy claimed to pay a full tithe, came into the clerks office to see if he had paid tithing before/after settlement or what was going on....

I've had the same discussion regarding tithing with both sets of counselors. The discussions both times were similar. Member pays X amount in tithing... They must make 10X. They are the wealthiest person in the ward. Jist from the counselors (who ALL obviously believe and have voiced that the only true tithe is on gross) is that you can tell how much one makes by what they tithe.

During both discussions, I said that isn't necessarily true because each individuals decision on HOW to tithe might be different. This was met with some surprise that I would suggest that anyone would pay differently than 10% of gross.

I asked them what gross is. "Well, it's 10% of your income." I asked them how they figure that for a small business person that isn't on a W2. Is a cell phone a business cost? Or is that income? Healthy insurance?

Me: BTW, do you guys figure out the total value of your compensation and pay on that? Do you know the true cost of your health/vision/dental benefits and do you pay a tithe on that? If not, why not? ISn't it an "increase" to you?

I realize that after these discussions, I've invited some suspicion from both pairs of counselors that I might not be tithing the "right way."

My experience is that while counselors and bishops don't necessarily talk about tithing and offerings with those outside of the bishopric, there is plenty of discussion about it within the bishopric, especially at the time of tithing settlement when the yearly numbers are revealed OR when a very large check is processed.

After this experience, I've decided I'll start paying to SLC. With my job and the work I do for a number of friends or ward members, I'd rather not my information get out there. Utahns are funny...they believe the government should allow people to make as much money as they can. However, they rarely enjoy the people they do business with making "too much". It sure seems as if Utahns frown upon being "too" succesful. For that reason, should I ever really bring home the bacon, I'd like to keep that to myself.

[LA Ute]

Port, I am a big proponent of paying directly and digitally to SLC. Good decision, especially in light of the appalling nonsense that goes on in your ward.

[mUUser]

...the appalling nonsense that goes on in your ward.

....LA, what you mean to say, of course is the agregious nonsense that goes on in virtually every ward (at least in this country). The church is set up in a way that makes it almost impossible for nonsense to not find its way into the ward in all its nooks and crannies....speculation about income, jobs, marriages, parenting, kids, spare time, testimonies....you name it. Meetings are loaded with topics that promote speculation. Lists are made. Friends are assigned. Phone calls & visits. In the end though, conjecture rules the day and runs rampant in the church. I've seen it far too often to believe it's the exception to the rule.

[LA Ute]

....LA, what you mean to say, of course is the agregious nonsense that goes on in virtually every ward (at least in this country). The church is set up in a way that makes it almost impossible for nonsense to not find its way into the ward in all its nooks and crannies....speculation about income, jobs, marriages, parenting, kids, spare time, testimonies....you name it. Meetings are loaded with topics that promote speculation. Lists are made. Friends are assigned. Phone calls & visits. In the end though, conjecture rules the day and runs rampant in the church. I've seen it far too often to believe it's the exception to the rule.

I know I keep saying this but I've never run into that in 30+ years in SoCal. Still, I don't doubt it goes on, or could go on, which is why I pay online to SLC.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I know I keep saying this but I've never run into that in 30+ years in SoCal. Still, I don't doubt it goes on, or could go on, which is why I pay online to SLC.

I think your glasses are a little too rose colored.

[LA Ute]

I think your glasses are a little too rose colored.

Don't misunderstand me -- all I'm saying is that I'm lucky. I know the stuff Port talks about goes on. Remember - I pay online directly to Salt Lake.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Don't misunderstand me -- all I'm saying is that I'm lucky. I know the stuff Port talks about goes on. Remember - I pay online directly to Salt Lake.

He wasn't taking about tithing/donations. mUUser is addressing generalized nonsense that is rampant in the lds church social circles. Speculation of income, temple worthiness, parenting skills, upbringing, etc, etc, etc. The need to feel more worthy, blessed, than the Joneses by any measure possible. Mormons like to judge themselves in direct comparison to other church members (being ahead of the unwashed masses is a given).

And this is what he is saying happens in every single ward. If it doesn't happen in your California wards, then it is because the glasses are colored just right.

[Diehard Ute]

. Utahns are funny...they believe the government should allow people to make as much money as they can. However, they rarely enjoy the people they do business with making "too much". It sure seems as if Utahns frown upon being "too" succesful. For that reason, should I ever really bring home the bacon, I'd like to keep that to myself.

I know this is sort of off topic, but believe me when I say I hate that the Tribune publishes my supposed salary on Utah's Right each year. It's never right, has no explanation and leads many to think I'm rolling in money working for the government, so I truly understand where you're coming from. As someone who's "pay" is on the Internet it sucks.

