My All-Time Utah Pure Assassin Team

[SoCalPat]

Taken purely from shooting percentages.

Thinking about Brandon Taylor and the ensuing topic of getting to the line, I took my obsession with stat geekdom a step further, and put together an all-time Utah team for pure shooters, dating back to the 1986-87 season, when the 3-point shot was introduced full-time into the college game. So here goes:

Point guard: Johnnie Bryant. He's the only Utah player with three seasons of 40 percent or better from 3. He's the all-time school leader in 3-point percentage (.440). Two of this three seasons rank in the top 10 single-season marks. And in his senior year, he was three FGs away from becoming the second 50-40-90 man in Utah history. That's 50 percent from the field (.492 for Bryant), 40 percent from 3 (.443) and 90 percent from the line (.922). That last mark would also be a Utah single-season mark except he didn't reach the 100 attempts needed to qualify, with only 64. Given the rarity of having a 100 FTA man on your team, I think it's an excessively high benchmark.

Shooting guard: Marc Jackson. Another player who flirted with the 50-40-90 mark, shooting 50-45-84 in his sophomore season of 2002-03. Even with a year off, returned to shoot 45-45-85 as a senior. Unlike JB, Sparc was a prolific FT shooter, with 253 FTAs in his final two seasons. His career .438 3PT is second in school history and his .844 FT is third all-time.

Small forward: Shaun Green. Green is the only single-season 50-50 player in school history, turning the trick in his sophomore year in 2006-07. He's also the only player to shoot 50 percent from 3 for a single season, making 64 of 125. His career .412 from 3 is good for 7th all-time and is just .001 behind Alex Jensen for the top career mark by a frontcourt player at the U.

Power forward: Josh Grant. I give Grant the edge here for one reason: the distinction of being the only 50-40-90 player in school history. And Grant didn't squeak into earning this distinction -- he destroyed the standard by going 53-44-92 as a senior. Side note: Jimmy Soto went 46-42-83 and had more FTAs than Grant, making this probably the greatest/most prolific shooting tandem in this era. Grant also flirted with this mark as a sophomore, going 52-41-80.

What about Keith Van Horn? Quite honestly, you could put KVH here and not be wrong (You could also accuse me of overcompensating on Grant's behalf for consistently underrating his career). KVH nearly hit the 50-40-90 mark as a true (52-44-78) as a junior (54-41-85) and as a senior (49-39-90). There is plenty of evidence to back both players.

Center: Andrew Bogut shot a better percentage. Luke Nevill shot an even better percentage and made it to the line more times to boot. But neither had Michael Doleac's inside-outside game. Doleac might be, in addition to Bryant, the second player with three 40 percent 3PT shooting seasons, but the website from which I got a lot of these stats -- http://www.sports-reference.com -- does not have Utah's single-season stats from Doleac's sophomore year. Otherwise, he shot 44 and 41 percent as a junior and senior, with obviously fewer attempts than JB. He was a 200-plus FTAs as a senior, making just under 81 percent of his attempts, while shooting 78 percent in a 170-plus FTA junior year.

Interesting Rivalry Sidenote: Jimmer Fredette never shot better than 50 percent from the field for a single season, and only shot better than 40 percent from 3 (his junior year) once. He was an 88 percent FT shooter, but never broke 90 percent. His best year was his junior year, when he shot 46-44-89. Fredette could do some incredible things with the ball, and his range within these players is superior. But when you consider from an accuracy standpoint that Fredette falls behind every Utah player mentioned here in multiple categories over multiple seasons, save for those involving a 7-0 center, it puts more into perspective Fredette's career.

[LA Ute]

Thanks, SCP. I did not appreciate how good Josh Grant was. I thought he was great, but didn't get the magnitude. (Partly because in those days it was hard to see the Utes a lot on TV, and I couldn't make it to many games.)

I have fond memories of Soto too. One game in particular stands out. It was a close game against BYU and Jimmy was fouled in an incredible pressure-packed situation. I think he had a 1-and -1 with only a few seconds to go, with Utah down 1 or 2 points. Soto was practically beaming. He knew he'd make the shots, and he did. I wish I could recall the details. I loved the guy's heart and was always glad to see the ball was in his hands.