[LA Ute]

He wasn't taking about tithing/donations. mUUser is addressing generalized nonsense that is rampant in the lds church social circles. Speculation of income, temple worthiness, parenting skills, upbringing, etc, etc, etc. The need to feel more worthy, blessed, than the Joneses by any measure possible. Mormons like to judge themselves in direct comparison to other church members (being ahead of the unwashed masses is a given).

And this is what he is saying happens in every single ward. If it doesn't happen in your California wards, then it is because the glasses are colored just right.

When i said "nonsense" I was just talking about the finances. That other stuff goes on in SoCal wards too. It seems to me that the more affluent the ward, the more we see those behaviors.

[DrumNFeather]

He wasn't taking about tithing/donations. mUUser is addressing generalized nonsense that is rampant in the lds church social circles. Speculation of income, temple worthiness, parenting skills, upbringing, etc, etc, etc. The need to feel more worthy, blessed, than the Joneses by any measure possible. Mormons like to judge themselves in direct comparison to other church members (being ahead of the unwashed masses is a given).

And this is what he is saying happens in every single ward. If it doesn't happen in your California wards, then it is because the glasses are colored just right.

Can't you chalk some of that up to good ole fashioned human nature? Perhaps you were being hyperbolic to make a point...that's been known to happen on the internet from time to time. I too am not saying it doesn't happen, certainly it does...but I also think you see that kind of comparing and speculating in all walks of life...particularly in your average office environment. My office around annual review and bonus time is basically one big speculative keep up with the jones's party, and not a single person there is LDS. Now, if you want to say that this kind of thing gets exacerbated by the small and tight nit communities within the LDS church, I can buy that, maybe. Still, I don't think you see any less keeping score in any other walk of life including but not limited to work, friends, family (especially family).

[Rocker Ute]

Can't you chalk some of that up to good ole fashioned human nature? Perhaps you were being hyperbolic to make a point...that's been known to happen on the internet from time to time. I too am not saying it doesn't happen, certainly it does...but I also think you see that kind of comparing and speculating in all walks of life...particularly in your average office environment. My office around annual review and bonus time is basically one big speculative keep up with the jones's party, and not a single person there is LDS. Now, if you want to say that this kind of thing gets exacerbated by the small and tight nit communities within the LDS church, I can buy that, maybe. Still, I don't think you see any less keeping score in any other walk of life including but not limited to work, friends, family (especially family).

I think this is totally correct. There is an element of some LDS folks who equate spiritual worthiness with financial success, but the majority of it is human nature. If it wasn't there would be no fashion industry or the concept of 'brand building'. If you want a community in Utah that is mostly not LDS, but does all of the stuff Jarid described and more, spend some time in Park City. If you don't want to lose the brain power getting involved in the community there, just drive by Park City High School when it is session and look at the parking lot and you'll know what I'm talking about.

[Mormon Red Death]

Can't you chalk some of that up to good ole fashioned human nature? Perhaps you were being hyperbolic to make a point...that's been known to happen on the internet from time to time. I too am not saying it doesn't happen, certainly it does...but I also think you see that kind of comparing and speculating in all walks of life...particularly in your average office environment. My office around annual review and bonus time is basically one big speculative keep up with the jones's party, and not a single person there is LDS. Now, if you want to say that this kind of thing gets exacerbated by the small and tight nit communities within the LDS church, I can buy that, maybe. Still, I don't think you see any less keeping score in any other walk of life including but not limited to work, friends, family (especially family).

Humans have a screwed up way of reason where if they think they are getting slighted they cut off their nose to spite their face. In 1982, some economists came up with a little game to study negotiating strategies. The results showed that rationality is subservient to more powerful drives—and demonstrated why human beings so easily conclude they are being wronged. They came up with “the ultimatum game” The idea of the "ultimatum game" is simple. Player A is given 20 $1 bills and told that, in order to keep any of the money, A must share it with Player B. If B accepts A's offer, they both pocket whatever they've agreed to. If B rejects the offer, they both get nothing. Economists naturally expected the players to do the rational thing: A would offer the lowest possible amount—$1; and B, knowing $1 was more than zero, would accept. Ha!

In the years the game has been played, it's been found that almost half the A's immediately offer to split the money—an offer B's accept. When A offers $9 or even $8, B usually says yes. But when A's offer drops to $7, about half the B's walk away. The lower A's offer, the more likely the B's are to turn their backs on a few free dollars in favor of a more satisfying outcome: punishing the person who offended their sense of fairness.

Jesus understood this principle and demonstrated in the parable of the laborers in the vineyard. The parable is that people are hired to work in the vineyard at different times in the day (even one with only and hour to go) and are all given the same reward (one penny).
Mathew 20: 9 - 13
And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

[NorthwestUteFan]

A secondary moral of that story in Matthew is this: If you are a poor negotiator, you only have yourself to blame. The marketplace at that time was strictly a barter economy wherein your price depended on your ability to negotiate.