[Jarid in Cedar]

It really points to how bad of a coach that Giac was when you consider he had Nevill, Green, and Bryant during his two lost seasons.

[SoCalPat]

It really points to how bad of a coach that Giac was when you consider he had Nevill, Green, and Bryant during his two lost seasons.

Offense was definitely not our problem under Ray. But defense was, and in his final year he couldn't win a close game to save his life.

[Scratch]

Great post, Pat. I do think that you need to give a little extra consideration for volume. For example, KVH averaged about 75 more shots per year than Grant, which is going to result in lower percentages. That's also why it's probably not fair to compare Jimmer to these guys. I'd be shocked if Jimmer in his prime couldn't shoot circles around Jackson, if they were taking the same shots.

Again, great post and great research. For someone who grew up watching these guys, I really appreciate the analysis.

[scottie]

Where would Nick Jackobon fit into your equations, socalpat? I loved that guy.

Also, as far as intangibles go, Andre Miller was off the charts, IMO... Majerus was also "off the charts" WRT intangibles, I think -- I loved that guy so damn much.

[FN Phat]

I once made out with Doleac's girlfriend. Not sure how that adds to the discussion but there really isn't a forum to share that jewel very often.

[utebehindenemylines]

Nick Jackobon

http://i.imgur.com/lXZQwWj.jpg (http://imgur.com/lXZQwWj)

[Diehard Ute]

Great post, Pat. I do think that you need to give a little extra consideration for volume. For example, KVH averaged about 75 more shots per year than Grant, which is going to result in lower percentages. That's also why it's probably not fair to compare Jimmer to these guys. I'd be shocked if Jimmer in his prime couldn't shoot circles around Jackson, if they were taking the same shots.

Again, great post and great research. For someone who grew up watching these guys, I really appreciate the analysis.


Dont know about your Jimmer assertion. He really has one year of large volume, his senior year, and he shot 39.4% From beyond the arc. His first 3 years were 128, 136 and 175 for 3P attempts. His last year 313. Those first 3 years he goes 33.6, 38.2 and 44 %. His best overall FG% was 48% his sophomore year. He never broke 46% his other 3 seasons.

He seems to be a player who doesn't really have a big change in accuracy depending on shoot volume, it just changes his points as he has more chances.

Compare his first 3 years to Bryant's 3 years and Bryant has more makes, more attempts and a higher percentage.

Jimmer's senior year is an outlier for many reasons, most notably his ability to hog the ball ;)

[LA Ute]

Jimmer's senior year is an outlier for many reasons, most notably his ability to hog the ball ;)

He may have also been the most indifferent defender in the history of D1 basketball.

[SoCalPat]

The thing that made Fredette more than just another undersized gunner was his ability to get to the line. He shot 250+ FTs as a junior and as a senior. He could shoot fine, but there are always short white guys who can shoot. His gift was getting to the line.

Absolutely. The long-range shots would get fans excited, but Jimmer's strength of his game was 15-feet in. I can't believe I missed the FTAs stat. That is absolutely sick for a guard. At Utah, those figures would rank 2nd (senior year) and 4th all-time single season, with only Billy McGill and Mike Newlin ahead of him, and they both played without the 3-point line. The only players Utah has in single-season FTAs top 10 are centers (Doleac, Nevill). And contrary to most, Jimmer's FT percentage went up the more he went to the line, as his career-best single season FT% of .894 came on a career-high 282 attempts.

I think Diehard was being TIC to some degree, but with that kind of efficiency, why would you let anyone else shoot unless they had a wide-open layup? Yeah, his defense was non-existent, but Utah never had a player who could get his shot off in the 3-point era like Fredette.

[SoCalPat]

Where would Nick Jackobon fit into your equations, socalpat? I loved that guy.

Also, as far as intangibles go, Andre Miller was off the charts, IMO... Majerus was also "off the charts" WRT intangibles, I think -- I loved that guy so damn much.

Jacobson comes in right behind Jackson, and although the differences are slight, they are noticeable. Nick shot 44-43-81 for his career; Jackson 46-44-84. Also, Jacobson had the benefit of four continuous years of play. Jackson NEVER played in consecutive seasons.

I might add that this thread is exactly why statistics don't always tell the whole story. They're good for a magazine takeout piece or short story, but never an entire book.

[SoCalPat]

Great post, Pat. I do think that you need to give a little extra consideration for volume. For example, KVH averaged about 75 more shots per year than Grant, which is going to result in lower percentages. That's also why it's probably not fair to compare Jimmer to these guys. I'd be shocked if Jimmer in his prime couldn't shoot circles around Jackson, if they were taking the same shots.

Again, great post and great research. For someone who grew up watching these guys, I really appreciate the analysis.

Agreed on KVH and volume, but he also didn't serve a mission or suffer a season-ending injury that he had to rehab from, either.

[U-Ute]

Maybe I'm just being sentimental, but I'd take Soto over Bryant at the PG.

Bryant may have the numbers, but Soto was one hell of a PG. He understood the game.

[U-Ute]

Jacobson comes in right behind Jackson, and although the differences are slight, they are noticeable. Nick shot 44-43-81 for his career; Jackson 46-44-84. Also, Jacobson had the benefit of four continuous years of play. Jackson NEVER played in consecutive seasons.

I might add that this thread is exactly why statistics don't always tell the whole story. They're good for a magazine takeout piece or short story, but never an entire book.

I think Jackson was a better defender too. For all his offensive heroics, Nick had lead feet on D.

[SoCalPat]

Maybe I'm just being sentimental, but I'd take Soto over Bryant at the PG.

Bryant may have the numbers, but Soto was one hell of a PG. He understood the game.

Not sentimental, just forgetful of the criteria I'm basing this on. :)

[Two Utes]

Taken purely from shooting percentages.

Thinking about Brandon Taylor and the ensuing topic of getting to the line, I took my obsession with stat geekdom a step further, and put together an all-time Utah team for pure shooters, dating back to the 1986-87 season, when the 3-point shot was introduced full-time into the college game. So here goes:

Point guard: Johnnie Bryant. He's the only Utah player with three seasons of 40 percent or better from 3. He's the all-time school leader in 3-point percentage (.440). Two of this three seasons rank in the top 10 single-season marks. And in his senior year, he was three FGs away from becoming the second 50-40-90 man in Utah history. That's 50 percent from the field (.492 for Bryant), 40 percent from 3 (.443) and 90 percent from the line (.922). That last mark would also be a Utah single-season mark except he didn't reach the 100 attempts needed to qualify, with only 64. Given the rarity of having a 100 FTA man on your team, I think it's an excessively high benchmark.

Shooting guard: Marc Jackson. Another player who flirted with the 50-40-90 mark, shooting 50-45-84 in his sophomore season of 2002-03. Even with a year off, returned to shoot 45-45-85 as a senior. Unlike JB, Sparc was a prolific FT shooter, with 253 FTAs in his final two seasons. His career .438 3PT is second in school history and his .844 FT is third all-time.

Small forward: Shaun Green. Green is the only single-season 50-50 player in school history, turning the trick in his sophomore year in 2006-07. He's also the only player to shoot 50 percent from 3 for a single season, making 64 of 125. His career .412 from 3 is good for 7th all-time and is just .001 behind Alex Jensen for the top career mark by a frontcourt player at the U.

Power forward: Josh Grant. I give Grant the edge here for one reason: the distinction of being the only 50-40-90 player in school history. And Grant didn't squeak into earning this distinction -- he destroyed the standard by going 53-44-92 as a senior. Side note: Jimmy Soto went 46-42-83 and had more FTAs than Grant, making this probably the greatest/most prolific shooting tandem in this era. Grant also flirted with this mark as a sophomore, going 52-41-80.

What about Keith Van Horn? Quite honestly, you could put KVH here and not be wrong (You could also accuse me of overcompensating on Grant's behalf for consistently underrating his career). KVH nearly hit the 50-40-90 mark as a true (52-44-78) as a junior (54-41-85) and as a senior (49-39-90). There is plenty of evidence to back both players.