The people who speculate about income extrapolated from tithing paid have an underlying motive based in the Micah verse the church uses to twist arms for tithing: "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me... "

Never mind the fact that those verses refer not to the lay people, but to the Levite priests who were not giving enough of the collected tithes and offerings to the poor...

[UteBeliever aka Port]

When i said "nonsense" I was just talking about the finances. That other stuff goes on in SoCal wards too. It seems to me that the more affluent the ward, the more we see those behaviors.

My ward really isn't that affluent. It's not poor, but it's not even the most affluent ward in the stake, let alone the area. Very average neighborhood for the part of Utah we live in, which, itself, is pretty average.

I haven't seen the equating of income with worthiness thing. Our ward doesn't seem to suffer from that particular problem. (Although, I will say, there is a small number of families that does really seem to have a chip on their shoulders towards the families that live in the "nicer" part of the ward...to the point of calling it "The Celestial Kingdom" in a derogatory, sarcastic way.)

That's really not what my post was about anyway. It was about the chitty-chattiness about incomes and donations amongst bishops and counselors.

[LA Ute]

That's really not what my post was about anyway. It was about the chitty-chattiness about incomes and donations amongst bishops and counselors.

And that's all I was responding to. Our approach is to pay online and thereby avoid putting the financial clerk in a position that may tempt him to sin. ;)

[UteBeliever aka Port]

I think this is totally correct. There is an element of some LDS folks who equate spiritual worthiness with financial success, but the majority of it is human nature. If it wasn't there would be no fashion industry or the concept of 'brand building'. If you want a community in Utah that is mostly not LDS, but does all of the stuff Jarid described and more, spend some time in Park City. If you don't want to lose the brain power getting involved in the community there, just drive by Park City High School when it is session and look at the parking lot and you'll know what I'm talking about.

Do you really think those folks in Park City really equate financial success with worthiness or spirituality? I don't. They just want to appear to have more money than the next guy.

I think that's really what it boils down to in church, too. Granted, I haven't seen this equating of financial success with spirituality in my wards. If anything, I hear comments to the opposite..."People could really do more good things and be more charitable instead of having boats and snowmobiles, etc."

I think the nosiness about finances is driven by something in human nature, but I think it has little to do with wanting to know who is more spiritual than whom. I think it comes from jealousy, greed....curiosity...

[stretchiute]

I did that exercise in Harvard Negotiations Project based negotiations class. I was also reminded of it during last week's Freakanomics podcast on spite. The results in our sample were about the same as you mentioned.

side note. The Freakanomics podcast is my favorite these days.

Question: How do you pay tithing online?

[Mormon Red Death]

I did that exercise in Harvard Negotiations Project based negotiations class. I was also reminded of it during last week's Freakanomics podcast on spite. That results in our sample were about the same.

side note. The Freakanomics podcast is my favorite these days.

Question: How do you pay tithing online?

send me a boardmail with your email and I will send you the forms and instructions. The LDS church took down the links with these forms.

[UtahsMrSports]

We had SC yesterday and I just wish that we could have a memo from HQ about saying prayers. I wish folks would just stick to the basics that the missionaries teach to investigators. Start your prayer, express gratitude for a couple things, ask for a couple things, amen, then sit down. If you are up there for more than 20 seconds, you are doing it wrong! Being asked to give a prayer is not the same thing as being asked to give a talk! Know the differences and follow!

[San Diego Ute Fan]

We had SC yesterday and I just wish that we could have a memo from HQ about saying prayers. I wish folks would just stick to the basics that the missionaries teach to investigators. Start your prayer, express gratitude for a couple things, ask for a couple things, amen, then sit down. If you are up there for more than 20 seconds, you are doing it wrong! Being asked to give a prayer is not the same thing as being asked to give a talk! Know the differences and follow!

I couldn't agree more. My wife was asked to offer the invocation a year ago in stake conference. She was reminded (very tactfully) to keep it short and sweet.

This must be SOP as we never get sermon prayers. Refreshing.

[Rocker Ute]

Do you really think those folks in Park City really equate financial success with worthiness or spirituality? I don't. They just want to appear to have more money than the next guy.

I think that's really what it boils down to in church, too. Granted, I haven't seen this equating of financial success with spirituality in my wards. If anything, I hear comments to the opposite..."People could really do more good things and be more charitable instead of having boats and snowmobiles, etc."

I think the nosiness about finances is driven by something in human nature, but I think it has little to do with wanting to know who is more spiritual than whom. I think it comes from jealousy, greed....curiosity...

No, I meant that while there was an element of LDS people who equate success with worthiness in the church, that the majority of the one-upsmanship and comparison stuff we witness among our congregations was human nature. I was then pointing to the small, mostly non-LDS and tight knit community of Park City that has similar problems if not worse of keeping up with the joneses as evidence that this isn't a problem exclusive to LDS people at all.

In other words, we are on the same page.

[LA Ute]

No, I meant that while there was an element of LDS people who equate success with worthiness in the church, that the majority of the one-upsmanship and comparison stuff we witness among our congregations was human nature. I was then pointing to the small, mostly non-LDS and tight knit community of Park City that has similar problems if not worse of keeping up with the joneses as evidence that this isn't a problem exclusive to LDS people at all.

In other words, we are on the same page.

Jewish communities (temples and synagogues) in L.A. are the same way, if what my Orthodox, Conservative and Reformed friends tell me is accurate. Human nature is what it is. By the way, I'll bet my car is nicer than yours. ;)

[Solon]

No, I meant that while there was an element of LDS people who equate success with worthiness in the church, that the majority of the one-upsmanship and comparison stuff we witness among our congregations was human nature. I was then pointing to the small, mostly non-LDS and tight knit community of Park City that has similar problems if not worse of keeping up with the joneses as evidence that this isn't a problem exclusive to LDS people at all.

In other words, we are on the same page.

This is an element of Protestant Christianity - the work ethic, the idea that you can serve God through being a good businessman/merchant (rather than as a monk or a priest), and all that. It is foreign to Catholic Christianity, where (ideally) the poverty of Christ is something to be emulated.

While I doubt you'll find many examples in the words of LDS General Authorities, I think you can find versions of the Protestant understanding of business & commerce in the commercial ventures of the LDS church.

In the Protestant world view, God wants us to be rich.

http://books.google.com/books/about/God_Wants_You_to_Be_Rich.html?id=-VF7MwIsu6MC

[LA Ute]

This is an element of Protestant Christianity - the work ethic, the idea that you can serve God through being a good businessman/merchant (rather than as a monk or a priest), and all that. It is foreign to Catholic Christianity, where (ideally) the poverty of Christ is something to be emulated.

While I doubt you'll find many examples in the words of LDS General Authorities, I think you can find versions of the Protestant understanding of business & commerce in the commercial ventures of the LDS church.

In the Protestant world view, God wants us to be rich.

http://books.google.com/books/about/God_Wants_You_to_Be_Rich.html?id=-VF7MwIsu6MC

I remember hearing this idea expressed a lot when I was in high school and at the U., mainly from Salt Lake City East Benchers (never over the pulpit). In the main, think the idea has receded among LDS folks. I hope so, anyway.

[GUBA]

I remember hearing this idea expressed a lot when I was in high school and at the U., mainly from Salt Lake City East Benchers (never over the pulpit). In the main, think the idea has receded among LDS folks. I hope so, anyway.

Although it has never been diectly taught over the pulpit there is an ongoing subtext or undercurrent that holds those with wealth as having done something "right" to be blessed with their success and those who are not as well off have not been as valiant or they would also be so blessed. This subtext is most often expressed by the examples of individuals brought up in the course of teaching lessons or giving talks or in conversation. Also it is often reflected in the lionizing of those in more visible callings and who gets called. Not many janitors or manual laborers get called to be Stake Presidents or even Bishops for that matter.

[Solon]

Although it has never been diectly taught over the pulpit there is an ongoing subtext or undercurrent that holds those with wealth as having done something "right" to be blessed with their success and those who are not as well off have not been as valiant or they would also be so blessed. This subtext is most often expressed by the examples of individuals brought up in the course of teaching lessons or giving talks or in conversation. Also it is often reflected in the lionizing of those in more visible callings and who gets called. Not many janitors or manual laborers get called to be Stake Presidents or even Bishops for that matter.

I hear you, GUBA. My wife and I have gone the rounds on this, with me pointing out that Bishops/Stake Presidents are often higher-income kind of guys; and often corporate types who are used to business-world hierarchies & protocols.

She replies that her SP growing up was a police officer, and that those working in certain professions are more able than others to dedicate the necessary time to these big callings.

:shrug:

[GUBA]

I hear you, GUBA. My wife and I have gone the rounds on this, with me pointing out that Bishops/Stake Presidents are often higher-income kind of guys; and often corporate types who are used to business-world hierarchies & protocols.

She replies that her SP growing up was a police officer, and that those working in certain professions are more able than others to dedicate the necessary time to these big callings.

:shrug:

The argument about time to devote to a calling falls flat when one considers that a partner in a law firm (my current and 2 past SPs) spend considerably more time at their job than my very humble but less busy Janitor/custodian neighbor. My neighbor will likely never be called to be a SP given his occupation even though I think he would do a much better job than my current SP. He is always the first to volunteer and show up for service projects while the lawyers/accountants and Drs in the area rarely if ever show as they are always "catching up on work" at the office. Bro. Janitor is considered somehow less worthy of a big high profile calling based in large prt due to his humble occupation and his less flashy and polished appearance. This is my experience living on the East side of SLC.