Center: Andrew Bogut shot a better percentage. Luke Nevill shot an even better percentage and made it to the line more times to boot. But neither had Michael Doleac's inside-outside game. Doleac might be, in addition to Bryant, the second player with three 40 percent 3PT shooting seasons, but the website from which I got a lot of these stats -- http://www.sports-reference.com -- does not have Utah's single-season stats from Doleac's sophomore year. Otherwise, he shot 44 and 41 percent as a junior and senior, with obviously fewer attempts than JB. He was a 200-plus FTAs as a senior, making just under 81 percent of his attempts, while shooting 78 percent in a 170-plus FTA junior year.

Interesting Rivalry Sidenote: Jimmer Fredette never shot better than 50 percent from the field for a single season, and only shot better than 40 percent from 3 (his junior year) once. He was an 88 percent FT shooter, but never broke 90 percent. His best year was his junior year, when he shot 46-44-89. Fredette could do some incredible things with the ball, and his range within these players is superior. But when you consider from an accuracy standpoint that Fredette falls behind every Utah player mentioned here in multiple categories over multiple seasons, save for those involving a 7-0 center, it puts more into perspective Fredette's career.


Terrific post. Makes you appreciate how good Jackson, Grant and Soto were. Makes you also appreciate how underrated Green and Bryant were. Note that 3 of your top 5 were local kids. We are good when we get good local kids.

[Two Utes]

Thanks, SCP. I did not appreciate how good Josh Grant was. I thought he was great, but didn't get the magnitude. (Partly because in those days it was hard to see the Utes a lot on TV, and I couldn't make it to many games.)

I have fond memories of Soto too. One game in particular stands out. It was a close game against BYU and Jimmy was fouled in an incredible pressure-packed situation. I think he had a 1-and -1 with only a few seconds to go, with Utah down 1 or 2 points. Soto was practically beaming. He knew he'd make the shots, and he did. I wish I could recall the details. I loved the guy's heart and was always glad to see the ball was in his hands.


Plus, Soto's assist to turnover ratio was unreal. Behind Andre, he and Jackson were the best point guards in my life time who played at the U.

[SoCalPat]

Plus, Soto's assist to turnover ratio was unreal. Behind Andre, he and Jackson were the best point guards in my life time who played at the U.

2.54-1 as a senior to Miller's 1.98-1.

[Two Utes]

I think Jackson was a better defender too. For all his offensive heroics, Nick had lead feet on D.

I'm pretty sure Jackson came in second in voting for conference player of the year the last year he played for Majerus. And yet, Majerus chased him. Big Rick's reign on the Hill was clearly coming to an end at that time.

Jackson might be the most underrated player of all time to play at the U.

[UteBeliever aka Port]

I think Jackson was a better defender too. For all his offensive heroics, Nick had lead feet on D.

Overall, I agree, but by his senior year, Nick had developed into a pretty decent defender. I think saying he had lead feet is a bit harsh.

[SoCalPat]

I'm pretty sure Jackson came in second in voting for conference player of the year the last year he played for Majerus. And yet, Majerus chased him. Big Rick's reign on the Hill was clearly coming to an end at that time.

Jackson might be the most underrated player of all time to play at the U.

He was second-team all-MWC and was widely regarded as the top sixth man in the country. Agreed on how this was a clear-cut signal the sell-by date on Rick had arrived, but while Jackson's percentages were outstanding, his total numbers were not nearly good enough (9.3 PPG, 2.8 RPG, 2.3 APG) to warrant such high honors as POY.

[Scratch]

I'm pretty sure Jackson came in second in voting for conference player of the year the last year he played for Majerus. And yet, Majerus chased him. Big Rick's reign on the Hill was clearly coming to an end at that time.

Jackson might be the most underrated player of all time to play at the U.

From what I've heard, Jackson may have done more harm to the U's program than any other singular individual in the past 20 years. He was actively doing all that he could to create discontentment on the team, with recruits, with parents, boosters, etc. He decided that he was going to take Majerus down because Majerus didn't appreciate him enough, and he didn't care what impact that had on the program.