[LA Ute]

I hear you, GUBA. My wife and I have gone the rounds on this, with me pointing out that Bishops/Stake Presidents are often higher-income kind of guys; and often corporate types who are used to business-world hierarchies & protocols.

She replies that her SP growing up was a police officer, and that those working in certain professions are more able than others to dedicate the necessary time to these big callings.

:shrug:

This is a subject that has always interested me. I don't come from wealth, but growing up in the Sugarhouse area -- the least affluent, westernmost part of SLC's East Bench -- it always seemed to me that SPs were wealthy men. (In other words, not from our ward, but from the wealthier wards in our stake. That Sugarhouse area was a great place to grow up in the 60s and 70s, BTW.) As teenagers trying to figure life out, we sometimes drew a correlation between being "mighty men of the Lord" and financial success.

I am now convinced that the phenomenon was and is primarily a function of geography. Certainly in Latin America SPs are not generally wealthy - at least in my experience. In CA I've seen a janitor stake president, although by the time he became a SP he had a janitorial business of his own. Still, he was 100% blue collar and was not wealthy at all. Every SP I've known has been a well-organized and successful person, which is probably more important. The kinds of people who are called tend to be the kinds who will be successful in their private lives. Having said that, I note that my last SP was laid off from his management position when his company was acquired, and struggled financially for most of his tenure as SP.

In informal chats with a friend who was an SP and later an area authority seventy, I was told that those extending the calls want to know what a potential SP does for a living primarily to be sure the church will not be ruining his life or career by calling him. That would explain why so many SPs are in lines of work that allow them lots of control over their schedules and are fairly secure in their jobs. (Partners in law or accounting firms - often their own firms - or in fairly senior positions.). My present SP is semi-retired. A prior SP was a pharmacist and ran his own shop. Another had his own solo photography business.

My guess is that away from certain areas with high concentrations of affluent Mormons, you won't see all that many wealthy SPs.

[Scratch]

I've also wondered about this undeniable trend. I think a large part of it is that so many SP/Bishop duties are administrative that people who have experience handling those types of issues in their professional lives are more prepared to handle (and not be overwhelmed by) them at church.

[LA Ute]

I've also wondered about this undeniable trend. I think a large part of it is that so many SP/Bishop duties are administrative that people who have experience handling those types of issues in their professional lives are more prepared to handle (and not be overwhelmed by) them at church.

I think there is a definite correlation there. On the other hand, my current SP had never been a bishop or in a stake presidency and had never run anything in business or in the church, other then serving as stake young men's president. He has turned out to be a much-loved leader. Then-Elder Uchtdorf called him. So go figure.

[LA Ute]

This willingness is admirable, but it might not be the most relevant thing for a stake president. Stake presidents have a lot of clerical, organizational, speaking, and leadership responsibilities. It is not necessarily the most christlike or the most spiritual who are called to lead stakes.

My last SP had been a bishop and then a high councilor for less thana year before he was called. He told me the job was the most lonely he'd ever had in the church. He never said anything, but I know that he made many sacrifices for the calling. SPs give up more of their lives than bishops do, as well as the regular personal interactions with members that other callings have. There's also a ton of pressure not to do anything that would offend anyone (which happens anyway, despite the SP's best efforts).

[Jarid in Cedar]

I hear you, GUBA. My wife and I have gone the rounds on this, with me pointing out that Bishops/Stake Presidents are often higher-income kind of guys; and often corporate types who are used to business-world hierarchies & protocols.

She replies that her SP growing up was a police officer, and that those working in certain professions are more able than others to dedicate the necessary time to these big callings.
:shrug:

That probably explains why I was the only physician who was not a bishop on the Medical Executive Committee(for the record, that is 7 other doctors, who were also bishop at the same time as they were holding a high time commitment volunteer position at the hospital).

[LA Ute]

That probably explains why I was the only physician who was not a bishop on the Medical Executive Committee(for the record, that is 7 other doctors, who were also bishop at the same time as they were holding a high time commitment volunteer position at the hospital).

An MEC of almost all bishops. What a concept.

[UteBeliever aka Port]

An MEC of almost all bishops. What concept.

Membership has its privileges.

[NorthwestUteFan]

That probably explains why I was the only physician who was not a bishop on the Medical Executive Committee(for the record, that is 7 other doctors, who were also bishop at the same time as they were holding a high time commitment volunteer position at the hospital).

LOL. This speaks more about your location than your profession. (p.s. good for you for serving on the MEC :thumbup:. )

Typically, the bishops I have been 1) highly organized, and 2) inspiring speakers. Success in life often follows those two traits, so we often see successful people in those positions.

My favorite two bishops were a quiet but brilliant former Submarine captain who thought temple attendance was so important to individuals that he happily overlooked an occasional glass of wine or cup of coffee in Temple Recommend interviews; and a Carpenter who certainly made less money annually than most of our ward members paid in tithing.

I recall feeling a definite 'keeping up without the Joneses' undercurrent in SLC, but that same feeling is not really present in my wards here in my Seattle. My current ward includes subsidized housing, large apartment complexes, suburban neighborhoods, and 7000 sq ft homes sitting on 12 acres of land. We are of very broadly diverse educational and employment backgrounds, and that is just perfect for me.

[LA Ute]

Your ward sounds a lot like mine, NWUF. I love that type of mix.

[LA Ute]

I've experienced the same place in various states outside of Utah. But it's not a Utah Mormon thing - it's a neighborhood thing. If your Seattle ward were small enough geographically to contain only one well to do neighborhood, you would see it.

Correct, this is a geographical thing. Wards outside of Utah cover a larger geographic area and that produces a congregation with a wider variety of people and incomes.

[Sullyute]

It is not necessarily the most christlike or the most spiritual who are called to lead stakes.

And this is where I have big issues. If the most humble and spiritual are not given local level leadership and higher level leadership (church HQ) come from those local leaders, what does that say about those in the highest callings?

I think we hear from a lot of great administrators during general conference but very few spiritual giants.

[LA Ute]

We tend to think that leadership callings are some kind of reward for righteousness. This is ridiculous, of course, but we can't shake it for some reason.

:clap:

[Sullyute]

Well, for the most part, the people magnifying callings are humble and spiritual. Those qualities are certainly important in leadership.

Excellent point and I do not disagree.



You illustrate a problem in our thinking, though. We tend to think that leadership callings are some kind of reward for righteousness. This is ridiculous, of course, but we can't shake it for some reason.

I did not say anything about righteousness. However, I agree that it is pretty ridiculous to make such assumptions as multiple past leaders have proven that leadership does not equal righteousness.

Plus if righteousness equaled leadership than LA Ute would have been called to that elusive bishop position a long time ago.



I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive, though you might have a different definition of spiritual giant than I do. Not sure what you think you would hear at general conference from a spiritual giant that you aren't hearing already.

I like a good pulpit pounder. But a charismatic orator does not equal a spiritual giant either. Maybe my expectation of flawed human octogenarians is set a little too high. [dunno]

[LA Ute]

Plus if righteousness equaled leadership than LA Ute would have been called to that elusive bishop position a long time ago.

You're forgetting holiness. I lack that and will never have enough of it to be bishop. For example, I swear when I am alone in my car.

[Sullyute]

You're forgetting holiness. I lack that and will never have enough of it to be bishop. For example, I swear when I am alone in my car.

Fetch is not a swear word.

[LA Ute]

Fetch is not a swear word.

Agreed. And it sounds flippin' awful.

[Solon]

You're forgetting holiness. I lack that and will never have enough of it to be bishop. For example, I swear when I am alone in my car.

LA, all kidding aside, a bishop like you would probably have me attending church regularly.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I honestly assumed LaUte had already been a bishop and/or higher. I learned something today, and I'm not even going to make it to church!

[Damage U]

So, do we need to start calling him Bishop Ute now?

[Sullyute]

It was the fast sunday before trek and we had lots of youth at the pulpit. One of the oldest ladies in the ward (and my favorite) got up and said despite what you might think I did not trek with brigham young.

My wife said that she also made the comment in relief society that the reason men have the priesthood is so women don't have to do ALL the work!

[UtahsMrSports]

It was the fast sunday before trek and we had lots of youth at the pulpit. One of the oldest ladies in the ward (and my favorite) got up and said despite what you might think I did not trek with brigham young.

My wife said that she also made the comment in relief society that the reason men have the priesthood is so women don't have to do ALL the work!

Id ask that lady to give me a call the next time she wakes up at 5 am to shovel snow off of 20-30 driveways. dont have to do all the work, give me a break. Even in jest, that is one of the dumbest things i have ever heard someone say in church, and thats saying something!

[Sullyute]

Id ask that lady to give me a call the next time she wakes up at 5 am to shovel snow off of 20-30 driveways. dont have to do all the work, give me a break. Even in jest, that is one of the dumbest things i have ever heard someone say in church, and thats saying something!

I think that you have illustrated her point quite well. There are numerous stories of men having to be guilted or scolded into exercising their "priesthood duty" to shovel walkways, set up chairs, help watch kids, etc.

[UtahsMrSports]

I think that you have illustrated her point quite well. There are numerous stories of men having to be guilted or scolded into exercising their "priesthood duty" to shovel walkways, set up chairs, help watch kids, etc.