[LA Ute]

Maybe I'm just being sentimental, but I'd take Soto over Bryant at the PG.

Bryant may have the numbers, but Soto was one hell of a PG. He understood the game.

Soto had the intangible ability to make the rest of the team better. Andre was the master at that. Jackson was good at it too.

[SoCalPat]

From what I've heard, Jackson may have done more harm to the U's program than any other singular individual in the past 20 years. He was actively doing all that he could to create discontentment on the team, with recruits, with parents, boosters, etc. He decided that he was going to take Majerus down because Majerus didn't appreciate him enough, and he didn't care what impact that had on the program.

I have to believe these rumors are exaggerated. Otherwise, why would a first-year coach in Giacoletti -- who would have had better knowledge of Jackson's past, as related to him by others close to the program -- bring back such a cancerous element into his locker room? Also, Jackson's play on the floor was hardly that of a me-first player.

[Two Utes]

From what I've heard, Jackson may have done more harm to the U's program than any other singular individual in the past 20 years. He was actively doing all that he could to create discontentment on the team, with recruits, with parents, boosters, etc. He decided that he was going to take Majerus down because Majerus didn't appreciate him enough, and he didn't care what impact that had on the program.

That's not what I heard. I heard he met with Majerus after the season and asked him to stop calling him a c***. Majerus responded by telling him that he was a c*** and to take a hike.

Jackson came back after one year and led us to the sweet sixteen with Bogut. I'm having a hard time believing he torched the program and then agreed to valiantly return a year later. I do know that Run DMC was not happy with him (but that likely had a lot more to do with the fact that Drisdom wanted Jackson's minutes than anything else).

[SeattleUte]

That's not what I heard. I heard he met with Majerus after the season and asked him to stop calling him a c***. Majerus responded by telling him that he was a c*** and to take a hike.

Jackson came back after one year and led us to the sweet sixteen with Bogut. I'm having a hard time believing he torched the program and then agreed to valiantly return a year later. I do know that Run DMC was not happy with him (but that likely had a lot more to do with the fact that Drisdom wanted Jackson's minutes than anything else).

Whatever. The global outpouring of love for Majerus when he died was stunning, and this 2013 St. Louis U. team is a monument to his genius. Meanwhile, all the wusses who hated him are forgotten except by us geeks.

[SoCalPat]

Whatever. The global outpouring of love for Majerus when he died was stunning, and this 2013 St. Louis U. team is a monument to his genius. Meanwhile, all the wusses who hated him are forgotten except by us geeks.

Nobody affiliated with the U. would ever question Maji's coaching acumen. He was brilliant.

But he had also worn out his welcome at Utah. Coaches are hired to be fired is a cliche, but it's also gospel truth. We wanted Rick to be our Lavell Edwards, but let's face it -- Rick could never be our Lavell. We're talking about two entirely different types of personalities. If that's "hating" Majerus, so be it. But I think most reasonable people see the conclusion I'm trying to draw at, and the departure of Jackson largely underscores that. When you start experiencing a talent drain in your program, you have to make a change at the top.

[Two Utes]

Whatever. The global outpouring of love for Majerus when he died was stunning, and this 2013 St. Louis U. team is a monument to his genius. Meanwhile, all the wusses who hated him are forgotten except by us geeks.

He was a basketball genius and I don't hate him. However, as he progressed at Utah he became more abusive to everyone around him and I think it's nearly impossible to refute that.

That doesn't change the fact that he was a basketball genius. I also have to think that the 2013 St. Louis team is indeed a reflection of him except that on ohffense, they are playing a lot looser than he would generally allow--really the best of all worlds.

I'm simply relaying the story I heard.

[LA Ute]

I loved Majerus and what he did and I love looking at his sweater hanging there in the JMHC. I don't miss antics like his annual flirtations with other jobs, his taking a season off to care for his mother, and his resignation in mid-season based on a phony health claim. As SCP says, it was time. I wish RM could have stayed for the rest of his career but he chose not to.