How in the world did I "illustrate her point"? And women in the church don't do things out of social pressure to "fit in"? I am so tired of these blanket statements. The vast majority of people in the LDS church do things out of the goodness of their hearts and to suggest that one gender does more or does it for more pure reasons is BS, out and out BS. Sorry for the rant, but I am tired of stuff like this. I have to put up with ignorant statements like this almost on a weekly basis in sunday school and its getting old.

[Sullyute]

How in the world did I "illustrate her point"?

By equating priesthood with physical work. You didn't say I read scriptures with my kids, or lead the family with prayer, or give blessings to the sick, or planned the family home evening lesson. You went straight to removing snow from 30 driveways.



I am so tired of these blanket statements. The vast majority of people in the LDS church do things out of the goodness of their hearts

I whole heartedly agree with that statement.



to suggest that one gender does more or does it for more pure reasons is BS, out and out BS. Sorry for the rant, but I am tired of stuff like this.

Rants are great. This is obviously something that has had a personal impact on you. A quick quip to lighten a dull lesson can be funny to one, unfunny to another, and offensive to a third. You are correct that beyond genitalia there are few sweeping statements that can be made about one gender or another. We could all be a little more careful in what we say about each other, directly or indirectly.

[arizonaute]

My three year old was putting up his chair after primary. His female teacher says to me " he is such a good helper. he helps everyone who cant get their chairs up. " Her husband says " he is just practicing to be in elders quorum"

[Sullyute]

The kids came home from trek last week so we had about ten teenagers share their experience in sacrament. Despite all tbe grief that I read on the bloggernacle about trek the kids sure seem to have a great time and learn a few life lessons. It was a good meeting.

[Scratch]

I enjoyed the trek when they released live turkeys that we had to catch, kill, pluck the feathers off of, and cook in the ground. Apparently they put an end to that practice shortly thereafter.

[mUUser]

....What a weird activity.....

I've had two go. One that thought it was baaaaarely passable, thanks to an extra-cool "ma" and "pa". The other thought it was a slice of hell on earth....just a bizarre trip.

[Damage U]

I didn't know that there are others out there like me who dislike trek. What a weird activity. I'm sure I remember just as many kids having a good time and sharing their testimonies after normal youth conferences or campouts.

My thoughts as well. Its been awhile since I was in YM. The whole Trek thing was just starting when I was leaving YM. I do remember my dad and I built a bunch of handcarts for our ward/stake one year but that is about my only involvement I've had with it. Now that my nieces and nephews (my own kids soon after) are starting to reach the age of going, I'm hearing more about it. It seems our kids are getting very soft if they need to spend a few days dragging rocks around the back hills to get some appreciation for the pioneers.

[Rocker Ute]

I didn't know that there are others out there like me who dislike trek. What a weird activity. I'm sure I remember just as many kids having a good time and sharing their testimonies after normal youth conferences or campouts.

Earlier this year a stake person casually broached the subject about trek to which I replied, "I'm all for doing a trek that represents what your ancestors sacrificed to come to Utah. For me on my father's side that involves coming from Germany and taking a train across the US. On my mother's side it involves finishing by taking the youngest and prettiest wife and fleeing to Mexico. Which sort of Trek do you think I should do, Germany or Mexico?"

Strangely enough I didn't get asked to participate.

I'm with you, we did some youth conferences as a kid that gave me plenty of character and appreciation. I hear so many strange things that different groups do and bizarre extremes and it concerns me. Scratch's turkey story would seem made up had I not heard similarly weird stories.

And here is the thing, I'm always fearful that these things are producing fabricated spirituality. When you are exhausted and starving it is easy to get emotional. I've mentioned I used to be a pretty avid cyclist. I remember when I completed my first double century, about ten hours on a bike. At the end there was a couple of little girls with their mom who clapped and cheered for me rolling in and I broke down into tears. My buddy at the finish say,"Whoa what happened to you?" "There were some little girls cheering at the end and... It just meant a lot." My buddy says,"Alright, time to get some liquid and carbs into you my friend." I was goofy from exhaustion.

We joke about it now all the time. "Sniff... That sign just said welcome to Santa Clara... It just means a lot..."

Point being I don't want the youth mistaking similar type emotions for the spirit and most stories I hear recounted seem to be that way.

[Damage U]

So...It looks like no one learned anything in church today. Since I work on Sundays I have to live vicariously through you all. I guess I'll have to feed my soul on my own. :)

[NorthwestUteFan]

In F&TM a speaker mentioned a recent Mormon Newsroom press release claiming that Mormons do not and should not blindly follow the church leaders.

Then she spoke for three minutes about the blessings of strict obedience to every commandment...

[NorthwestUteFan]

I guess I understand what you are getting at, but there's really no contradiction there.

The contradiction comes when the word "commandment" is defined as "whatever the current church leadership says".