[SeattleUte]

I loved Majerus and what he did and I love looking at his sweater hanging there in the JMHC. I don't miss antics like his annual flirtations with other jobs, his taking a season off to care for his mother, and his resignation in mid-season based on a phony health claim. As SCP says, it was time. I wish RM could have stayed for the rest of his career but he chose not to.

It was a complicated situation. Obviously Majerus had self-destructive tendencies. But the bottom line is Majerus' global reputation is unaffected, and he went and proved his good works and character at St. Louis.

When you really critically analyze this innuendo about Majerus' abuse, it seems like a lot of trivial stuff. Even much less than the swim coach's wrongs. If you want a catalogue of Majerus' bad deeds, I refer you to Monson's long Tribune article a couple of days before Majerus quit. Even the infamous statement to Allred refering to his disability had an ironic element and (except as interpreted by a total wuss) was obviously intended to mean that Majerus knew the kid was laboring with a disadvantage that was unique to him on the team, but still Majerus had the highest regard and expecations for him.

[Rocker Ute]

Kind of interesting actually. I spoke to a player who was at the end of Majerus's career at the U and was prodding him for some good 'Majerus Stories'. He was pretty open, and yes it was clear that things were quite rough playing for him, but he kept saying, "Most of the really bad stories happened before I got there... he had mellowed a lot when I was there from what I understand." I've tried to reconcile that with thing like Marc Jackson and Lance Allred. That was his take on things though. I should also note that he is one of the players who recognized that time as one of the hardest in his life, but also most rewarding and had deep respect for Big Rick. I should also note that some of these conversations happened before Rick passed away, so I wouldn't dismiss them as 'not speaking ill of the dead' sort of things.

Now a mellowed Majerus sounded anything but mellow to me. The truth is, I think there are certain kids who could take his fire and make it into something good, and others who would wilt under the pressure and who could fault them. I think Marc Jackson might have been one of these kids. I do think the pool of kids who could thrive under a guy like Majerus was shrinking quickly.

[San Diego Ute Fan]

I'm a little surprised there is no mention of Luther "Ticky" Burden in this conversation. He averaged close to 30 points per game, and this was long before the 3 point arc. He played the game 30 feet from the hoop and filled it up every night.


In 1975, his junior year, he averaged 28.7 points per game and set the Western Athletic Conference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Athletic_Conference) record for field goals in a season with 359.

He played only 3 years before departing to play pro ball, yet he is 5th in all time scoring for the U. I can't help but wonder what he may have done in 4 years, not to mention the number of points with 3 pointers in play.

His nickname is "Ticky" for the sound of nothing but net. Whenever the game was on the line, Ticky was absolute money. He was the go-to guy. I wish all of you could have seen him play in person as I did.

366

[SeattleUte]

Ticky played before the tree point shot. He'd have averaged 40 ppg. (I think he was over 30 his last season.) I love that guy, with the red tassles on his shoes and how he'd spin the ball.

[UteBeliever aka Port]

I'm a little surprised there is no mention of Luther "Ticky" Burden in this conversation. He averaged close to 30 points a game, and this was long before the 3 point arc. He played the game 30 feet from the hoop and filled it up every night.



He played only 3 years before departing to play pro ball, yet he is 5th in all time scoring for the U. I can't help but wonder what he may have done in 4 years, not to mention the number of points with 3 pointers in play.

His nickname is "Ticky" for the sound of nothing but net. Whenever the game was on the line, Ticky was absolute money. He was the go-to guy. I wish all of you could have seen him play in person as I did.

366

People forget about Ticky when buying into the Jimmermania.

*edit* Holy shit. Look at his arms. That guy is ripped!

[SeattleUte]

*edit* Holy shit. Look at his arms. That guy is ripped!

And it was before steroids.

[UtahsMrSports]

People forget about Ticky when buying into the Jimmermania.

*edit* Holy shit. Look at his arms. That guy is ripped!

Ticky was jimmer with a 41" vertical jump. he was sick!

[Mormon Red Death]

And it was before steroids.

They had steroids in the 70s...

[SeattleUte]

Ticky was jimmer with a 41" vertical jump. he was sick!