We also see the contradiction whenever anybody expresses a heterodox belief statement in Sunday School or EQ/HP/RS.

(Of course that may be a function of the culture as much as anything else, but if we are only allowed to think for ourselves so long as we come to the same conclusion as church leaders then we are still blindly obeying church leaders, despite the news release).

[NorthwestUteFan]

Heterodoxy is a belief other than the mainstream accepted or 'official' belief (the orthodoxy) . The term Heterodox carries an accusatory notion (as though the belief is 'heretical') and thus differs slightly from the term 'unorthodox'.

The 'orthodox' position of the lds church, and of most of the membership in general, is that gay people are essentially good but are 'sinning' by loving another person of the same sex. The further position is that same-sex marriage is abhorrent in the eyes of the Lord and will lead to the destruction of society.

My own position on the matter is that "Love = Love", and denying the same privilege to any two people who are in love and want to share their lives together is, in fact, immoral. This position is overwhelmingly heterodox in church and comments in support are often met with judgemental states and a chorus of 'harrumpfs' and 'Well! I never!' In the leadup to the last election (where Washington State voted on the issue of SSM) the Stake President read a letter in Sac Mtg and again in Priesthood which urged voters to "support candidates and positions which are in line with the church's beliefs and God's commandments". The underlying message was obvious, though not as blatant as in CA prior to Prop 8.

Does that clear it up?

[NorthwestUteFan]

I would change just one small part of this. The orthodox position is that gay people are sinning by having sex with a person of the same gender.

Actually, the church's 'orthodox' position is that gay people are sinning by having sex with somebody to whom they are not married (sexual relations outside of marriage)

At least that is the core of the temple covenant.

[Sullyute]

I heard this apocryphal story in church:

Boyd Packer was the keynote speaker at some meeting or training being held in the marriot center. Those in attendance were relatively few so as the meeting began Packer told those who were in the upper balcony to come down to the lower level during the opening song and first speaker.

So after the song, prayer, and first speaker, there were still a good number of people in the upper balcony. Packer got back up to the mic and said if you cannot follow the basic instructions that I just gave to you then you are not ready for the instruction I was going to give to you in my talk. He then walked off the stage and drove home.

Whether or not it is true, I liked the story.

[Two Utes]

I heard this apocryphal story in church:

Boyd Packer was the keynote speaker at some meeting or training being held in the marriot center. Those in attendance were relatively few so as the meeting began Packer told those who were in the upper balcony to come down to the lower level during the opening song and first speaker.

So after the song, prayer, and first speaker, there were still a good number of people in the upper balcony. Packer got back up to the mic and said if you cannot follow the basic instructions that I just gave to you then you are not ready for the instruction I was going to give to you in my talk. He then walked off the stage and drove home.

Whether or not it is true, I liked the story.

If true, it sounds like an asshole move. What about the people who followed his instructions?

[Sullyute]

If true, it sounds like an asshole move. What about the people who followed his instructions?

That was my first reaction but then I thought that had he stayed a spoke he probably wouldn't have really said anything that hasn't been said before or since (an assumption) but now they have this great story to pass on to others for the rest of their lives. I would choose that story over a stuffy talk any day.

[Senioritis]

So, I'm the Deacons quorum adviser, which sounds like someone who should have their Series 7 completed or something.

Anyway, it was scout camp this last week. Camp Steiner. People haven't cleaned the kybos up there since ColoUte was bossing scouting nerds around in the mid 90's. Great week, as far as scout camps go, and an absolutely remarkable testimony meeting on Friday night around the campfire. Just awesome.

So today, the Deacons took over testimony meeting, recounting the week and mostly the Friday night campfire. 14 Deacon testimonies, ranging, as you would expect, from tears-of-embarrassment awkward to surprisingly profound.

I totally got the vibe today. Totally. I understand, maybe just a little bit, people who aren't down with the Mormon church. I've got some of them close to me. But days like today keep me all the way in with both feet.

[chrisrenrut]

I can see Camp Steiner providing spiritual experiences. I saw a miracle happen there as a young scout. I saw a young man walk on water, when he attempted to jump into the lake. As soon as his feet touched the water, he somehow got back on the dock without submerging past his ankles.

[CardiacCoug]

I can see Camp Steiner providing spiritual experiences. I saw a miracle happen there as a young scout. I saw a young man walk on water, when he attempted to jump into the lake. As soon as his feet touched the water, he somehow got back on the dock without submerging past his ankles.

:blink:

What was the purpose of this supposed miracle? Just for the hell of it God pulls a stunt like that?

Good thing the kid wasn't diving in head first.

[LA Ute]

:blink:

What was the purpose of this supposed miracle? Just for the hell of it God pulls a stunt like that?

Good thing the kid wasn't diving in head first.

You need to have seen Scouts jumping into ice-cold water to get the joke. :D