He averaged 30 ppg in the ABA till his knee gave out. EDIT: I was wrong, he quit after fighting with the Coach, Bill Musselman, who was a nut.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Burden

[San Diego Ute Fan]

Ticky played before the tree point shot. He'd have averaged 40 ppg. (I think he was over 30 his last season.) I love that guy, with the red tassles on his shoes and how he'd spin the ball.

Absolutely agree. He could create space on his own. He had the prettiest jump shot and most graceful ball spin I've ever seen. Anywhere.

[SeattleUte]

They had steroids in the 70s...

Only communist athletes took them. That's what my dad told me.

[GarthUte]

Only communist athletes took them. That's what my dad told me.

SU, whether or not your Dad truly believed this, that comment struck me as one of the funniest things you've ever posted. Please continue with these kind of posts. It shows a side of you that rocks.

[hostile]

My younger brother finished the '90-'91 season shooting 100% from the 3-point line. Granted, he only had one attempt (against Wichita State, I think)

[Scratch]

My younger brother finished the '90-'91 season shooting 100% from the 3-point line. Granted, he only had one attempt (against Wichita State, I think)

Wow, I still remember off the top of my head that the score of that game was 95-48 because I really wanted the U to double up the score and was wildly disappointed that they fell short.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

There is an abundance of Jimmer talk in this thread. SU I'm not sure if this qualifies as a "Speaks volumes" or "Sorry, just being honest!" can I get a ruling?

[GarthUte]

There is an abundance of Jimmer talk in this thread. SU I'm not sure if this qualifies as a "Speaks volumes" or "Sorry, just being honest!" can I get a ruling?


How much of it is coming from Y fans vs. U fans?

[LA Ute]

How much of it is coming from Y fans vs. U fans?

Looks like that former BYU player was only brought up as an example of how hype sometimes overshadows real accomplishment.

[SoCalPat]

I'm a little surprised there is no mention of Luther "Ticky" Burden in this conversation. He averaged close to 30 points per game, and this was long before the 3 point arc. He played the game 30 feet from the hoop and filled it up every night.

The game that was played in the 1970s isn't anything close to the game played since 1987. Not only was there no 3-point line, there was no shot clock either. That's not a knock against Ticky, who would be a fabulous player in any era. But for a statistical comparison's sake, it's unfair to take athletes from different eras and judge them against one another.

[Ex'dute]

In starting this thread, Pat said he was only going from the begininning of the 3-point era. But I'd hate to forget a couple of deadly shooters I remember from the before the 3-point line from the mid 1980s -- Manny Hendrix and Kelvin Upshaw. Both had range and could have been deadly the 3-point line had existed in college at the time.

[SoCalPat]

Bibbins clocks a 45-46-85 season. Not Johnnie Bryant-like, but right up there with the greats and the greatest shooting numbers since I posted this thread five years ago. Brandon Taylor as a junior clocked a near-identical 45-44-86, but had every advantage JB didn't -- he'd been in the program for two years, he wasn't moving up in competition like Bibbins was, he played more minutes and took much fewer shots. Taylor also regressed to 40-34-82 as a senior -- one of the greatest shooting falloffs I can ever recall in an upperclassman.

[Nice Marmot]

This was a great old thread to read through.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Sedrick Barefield was on fire tonight! He deserves his spot on the all-time assassin team after this!

[SoCalPat]

Sedrick Barefield was on fire tonight! He deserves his spot on the all-time assassin team after this!

Jimmy Carroll once went 6-for-6 from 3 in a half against Fresno State. Should we put him on there as well?

FWIW, here are Barefield's numbers:

42-39-74 last year

39-34-87 this year

Sed is more gunslinger than he is assassin.

My over-under on Planet Sed's PPG next year is 17.5, and he's certainly capable of hitting the over during the non-con. We'll probably need it.

[UBlender]

Jimmy Carroll once went 6-for-6 from 3 in a half against Fresno State. Should we put him on there as well?

FWIW, here are Barefield's numbers:

42-39-74 last year

39-34-87 this year

Sed is more gunslinger than he is assassin.

My over-under on Planet Sed's PPG next year is 17.5, and he's certainly capable of hitting the over during the non-con. We'll probably need it.

I was thinking last night that perhaps the best thing that could come out of this NIT run is it (further?) establishes Sed as the alpha dog on next year's team. I think he's had a tendency to coast at times but having him go into the off-season and next season with the mentality that it is his team and he's going to be the one to get a bucket or get himself to the line when things are tight I think that would be a big deal. Obviously that sort of mentality has to be tempered with smart shot selection but I think he would be well-served to get away from any mindset where he's going to passively wait for the seniors to get theirs first.

[LA Ute]

I was thinking last night that perhaps the best thing that could come out of this NIT run is it (further?) establishes Sed as the alpha dog on next year's team. I think he's had a tendency to coast at times but having him go into the off-season and next season with the mentality that it is his team and he's going to be the one to get a bucket or get himself to the line when things are tight I think that would be a big deal. Obviously that sort of mentality has to be tempered with smart shot selection but I think he would be well-served to get away from any mindset where he's going to passively wait for the seniors to get theirs first.

I thought the knock on Sed was his inconsistency. Do you tthink he can overcome that?

[sancho]

I thought the knock on Sed was his inconsistency. Do you tthink he can overcome that?

I think it's part of who he is. That's why I'll take the under on Pat's 17.5.

BUT, at this time last season, I thought Rawson would never have an impact in a meaningful game.

Next season will be interesting. Lots of new faces. It's impossible to set any kind of expectation right now.

[Rocker Ute]

The title of this thread jars me each time. I keep reading it as, "My All Time Pure Asian Team". If its that, I nominate Ma Jian.

[Ma'ake]

I was thinking last night that perhaps the best thing that could come out of this NIT run is it (further?) establishes Sed as the alpha dog on next year's team. I think he's had a tendency to coast at times but having him go into the off-season and next season with the mentality that it is his team and he's going to be the one to get a bucket or get himself to the line when things are tight I think that would be a big deal. Obviously that sort of mentality has to be tempered with smart shot selection but I think he would be well-served to get away from any mindset where he's going to passively wait for the seniors to get theirs first.

That's my hope. If Sed can become 2/3 of the bulldog Bibbins is this year, he'll have a helluva year. I think/hope Sed is a late bloomer, from a mental toughness standpoint. Bibbins has had to fight for everything he's ever accomplished in basketball, probably going back to the 5th grade. I hope Sedrick watches tons and TONS of film of this year's team, focusing on all the techniques, tricks and the general mental approach to the game Justin Bibbins brought. J-Bib might be the best gift the coaching staff could have given Barefield...if he takes the offer.

At 6-2, it's an uphill climb to being an All-PAC12 guard next year, for Barefield, especially having to deal with length and athleticism - like Mattise Thybulle at UW - present on every other roster in the league.

But the guy before him was 6 inches shorter, so there's no excuse.

[chrisrenrut]

The title of this thread jars me each time. I keep reading it as, "My All Time Pure Asian Team". If its that, I nominate Ma Jian.

Wat Misaka

[UBlender]

I thought the knock on Sed was his inconsistency. Do you tthink he can overcome that?

He'll always be prone to inconsistency, but I think he can get to a point where on an "off night" he can still get himself to the line and manufacture enough points to get 12-15 on those nights whereas this year he was liable to barely score if his three pointers weren't falling.

[sancho]

he can still get himself to the line and manufacture enough points to get 12-15 on those nights whereas this year he was liable to barely score if his three pointers weren't falling.

If he could get to the line, it would change everything. It would also be huge if he were able to finish a little better when attacking the basket.

[Applejack]

The title of this thread jars me each time. I keep reading it as, "My All Time Pure Asian Team". If its that, I nominate Ma Jian.

This deserves a LOL.

[SeattleUte]

I think Wat Misaka would qualify; I think he was pure Japanese. He’d be MVP on the All-Time Pure Asian team.

[Diehard Ute]

I think Wat Misaka would qualify; I think he was pure Japanese. He’d be MVP on the All-Time Pure Asian team.

I don’t believe you were meaning to use “pure”


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[SeattleUte]

I don’t believe you were meaning to use “pure”


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I meant to parody what Rocker and SoCal said.